Annoyance of the day:

[lirazel]

People who flat-out say that Buffy didn't love Spike despite the fact that she said she did.

She said she did. The only reason we have to believe that she didn't is one thing Spike said, and since when do people believe anything that comes out of Spike's mouth? Boy can speak the truth that no one else will, but he also says a ton of b.s., and everyone knows it.

I just hatehatehatehatehatehate all of these people sitting around telling a woman (and it would be a woman--if a man said, it I think a lot less people would disagree with her) who finds it nearly impossible to say the words "I love you" even to people she regards as family (remember "Intervention"? That's canon) that she doesn't love someone when she said she did.

I don't have a problem with people quibbling over the nature of her love. You can argue that she didn't love him romantically or as much as she did Angel or whatever (I would disagree with the first one and re: the second, I would remind you that, as the_royal_anna says, we don't love in amounts. We love in ways). That's legit. But to say, flat-out, that she didn't love him even though she says she did takes agency away from Buffy in a way that I am entirely uncomfortable with and that DRIVES ME CRAZY, OKAY. If she had said she loved Riley (she didn't, did she?), I would be pissed at people saying she didn't love him, either. Uuuugh why does this annoy me so much?

Comments

[mollivanders.livejournal.com]

Uuuugh why does this annoy me so much?

Because you care about the characters. It drives me nuts when people say Sawyer and Kate didn't love each other and were just "fun make-out buddies." Honestly - I could write pages that nobody would ever read because 'they didn't love each other' is not canonically true and it's just...nasty, really, to try and devalue their choices like that. They said it! I'm not going after Kate's love for Jack even though she didn't ever say she loved him out. Actions speak louder than words sometimes. Even if the characters are fictional, they represent more than that to us. They represent us and our choices and the challenges we face in our real lives. A woman at the Browncoat Ball and I were talking about ships - she ships Kaylee/Jayne and I was curious why (since I 'ship' barely anything in Firefly in the classic sense) and she was talking about how Kaylee and Jayne speak to her and she sees parts of herself in the characters.

I know that's true for me, and your connection with both Buffy and Spike is pretty strong. It's only natural for you to want their emotional development acknowledged and respected.

we don't love in amounts. We love in ways

this is so true <3

[penny-lane-42.livejournal.com]

You're awesome. Just generally speaking. And specifically here. :D

[gabrielleabelle.livejournal.com]

This is one time I shamelessly pull out authorial intent. Joss said Buffy totes loved Spike in the commentary. Nay-sayers can take it up with him.

[penny-lane-42.livejournal.com]

It's a good card. But even if you don't play it, there is canonically no reason to disbelieve her words. There are plenty of cases in canon where we're given reason to believe that the person speaking isn't being truthful or is wrong or whatever. I'm all for acknowledging those times. But in this case we have zero reason to believe that. There is no evidence in the story--except for Spike's words, and he's not exactly reliable as a speaker--to discount what he says. To pat Buffy on the head and say, "Oh, sweetie, we know you don't really mean that. I know your emotions better than you do" is patronizing and insulting to the character.

UGH!

[pamsblau.livejournal.com]

I'm getting tired of this debate too so i'm just staying away from it nowadays. Occasinally i do posts like the "I love you" one to boost my mood but that's all. People will always find something to say and prove(to theirselves!) the opposite despite all the sweet Spike/Buffy moments in season 7 and Buffy actually having said the words herself.

Friends don't sleep in each other's arms like in Touched nor do they get flamy hands.*sigh*

[penny-lane-42.livejournal.com]

I'm totally over it except when I stumble across it somewhere I didn't expect and the person just flat-out says, "No, she never loved him." Everything else I can deal with. Whatever.

[eleusis-walks.livejournal.com]

I'm pretty sure most people who say that (I have said it on occasion) are offering the opinion you noted at the end, which is that they believe she loved him as a friend/companion/etc but was not in love with him. I have never seen anyone say that she didn't have any love for him whatsoever. Like, I've never seen that. I'm honestly curious where you have?

[penny-lane-42.livejournal.com]

Reason for the post.

[miss-mishi.livejournal.com]

Honestly I believe that Buffy wasn't in love with anyone in the entire run of the show. She certainly loved people but I don't think she was in love with them? I mean that's my opinion, anyway.

[eleusis-walks.livejournal.com]

IAWTC. I think being the Slayer made her incapable of really giving that to someone. I love the Holden sequence in "Conversations With Dead People" because on some level it's basically her admitting this.

[miss-mishi.livejournal.com]

oh also buffy said she loved riley but she never said it to him afaik

[penny-lane-42.livejournal.com]

Aha. Well, then, I believe her. I knew she didn't say it to him, but I couldn't remember if she said it to someone else.

[next_to_normal]

if a man said, it I think a lot less people would disagree with her

We don't have to wonder! In S5 and S6, Spike tells Buffy he loves her, and Buffy repeatedly says he doesn't. Granted, there are some fans who claim it was an obsession, not love, but that's almost always because he's a vampire and they buy that soulless beings can't love at all. In general, I'd say "Buffy loves Spike" is WAY more disputed than "Spike loves Buffy."

And pretty much word to everything else you've said.

[shipperx.livejournal.com]

I'm going to go out on a limb and say I don't think this necessarily boils down to gender bias so much as the specific characters involved.

I mean, over on Mad Men, Don claims he's fallen madly in love with Megan and absolutely no one (save Megan) believes him. Most believe that he believes it... while Peggy and Joan make fun of it while smoking in Joan's office(and that was a great scene.)

[diebirchen.livejournal.com]

You! On the button!!

[penny-lane-42.livejournal.com]

*curtsies*

[xlivvielockex.livejournal.com]

I see this on Tumblr all the time from a certain segment of fans. I think we all know. And it drives me nuts. It's driven me nuts for YEARS. They do the same thing to Cordy/Angel despite the fact that Angel says to Gwen he loves Cordelia, Cordelia tells Angel they were in love. What more do you need?

I actually said something about this to eilowyn I think, on Tumblr, about how some people need really concrete exchanges because they just can't process subtext or indirect feelings. They need:

Spike: I love you, Buffy.
Buffy: I love you, Spike.

Anything less, they just can't seem to get it. Again, like you, it drives me nuts. Like what more do you need? How dare you sit there and tell Buffy that what she feels isn't what she feels. It reminds me of everytime I get told that by men.

[penny-lane-42.livejournal.com]

about how some people need really concrete exchanges because they just can't process subtext or indirect feelings. They need:

Spike: I love you, Buffy.
Buffy: I love you, Spike.

No kidding.

How dare you sit there and tell Buffy that what she feels isn't what she feels. It reminds me of everytime I get told that by men.


EXACTLY.

And I seriously don't know what to do/say with people who say Angel and Cordy didn't love each other. WHAT. WHAT WHAT WHAT.

[snickfic]

Preach it, sister.

[penny-lane-42.livejournal.com]

I'm picturing you with Anya fierce!face and loving it!

[gryfndor-godess.livejournal.com]

People who flat-out say that Buffy didn't love Spike despite the fact that she said she did.

It's not only insulting to Buffy the character and to Spuffy fans, it's just...stupid. Really, all they're accomplishing is showing to the world that they're bitter, petty, and ignorant.

I don't have a problem with people quibbling over the nature of her love. You can argue that she didn't love him romantically or as much as she did Angel or whatever

Thank you for including this. I get so frustrated by implications that anyone who doesn't think it's flat-out romantic love obviously "didn't watch the same show" or "doesn't understand Buffy and Spike."

[penny-lane-42.livejournal.com]

YES. I always end up rolling my eyes at those people.

I mean, I think it was romantic and I think both of them make that pretty clear. But obviously other people don't. *shrug* And I'm over getting worked up about that, most days.

[crackers4jenn.livejournal.com]

I think Buffy's "I love you" is easy to misinterpret, because, well, straight away Spike disputes it and, OH YEAH, there's an entire Hellmouth collapsing in on them.

But I think: uh, okay, so what does Buffy have to lose then? Why lie if she has no way in knowing she's going to make it out herself?

Spike blew off Buffy's "I love you" in the same way he blew her off in End of Days, when he asks her if she was there with him, and she answers she was, and then later she goes on to say maybe when... For the reason he did not believe her when she said in Never Leave Me that she believes in him. Or why, after she gives him the amulet and hints at a sleepover, he dons some fake pride and attempts to brush her off, only to quickly crumble and admit he wants her to say.

It's him and his hang-ups and his insecurities and guilt. Just look at him in Angel season 5. He can't even work up the courage to go to Buffy, too worried that after everything, he will not be good enough. And that is not a reflection of Buffy's love for him. Not at all.

I would say, maybe what Buffy felt for Spike was not a romantic love, not at that point, but as she told Angel, he was in her heart. And that, to me, means that when she said "I love you", she said it with the conviction of fully knowing and acknowledging that. Because when I hear her say it, I don't hear appeasement, or pity. She's not doing it to make that death thing go down easy for him. And, honestly, I think she does it for herself as much as for him. It's almost like she frees herself by admitting it.

AND, BASICALLY. Joss said so himself on the commentary that Buffy meant it. VALIDATION ENOUGH.

[penny-lane-42.livejournal.com]

I SHALL FRAME THIS COMMENT.

[unbridled-b.livejournal.com]

I think a lot of fans took Spike's response (No, you don't. But thanks for saying it.) at face value. However, I thought that comment said more about Spike's own feelings (particularly his feelings about himself) than Buffy's.

Personally, I think there were a lot of indications that Buffy loved him in season seven. Maybe it wasn't a romantic, demonstrative type of love, but that doesn't make it any less genuine.

[penny-lane-42.livejournal.com]

It just baffles me that they would start to believe him then, when the past two seasons have been all about how he doesn't have some special insight into Buffy's soul.

However, I thought that comment said more about Spike's own feelings (particularly his feelings about himself) than Buffy's.

Exactly.

S7 is my love story. :D

[laeria.livejournal.com]

Heh. "No, you don't." is my least favourite line in all of BtVS (and one and a half seasons of AtS, which is where I'm stranded due to over-business, woe). I've decided to retcon it utterly, I don't even care.

If Spike had just said "Thanks for saying so," that would have established his soulful self-loathing, the I'm-not-worthy reverence or whatever that he's developed for her. This, though? This is Spike telling Buffy that she doesn't love, doesn't feel, that she loves wrongly, misunderstands herself - which is what all the men around her keep doing. Xander, Giles, Riley. Parts of fandom keep doing it too. And it's the opposite of Spike's usual very important role - of telling Buffy to embrace her emotions honestly. You know, even the ones he only thinks she harbours (a death wish (arguable), an attraction to men who hurt her). He cherishes her emotions instead of denying them. It's kinda the point of him.

In conclusion, coherence is not among my many virtues today, and more people need to accept that Buffy loves people and that that's okay. Which is why I ship Buffy/Tara a little bit - "It's okay if you love him. And, Buffy, it's okay if you don't." It was important to say so, and nobody else ever did.

[penny-lane-42.livejournal.com]

UM YES.

♥

[blackfrancine.livejournal.com]

I hate it too! Because. Grrr. A woman isn't entitled to name her own emotions. What is with that? Why would she lie? To send Spike off with a pat on the head? I understand the logic from Spike's perspective--that she didn't love him before, can never love him because he's a monster, and therefore she's lying to make him feel better about joining oblivion. But does that even sound like Buffy? Sugar coating things for people? Especially Spike? She's been giving him tough love all season. I think she'd think it's more of an insult to their relationship to lie to him (that's certainly what she seems to think in season 6).

And for Pete's sake! Flamey hands of love! If Angel coming back from the hell dimension was a sign of the universe bending to their love, then so was healing fire bursting in Spike and Buffy's clasped hands. I'm sorry. But it's just the truth.

[penny-lane-42.livejournal.com]

THANK YOU.

[rebcake.livejournal.com]

My feelings are complicated. Not like Buffy-complicated, but still...

Absolutely Buffy loved Spike. There is all sorts of evidence to support that. However, I'm of the opinion that Buffy loved Spike even when she was denying it, which kinda blows my cred in the "we should take what women say at face value" department. At least in this case. (I love unreliable narration, so I'd hate to lose that in storytelling due to reasons of feminism.)

I'm pretty inclusive in my definition of love, and am always surprised at how many things people seem to want to discount as "real" love. Like we need less of it or something. However, I really do see shipperx's point about the disconnect between Buffy loving (she did) and Buffy choosing love, which is more debatable.

Spike's opinion on the matter is inadmissible as evidence about her true feelings. It isn't exactly unimportant to the narrative, as it would have been nice if he'd felt worthy enough to accept her love and follow up when he came back, but him arguing with her doesn't make her feelings any less real.

[penny-lane-42.livejournal.com]

I'm all for unreliable narration. I think when it becomes unfeminist is when there is no textual evidence to suggest that the person is lying. And here...there isn't. It's canon how difficult it is for Buffy to say, it's canon that she's been taking care of him all season. Nothing exist to undermine her meaning it.

I'm pretty inclusive in my definition of love, and am always surprised at how many things people seem to want to discount as "real" love. Like we need less of it or something.

AMEN.

Spike's opinion on the matter is inadmissible as evidence about her true feelings. It isn't exactly unimportant to the narrative, as it would have been nice if he'd felt worthy enough to accept her love and follow up when he came back, but him arguing with her doesn't make her feelings any less real

I agree with this completely.

[dampersnspoons.livejournal.com]

I love you, penny-lane-42.

In case anyone asks, I did say it-and meant it, and here is proof. If proof is still not enough, like, say, video or something, then the only alternative is to take your pointer finger and thumb and flick the forehead of the idiot who doesn't know how common sense works.

Carry on.

[penny-lane-42.livejournal.com]

Hee! ♥

[aerintine.livejournal.com]

I haven't read through the comments so I'm probably echoing others here. But I cannot even engage with that attitude. It's nonsense.

Buffy loved Spike.
The sky is blue.

That is all.

[blackfrancine.livejournal.com]

I love you and your words of wisdom.

[marketchippie.livejournal.com]

Of course she loved him.

This fandom debate is so silly, because the nitpicking you're venting about is just that—nitpicking, and you can't try to invalidate one ship with it without invalidating both. See, I'm firmly in the camp that Buffy was never ~~in love~~ and am willing to fight anyone on this (Bangels, I've got my eye on you) but he was the person she cared about second-most in the world. I respect and enjoy the way they work in s7 with limits, but not the post for that: things we have covered even though I stop being viscerally invested in the ship because it is lovely and it is profound and it is a process in which there is a great deal of craftsmanship and meaning; s7 Spuffy nearly (SO NEARLY) always makes perfect sense because of it, right up to his ending, which is the most perfect close-the-arc business ever.

Aw, I'm rambling. Well, you won't mind, I don't think?

[penny-lane-42.livejournal.com]

Of course I do not mind because even when we aren't on the same page, your brain works in such delightful ways that I always want to hear about it! :D

But hells yes to the nitpicking.

[beloved-77.livejournal.com]

Whenever anyone claims that Buffy didn't love Spike when she specifically said she did, I ask, "Since when does she say or do *anything* just to make him happy?" :-P She doesn't. Ever. Besides, Joss says she did, and he wrote it, so there.

[penny-lane-42.livejournal.com]

Exactly!

[aisalynn.livejournal.com]

Ugh. Yes, it's frustrating. Especially if you were to talk away the whole "I love you." at the end--and really, what? I mean that's a big deal for her to say something like that! How can you possibly disregard it?--there are still moments before that where her love for him is referenced: saying to Angel that he is in her heart implies some kind of love, if not romantic, and when talking to Willow in First Date she says something along the lines her not being "still in love with Spike," which of course means that she was in love with him at some point. To still say that she never loved Spike at all after that would seem to me just pure, idiotic stubbornness.

[eilowyn.livejournal.com]

So I started reading this post (and sifting through ALL THOSE COMMENTS - JEEZ LAUREN, HAVE A PARTY WITHOUT ME OR SOMETHING!) right before my rhetoric class, and it occurred to me - the answer is all about reading the different types of rhetoric Buffy uses. She's not only about the spoken language - SMG's physicality and acting see to that - but also about all those unspoken looks and gestures. That, too, is a type of rhetoric - unspoken language - and should be counted just as important as those dozens of I love yous she gave Angel way back when they were both so young. The abrupt change from how she looks at Spike - as if her entire soul were in her eyes - to how she looks at other characters speaks for itself. It's in this form of rhetoric that makes the scenes with Angel at the end of season 7 so off - suddenly this is a Buffy who's not Buffy, and she knows she's some devoluted version of herself around him, so she sends him away.

[ever-neutral.livejournal.com]

Well. I think we know where I stand on this.

[samsom.livejournal.com]

The parts of fandom who deny she loved him, even faced with her blunt "I love you" backed up by JOSS saying she meant it, coupled with the FLAMING HANDS JOINED TOGETHER PALM TO PALM WITH FINGERS INTERLOCKED are living on another level that you can't reach or understand. Whatever.

She said it. She meant it.

And.

FLAMING HANDS. You can't get more symbolic than that. Other shippers would sell a kidney for that kind of visual symbolism, for God's sake. It doesn't symbolise "I love you, but not romantically, okay, it's more of a 'you're in my heart' but not really I'm just saying this to make you feel better on your way to the Light". It symbolises, hangs a lantern on, spotlights, the love that poets write about. *throws up hands*

[jamalov29.livejournal.com]

I've read the whole thread and it was a great discussion.♥

As for the statement of some part of fandom, I stopped getting frustrated about them a long time ago,or I would have lost all my hair. ;)
I know what I saw and felt. I believe B/S is an awesome love story and people are free to believe otherwise as long as they don't try to convince me that I'm wrong.