lirazel | Annoyance of the day:

People who flat-out say that Buffy didn't love Spike despite the fact that she said she did.

She said she did. The only reason we have to believe that she didn't is one thing Spike said, and since when do people believe anything that comes out of Spike's mouth? Boy can speak the truth that no one else will, but he also says a ton of b.s., and everyone knows it.

I just hatehatehatehatehatehate all of these people sitting around telling a woman (and it would be a woman--if a man said, it I think a lot less people would disagree with her) who finds it nearly impossible to say the words "I love you" even to people she regards as family (remember "Intervention"? That's canon) that she doesn't love someone when she said she did.

I don't have a problem with people quibbling over the nature of her love. You can argue that she didn't love him romantically or as much as she did Angel or whatever (I would disagree with the first one and re: the second, I would remind you that, as

the_royal_anna says, we don't love in amounts. We love in ways). That's legit. But to say, flat-out, that she didn't love him even though she says she did takes agency away from Buffy in a way that I am entirely uncomfortable with and that DRIVES ME CRAZY, OKAY. If she had said she loved Riley (she didn't, did she?), I would be pissed at people saying she didn't love him, either. Uuuugh why does this annoy me so much?

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I think Buffy's "I love you" is easy to misinterpret, because, well, straight away Spike disputes it and, OH YEAH, there's an entire Hellmouth collapsing in on them.

But I think: uh, okay, so what does Buffy have to lose then? Why lie if she has no way in knowing she's going to make it out herself?

Spike blew off Buffy's "I love you" in the same way he blew her off in End of Days, when he asks her if she was there with him, and she answers she was, and then later she goes on to say maybe when... For the reason he did not believe her when she said in Never Leave Me that she believes in him. Or why, after she gives him the amulet and hints at a sleepover, he dons some fake pride and attempts to brush her off, only to quickly crumble and admit he wants her to say.

It's him and his hang-ups and his insecurities and guilt. Just look at him in Angel season 5. He can't even work up the courage to go to Buffy, too worried that after everything, he will not be good enough. And that is not a reflection of Buffy's love for him. Not at all.

I would say, maybe what Buffy felt for Spike was not a romantic love, not at that point, but as she told Angel, he was in her heart. And that, to me, means that when she said "I love you", she said it with the conviction of fully knowing and acknowledging that. Because when I hear her say it, I don't hear appeasement, or pity. She's not doing it to make that death thing go down easy for him. And, honestly, I think she does it for herself as much as for him. It's almost like she frees herself by admitting it.

AND, BASICALLY. Joss said so himself on the commentary that Buffy meant it. VALIDATION ENOUGH.

I SHALL FRAME THIS COMMENT.

It's him and his hang-ups and his insecurities and guilt. Just look at him in Angel season 5. He can't even work up the courage to go to Buffy, too worried that after everything, he will not be good enough. And that is not a reflection of Buffy's love for him. Not at all.

THIS. SFM.

I would say, maybe what Buffy felt for Spike was not a romantic love, not at that point, but as she told Angel, he was in her heart.

Well, but she says that in response to asking if Spike was her "boyfriend" which... LOL. Yes, my centuries old vampire lover is my boyfriend. I think she said he was in her heart because "boyfriend" didn't define them and she didn't have the words to express it. And no way was she going to tell Angel that she loved Spike because well, she has trouble saying it, she certainly wouldn't want to say it to Angel, and I'd like to think she'd tell Spike first after all they've been through.

I'll confess, I don't see how romantic love is excluded from their dynamic. It's not platonic love or familial love--it's love with sexual feelings and deep abiding intimacy. I don't know how else to describe that but as "romantic".

I don't see how romantic love is excluded from their dynamic.

I don't think it's excluded from their dynamic, I just don't think it was what propelled Buffy's words. Or her feelings.

I put "not at that point" in addition to my words because I feel like Buffy definitely has romantic feelings for Spike. Big ol' duh. But I don't think she really ever had the chance to shift through and reflect on those emotions in season 7. Maybe she got a taste of feeling them in later episodes--when Spike's holding her in Touched, when they walk across the basement towards each other in Chosen--but I don't see ROMANCE being the underlying force behind her ILU.

Which is not to say that I don't think that's a romantic moment. Because it is, and we're obviously meant to think so (OH MAN, THE FLAMING HANDS!) - I guess my point of view is this: when I watch that scene, and I see her smile when she says it, it reminds me of the very lost shot of the series. Buffy wears that same peaceful smile. Maybe it's a little different, and definitely the reasons for it are not the same, but in both instances Buffy is coming to terms with something huge. In the case of the Hellmouth, she is being set free, and in terms of her "I love you", she is freeing herself.

Definitely parts of romance there. But, again, I just don't think it's a pivotal motivator. Buffy loves Spike in a lot of ways, you know?

(Also, LOOK AT THIS. Ugh, Spike's face. Sometimes I half-think he believed her. That it might've been easier for him to go out in a blaze of glory denying her love, because it was easier to pass it off as a bone being thrown his way than acknowledge that he meant something of worth to her.)

And that is not a reflection of Buffy's love for him. Not at all.

YES.

And, honestly, I think she does it for herself as much as for him. It's almost like she frees herself by admitting it.

Gah! Yes! Absolutely. I think it's really hard for Buffy to say the words--but I do think once she's done it, she's freed herself of some sort of burden. Like, if the words had never been said, if the feelings had just been there, in her throat, when he died, his death would've been much harder for her to bear.

But more than just being a way to bear his death--the admission of love seems to me like this big moment of acceptance. (And I think I'm having an epiphany right now as I type this.) Buffy had been fighting her own identity for SO LONG. And she'd take one step toward accepting herself and two steps back. Spike is in many ways the part of herself that she had the most trouble accepting. Her dark side. The slayer. But also more than that--he's also the part of Buffy, the girl, that she has trouble accepting. So, when she can finally face down that she loves him--it's an acceptance of herself as well.

Which, frankly, makes it all the more important that we believe her when she tells Spike that she loves him. Because if we don't believe her--we're pushing her backwards. Away from accepting and loving herself.

I am totally fangirling you right now, FYI.

it's an acceptance of herself as well.

Yes.

That's the beautiful symbolism that's presented with her loving him and his death destroying the hellmouth. Learning to love the demon destroys the projected demonic within, the manifestation of the demonic, of the psyche, that is the hellmouth.

Ha! I wonder if I read your post and somehow it got digested into my subconscious--and now BAM! it comes out.

Learning to love the demon destroys the projected demonic within

YES. I love this. I don't know how you always manage to say such pithy, pretty things.

Hey, that's totally the difference between reading something and agreeing, "that makes sense," and taking it in yourself and coming to that realization on your own. Hearing versus knowing. Like seeing your math teacher work out a calculus problem on the board isn't the same as you figuring it out yourself when you're at home with your textbook.

YES. I love this. I don't know how you always manage to say such pithy, pretty things.

Sometimes I get lucky! I love that symbolism, the Hellmouth as the psyche and loving the demon being what destroys it. Not only love, but faith and belief in the goodness of darkness. The "dark place" is not evil, we don't have to demonize it and marginalize it. We must embrace it.

Also! Check me out down here. I'd love to hear your ~thoughts~.

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