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Annoyance of the day:
People who flat-out say that Buffy didn't love Spike despite the fact that she said she did.
She said she did. The only reason we have to believe that she didn't is one thing Spike said, and since when do people believe anything that comes out of Spike's mouth? Boy can speak the truth that no one else will, but he also says a ton of b.s., and everyone knows it.
I just hatehatehatehatehatehate all of these people sitting around telling a woman (and it would be a woman--if a man said, it I think a lot less people would disagree with her) who finds it nearly impossible to say the words "I love you" even to people she regards as family (remember "Intervention"? That's canon) that she doesn't love someone when she said she did.
I don't have a problem with people quibbling over the nature of her love. You can argue that she didn't love him romantically or as much as she did Angel or whatever (I would disagree with the first one and re: the second, I would remind you that, as![[livejournal.com profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/external/lj-userinfo.gif)
the_royal_anna says, we don't love in amounts. We love in ways). That's legit. But to say, flat-out, that she didn't love him even though she says she did takes agency away from Buffy in a way that I am entirely uncomfortable with and that DRIVES ME CRAZY, OKAY. If she had said she loved Riley (she didn't, did she?), I would be pissed at people saying she didn't love him, either. Uuuugh why does this annoy me so much?
She said she did. The only reason we have to believe that she didn't is one thing Spike said, and since when do people believe anything that comes out of Spike's mouth? Boy can speak the truth that no one else will, but he also says a ton of b.s., and everyone knows it.
I just hatehatehatehatehatehate all of these people sitting around telling a woman (and it would be a woman--if a man said, it I think a lot less people would disagree with her) who finds it nearly impossible to say the words "I love you" even to people she regards as family (remember "Intervention"? That's canon) that she doesn't love someone when she said she did.
I don't have a problem with people quibbling over the nature of her love. You can argue that she didn't love him romantically or as much as she did Angel or whatever (I would disagree with the first one and re: the second, I would remind you that, as
the_royal_anna says, we don't love in amounts. We love in ways). That's legit. But to say, flat-out, that she didn't love him even though she says she did takes agency away from Buffy in a way that I am entirely uncomfortable with and that DRIVES ME CRAZY, OKAY. If she had said she loved Riley (she didn't, did she?), I would be pissed at people saying she didn't love him, either. Uuuugh why does this annoy me so much?
no subject
THIS. SFM.
I would say, maybe what Buffy felt for Spike was not a romantic love, not at that point, but as she told Angel, he was in her heart.
Well, but she says that in response to asking if Spike was her "boyfriend" which... LOL. Yes, my centuries old vampire lover is my boyfriend. I think she said he was in her heart because "boyfriend" didn't define them and she didn't have the words to express it. And no way was she going to tell Angel that she loved Spike because well, she has trouble saying it, she certainly wouldn't want to say it to Angel, and I'd like to think she'd tell Spike first after all they've been through.
I'll confess, I don't see how romantic love is excluded from their dynamic. It's not platonic love or familial love--it's love with sexual feelings and deep abiding intimacy. I don't know how else to describe that but as "romantic".
no subject
I don't think it's excluded from their dynamic, I just don't think it was what propelled Buffy's words. Or her feelings.
I put "not at that point" in addition to my words because I feel like Buffy definitely has romantic feelings for Spike. Big ol' duh. But I don't think she really ever had the chance to shift through and reflect on those emotions in season 7. Maybe she got a taste of feeling them in later episodes--when Spike's holding her in Touched, when they walk across the basement towards each other in Chosen--but I don't see ROMANCE being the underlying force behind her ILU.
Which is not to say that I don't think that's a romantic moment. Because it is, and we're obviously meant to think so (OH MAN, THE FLAMING HANDS!) - I guess my point of view is this: when I watch that scene, and I see her smile when she says it, it reminds me of the very lost shot of the series. Buffy wears that same peaceful smile. Maybe it's a little different, and definitely the reasons for it are not the same, but in both instances Buffy is coming to terms with something huge. In the case of the Hellmouth, she is being set free, and in terms of her "I love you", she is freeing herself.
Definitely parts of romance there. But, again, I just don't think it's a pivotal motivator. Buffy loves Spike in a lot of ways, you know?
(Also, LOOK AT THIS. Ugh, Spike's face. Sometimes I half-think he believed her. That it might've been easier for him to go out in a blaze of glory denying her love, because it was easier to pass it off as a bone being thrown his way than acknowledge that he meant something of worth to her.)