Annoyance of the day:

[lirazel]

People who flat-out say that Buffy didn't love Spike despite the fact that she said she did.

She said she did. The only reason we have to believe that she didn't is one thing Spike said, and since when do people believe anything that comes out of Spike's mouth? Boy can speak the truth that no one else will, but he also says a ton of b.s., and everyone knows it.

I just hatehatehatehatehatehate all of these people sitting around telling a woman (and it would be a woman--if a man said, it I think a lot less people would disagree with her) who finds it nearly impossible to say the words "I love you" even to people she regards as family (remember "Intervention"? That's canon) that she doesn't love someone when she said she did.

I don't have a problem with people quibbling over the nature of her love. You can argue that she didn't love him romantically or as much as she did Angel or whatever (I would disagree with the first one and re: the second, I would remind you that, as the_royal_anna says, we don't love in amounts. We love in ways). That's legit. But to say, flat-out, that she didn't love him even though she says she did takes agency away from Buffy in a way that I am entirely uncomfortable with and that DRIVES ME CRAZY, OKAY. If she had said she loved Riley (she didn't, did she?), I would be pissed at people saying she didn't love him, either. Uuuugh why does this annoy me so much?

Comments

[rebcake.livejournal.com]

My feelings are complicated. Not like Buffy-complicated, but still...

Absolutely Buffy loved Spike. There is all sorts of evidence to support that. However, I'm of the opinion that Buffy loved Spike even when she was denying it, which kinda blows my cred in the "we should take what women say at face value" department. At least in this case. (I love unreliable narration, so I'd hate to lose that in storytelling due to reasons of feminism.)

I'm pretty inclusive in my definition of love, and am always surprised at how many things people seem to want to discount as "real" love. Like we need less of it or something. However, I really do see shipperx's point about the disconnect between Buffy loving (she did) and Buffy choosing love, which is more debatable.

Spike's opinion on the matter is inadmissible as evidence about her true feelings. It isn't exactly unimportant to the narrative, as it would have been nice if he'd felt worthy enough to accept her love and follow up when he came back, but him arguing with her doesn't make her feelings any less real.

[penny-lane-42.livejournal.com]

I'm all for unreliable narration. I think when it becomes unfeminist is when there is no textual evidence to suggest that the person is lying. And here...there isn't. It's canon how difficult it is for Buffy to say, it's canon that she's been taking care of him all season. Nothing exist to undermine her meaning it.

I'm pretty inclusive in my definition of love, and am always surprised at how many things people seem to want to discount as "real" love. Like we need less of it or something.

AMEN.

Spike's opinion on the matter is inadmissible as evidence about her true feelings. It isn't exactly unimportant to the narrative, as it would have been nice if he'd felt worthy enough to accept her love and follow up when he came back, but him arguing with her doesn't make her feelings any less real

I agree with this completely.

[boot-the-grime.livejournal.com]

Absolutely Buffy loved Spike. There is all sorts of evidence to support that. However, I'm of the opinion that Buffy loved Spike even when she was denying it, which kinda blows my cred in the "we should take what women say at face value" department. At least in this case. (I love unreliable narration, so I'd hate to lose that in storytelling due to reasons of feminism.)

I agree. But the Chosen scene is different... It's the series finale, the end of heroine's emotional journey... It doesn't make sense for her to be in denial or lying in that moment.

[rebcake.livejournal.com]

I should probably clarify that I totes believe Buffy in Chosen. If you had any doubt about my stance, or it mattered. There's just other times that I think she's lying (mostly to herself). In Chosen she is filled with love and facing her feelings honestly and openly. It's beautiful. I can see why people would say that it wasn't of huge importance for her, because she wasn't going to have to live with the consequences, but that discounts that it's Buffy, for whom uttering those three little words are a BIG F-ING DEAL.

The sad thing is that Spike ought to know that, but he's so uncertain of her feelings — and perhaps even exhausted by watching her struggle with something that is like not-breathing to him — that he undercuts her big revelation. In some ways, I don't blame him, as I think his confusion about her feelings comes partly from being lied to about their non-existence for so long. But it's still sad.

[boot-the-grime.livejournal.com]

Oh, I agree 100%.