lirazel | Annoyance of the day:

People who flat-out say that Buffy didn't love Spike despite the fact that she said she did.

She said she did. The only reason we have to believe that she didn't is one thing Spike said, and since when do people believe anything that comes out of Spike's mouth? Boy can speak the truth that no one else will, but he also says a ton of b.s., and everyone knows it.

I just hatehatehatehatehatehate all of these people sitting around telling a woman (and it would be a woman--if a man said, it I think a lot less people would disagree with her) who finds it nearly impossible to say the words "I love you" even to people she regards as family (remember "Intervention"? That's canon) that she doesn't love someone when she said she did.

I don't have a problem with people quibbling over the nature of her love. You can argue that she didn't love him romantically or as much as she did Angel or whatever (I would disagree with the first one and re: the second, I would remind you that, as

the_royal_anna says, we don't love in amounts. We love in ways). That's legit. But to say, flat-out, that she didn't love him even though she says she did takes agency away from Buffy in a way that I am entirely uncomfortable with and that DRIVES ME CRAZY, OKAY. If she had said she loved Riley (she didn't, did she?), I would be pissed at people saying she didn't love him, either. Uuuugh why does this annoy me so much?

Flat | Top-Level Comments Only

I'm sorry. I know we're bound to disagree on this, but some of your arguments confuse me.

There's no threshold visibly crossed anywhere. No place where we can actually point to and say the change happened here. It's all one timeline. One universe. One continuous sequence of events. So, I honestly do not know where that particular line was drawn or crossed in her eyes. And more often than not...Buffy wasn't saying.

Characters' relationships often develop and change without explicit verbiage stating as such. We didn't have a moment in S6 where Buffy says, "I'm so angry at Willow for bringing me back," but she demonstratively is. Willow spends a large part of the later seasons (excluding S7) feeling bitter towards Buffy, but that's not really explicitly stated until the Dark Willow arc. Much like Buffy's developed feelings for Spike aren't explicitly stated until, you know, Chosen.

Character changes rarely come with a line of demarcation. That's not how people work.

But people are saying "That was season 6 and this is season 7 and things are different now" and I'm asking how exactly are they different... because I do think that it's one sequence of events. It's all in one continuum.

So, exactly, there is no line of demarcation.

That's the point I'm trying to make.

People keep insisting "but that was season 6 and this is season 7." I'm asking that if it really matters what season it's in, point to me where--on screen within the 'verse-- the seasonal difference is matters. What distinguishes it? What marks some upending of Buffy's estimation of Spike's status relative to herself? We can't assume a radically different mindset in 7 than 6 based on "well it's a different season now." [I'm not, BTW, arguing that she doesn't say that he's better than he was. She does in fact state that quite clearly. But that statement doesn't necessarily mean that she thinks he's on the same playing field as herself. It's possible to think he's changed and grown... and to still think "beneath me") But people say "but that was Season 6 and this was Season 7" and I want to understand what makes that demarcation important within the 'verse to the characters as opposed to the DVD packagers? I'd argue... it doesn't.

And I'm unsure how that sequence of the debate gets lost in translation. It's liking telling someone playing tennis and saying "You take the north court. I'll take the south" then asking them "why are you on the north side of the court?" If the argument is that a character's views have changed because of which season they're in, I'm wondering what makes that distinction. What makes them separate? If Buffy's estimation of Spike's status relative to herself (as opposed to himself) is radically different based on "that was Season 6 and this is Season 7" where was that tipping point? What distinguishes this transition and when did it change to the opposite of what it previously was. If it's the seasonal distinction, how do we know that? If not, then there is no distinction based on season. And if we're saying "Well she changed this view and does see him on the same social/moral level of herself," what tipped her into the view quite opposite of the one she'd had only months (I'm not arguing that she doesn't recognize a change relative to himself. I'd say that "Never Leave Me" supports that quite well." it's relative to herself that I wonder about. If she really changed her view that much when was the tipping point and how could we tell?)

Crap. That was me. Why does my home computer insist on doing that? (Posting me as anonymous when I've been signed on) Grr!

But people are saying "That was season 6 and this is season 7 and things are different now" and I'm asking how exactly are they different... because I do think that it's one sequence of events. It's all in one continuum.

...if people are saying that, it's a shorthand way of referring to the changes in Buffy's behavior towards Spike as shown between S6 and S7.

Buffy's behavior towards Spike does show a substantial difference between the two seasons. People have listed out the many, many actions she takes on his behalf in these comments. She never would have done any of that for him in S6.

The change is there. The seasons give us an easy way to reference them. It's like saying Buffy was much more emotionally open and innocent in S1 and S2 than in S7. Of course everything is one sequence of events on a continuum, but when we're discussing the show, we rely on reference points in order to clarify what we're talking about. This means making references to seasons and/or episode titles.

For an in-season change, we could look at Spike's development within S5. Since it's all in the same season, we have to reference different episodes (FFL, Crush, Intervention, The Gift) in our discussions about his arc.

The change in Buffy's attitude towards Spike happens to occur between the two seasons, thus we reference S6 and S7 when discussing it.

I don't know that we're ever really going to get anywhere in this because, to be really honest, it's not that I really want to believe my position or that I don't happily going along with yes, there's a change. And it's better and more open. And there's a reason to write post-Chosen and post-NFA fanfic. So most of my energy -- outside of debate -- isn't directed in needing or having to claim that no, she didn't change how she thought of him relative to himself. That debate position only arises out of feeling the need to play devil's advocate when being told that it's all very clear and obvious, when I think that it's less than perfectly clear or so many people wouldn't see it and it wouldn't still be something in question and debate so very many years later. That and it's trying to put what was shown in the comic (where she distinctly does say "beneath") in some sort of context where it makes some sort of sense. (Though I also think that the comics are crap and when they're over I have every intention of ignoring them. Still, much like the need to pick at scabs, I find myself needing to understand why in the frell Joss would write a scene that has Buffy describing Spike as being both beneath Angel and 'only convenient' and the fact that he wrote it makes me wonder what he intended by the stuff that happened in Season 7.) None of that really though matters to me on a day to day fannish sense where, as stated, I generally do and will continue to ignore it. Otherwise I'd have to completely stop writing Spuffy.

Okay.

As I've said many, many times, I'm not trying to change your opinion on anything. I just found your argument about lines of demarcation very odd and so poked it to try to suss it out. I get now that the root of the argument is that you aren't perceiving a significant change in Buffy's behavior, but I think your argument that people are arbitrarily separating S6 from S7 is faulty.

Honestly, I'm tired. It's fiction. We all believe what we believe, saw what we saw, and feel what we feel. It's all okay. Nothing real actually depends on any of it.

Ah...I wasn't arguing about beliefs but about your choice of argumentative rhetoric...

But okey-dokey. Get some rest.

Next time I'll follow my own advice and stay out of it because waaaaaaaaaaaaaay back at the beginning of all this I said that if I elaborated it would only cause trouble.

But on the plus side, cookies. :)

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