Annoyance of the day:

[lirazel]

People who flat-out say that Buffy didn't love Spike despite the fact that she said she did.

She said she did. The only reason we have to believe that she didn't is one thing Spike said, and since when do people believe anything that comes out of Spike's mouth? Boy can speak the truth that no one else will, but he also says a ton of b.s., and everyone knows it.

I just hatehatehatehatehatehate all of these people sitting around telling a woman (and it would be a woman--if a man said, it I think a lot less people would disagree with her) who finds it nearly impossible to say the words "I love you" even to people she regards as family (remember "Intervention"? That's canon) that she doesn't love someone when she said she did.

I don't have a problem with people quibbling over the nature of her love. You can argue that she didn't love him romantically or as much as she did Angel or whatever (I would disagree with the first one and re: the second, I would remind you that, as the_royal_anna says, we don't love in amounts. We love in ways). That's legit. But to say, flat-out, that she didn't love him even though she says she did takes agency away from Buffy in a way that I am entirely uncomfortable with and that DRIVES ME CRAZY, OKAY. If she had said she loved Riley (she didn't, did she?), I would be pissed at people saying she didn't love him, either. Uuuugh why does this annoy me so much?

Comments

[gabrielleabelle.livejournal.com]

I don't have much to say about the general meat of your comment (I think S7 is ambiguous enough for a few different readings) but this kinda struck me as skewed:

leaping onto Riley the moment he arrives, eager to date Robin, giggling and smiling like a school-girl the moment that Angel arrives in town.

Point on Angel. She didn't immediately leap onto Riley, though. She's largely oblivious to him up until he starts showing an interest. Even then, it takes her several episodes to convince herself that she might enjoy being with him. Likewise with Robin. She'd been working with him at the school for many, many episodes before he asks her out. And she's decidedly ambivalent about the might-be date, not "eager".

After Angel, Buffy pretty much always takes some time to waffle on the dating thing.

[shipperx.livejournal.com]

She's largely oblivious to him up until he starts showing an interest

I was unclear. I meant in "As You Were"

[gabrielleabelle.livejournal.com]

Ah, gotcha. I think the depression context (coupled with the fact that it's an old flame, not a new potential love) makes that an abnormal situation. The norm for Buffy is to take her time sorting out her feelings (as she did when first dating Riley and when Robin asked her out to dinner).

[rebcake.livejournal.com]

I'm largely with shipperx on this, in that from Spike's perspective Buffy is unambiguously affectionate with all of her old flames (except him) and seems open to the idea of romance with someone, so long as it's not him. His perspective is inaccurate, IMO, but he has sound reasons for thinking what he does.

[gabrielleabelle.livejournal.com]

From my reading, shipperx wasn't talking about Spike's perspective, so I don't see how that's relevant.

Unless I'm grossly misunderstanding, she was positing the argument that Buffy is often eager to jump into relationships and enthusiastically does so, using Angel, Riley, and Robin as examples. I provided counter-arguments because I see Buffy as being the exact opposite after Angel: She's often hesitant and reluctant to enter into a new relationship.

[shipperx.livejournal.com]

Well, yeah, it's Spike's POV too. I do think he sees the way that she reacts to others and then notices that she was never that way with him. And, in the end, I think that did matter to him.

For myself it wasn't that per se. It's not that she did those things. I'm not judging her by that behavior or even expecting her to behave the same with Spike. It's that given their history, I needed something with greater clarity than we were given by Mutant Enemy. This by extension becomes Buffy. But it's really Mutant Enemy. They never stopped hedging their bets. They weren't willing to take that stand. So we get blackouts and Bangel cookie crumbs and a "Someday she'll tell you" that turned out to be something that was undercut by having spent a substantial chunk of the episode making sure that no Bangel had to believe it, and Spike didn't either. It made the denoument less edifying than I had hoped.

[gabrielleabelle.livejournal.com]

Well, yeah, it's Spike's POV too. I do think he sees the way that she reacts to others and then notices that she was never that way with him. And, in the end, I think that did matter to him.

Obviously, but Spike's POV wasn't the point of discussion in your original comment that I replied to.

For myself it wasn't that per se. It's not that she did those things. I'm not judging her by that behavior or even expecting her to behave the same with Spike.

But she didn't do those things. She didn't quickly jump into new relationships. She hemmed and hawed about each and every new potential love interest.

It's that given their history, I needed something with greater clarity than we were given by Mutant Enemy. This by extension becomes Buffy. But it's really Mutant Enemy. They never stopped hedging their bets.

Yes, I understand your feelings there. I'm not trying to persuade you otherwise. I'm disagreeing with some of your assertions about canon, specifically about how Buffy approached new relationships.

[shipperx.livejournal.com]

But it isn't about how she entered relationships. It's how she views men. She looks at Riley and feels that he's someone she should love, so she tries. She looks at Robin and thinks, "Yeah, that's the kind of guy I should be with. I guess I can try." She looks at Angel and she sees all sorts of wildly unrealistic fantasies that have nothing to do with reality, but she sees them and pursues them and she throws over everything to grab at them one last time (even if it involves frakking the world). And even when there's not much there, she's willing to say "Maybe someday".

When she looks at Spike she hesitates. And whenever anyone asks, she denies. It's not that she doesn't feel a connection, it's that she looks at him and time and again reacts as "this isn't the guy I want to have a connection with."

And when Chosen came around I want to believe that's a pivot point. That when their hands touch and burn and she says the words, that it means that she crossed some internal threshold. I've wanted to beleive that and have written a lot of fanfic based on that premise.

But it's also why the Joss-written issue suck-ass "reunion" in the comics blew it away for me. Because if she can talk about Spike that way to Angel, behind Spike's back... then it really retroactively sticks it's tongue out at what I had hoped was signified by Chosen. If she can't respect Spike even now in that Joss-written scene in the comic, it throws into question what Joss meant by Chosen. I can't really help that it makes me feel that way.

[gabrielleabelle.livejournal.com]

She looks at Riley and feels that he's someone she should love, so she tries.

No, she doesn't. At first, she didn't think anything. Then she spent most of Something Blue convincing herself that he's the type of guy she could like. Even then, she has reservations going in. She spends an entire other episode trying to talk herself - and him - out of it (Doomed).

She looks at Robin and thinks, "Yeah, that's the kind of guy I should be with. I guess I can try."

Again, she doesn't. They work together for most of the first half of the season with no romantic inclinations on her part. He asks her to dinner. She is visibly unsure on if it's a date or not, and she's not certain on her feelings if it is a date. Then the date fizzles and she doesn't think twice about him.

When she looks at Spike she hesitates.

Which is in line with how she handled Scott, Riley, Ben, and Robin. Her hesitation with Spike is more substantial because they have a not-so-friendly past which brings along some baggage that can be difficult to get past. But it's not uncharacteristic for Buffy to pause and reflect and reconsider and think twice (or three times or more) before entering into a new relationship.

I can't really help that it makes me feel that way.

I'm not trying to change how you feel. I'm simply disagreeing with your assessment of Buffy's character in canon. Yes, I understand you're dissatisfied with how canon played out. That's not something that can be argued with.

[shipperx.livejournal.com]

I'm not talking just about going in. I'm talking about her running after Riley in "Into the Woods" or climbing like a bean-pole in "As You Were." At some point or another she became quite convinced that he was someone she should feel for, someone she should run after, Someone she should want back. And she's downright eager to go on that first date. And Angel.. well, she turns fourteen whenever around.

All of that deals with her expectations. And Spike... He's the guy she talks to when she's depressed to quote Joss-dialog he's her "dark place" , buthe's also the guy she always denying having a romantic relationship with to her friends. It's her view of him and her view of what she thinks she wants and needs. And while I had hoped that there was a point in all of Spike's tribulations in Season 7 where she came to see as on the same playing field, and I base my Post-Chosen fiction on that thought, given what Joss has since written, the way he's portrayed his version of a follow up... no, I don't have great confidence about what he may have intended me to take away from "Chosen". I know what he said. And I know what I saw. And I know what he has written now. And all I can do is try to put it in some context, that I realize differs from yours (and from what I wish it would be). But I have my hopes of what could've happened and what I hoped it meant, and I have fanfic and fanfic preferences based on that. But I also have this whole world of doubt about how Joss intended it and how what he writes shades what I did see.

I don't expect you to agree. That's okay.

[rebcake.livejournal.com]

But shipperx is almost always talking about Spike's perspective! That's her thing! And a lovely thing it is, too! ♥

I do think you misunderstood (though not grossly) her argument. This is the way that I interpreted what she said about Spike vs. those other guys:

When comparing Buffy's reaction to Spike and her various other beaus in the later seasons (Riley, Wood, and Angel, in order of appearance), Buffy generally is much warmer in her dealings with them than him. When Riley comes back, she walks out on her job to do whatever he asks, no questions. When Wood asks her to dinner, she accepts, wonders for a few hours if it's a trap, then goes on to moan voluptuously about the pears. When Angel shows up, it's smoochie time with bonus basking.

When Spike comes back, after the initial few months of flinching, ignoring, head kicking, and put downs, Buffy shows him extraordinary (non-sexual, non-romantic) caring behavior. But we (and Spike) don't see her dressing up to go patrolling with him, or big smiles just for showing up, or anything in that obvious romantic signals realm.

Every time Spike asks for clarification about their relationship, she hedges, and she doesn't exhibit the usual cues of affectionate words and touches. (You've already posted eloquently on how she expresses herself through actions.) It's just that she doesn't seem to have a problem being openly affectionate with any of her ex- and potential romantic partners except Spike. It's possible that he means more to her, which makes it harder for her(?) but I'm pretty sure that lots of the audience — and definitely Spike — did not see it that way.

[gabrielleabelle.livejournal.com]

I don't think Spike's return in S7 can be thought of along the same lines as Riley's return in AYW (that is, that of an "old flame" returning). Her relationship in S6 with Spike was fraught with angst and largely traumatic. It didn't mirror a romantic relationship even at the best of times. I don't think it's relevant to compare it to her reaction to Riley's return or Angel's return. The surrounding context makes any attempt at drawing parallels largely a futile affair.

You have clarified her argument for me, though. However, I still take issue with it.

[rebcake.livejournal.com]

I think I see the divergence. I absolutely, whole-heartedly consider their relationship in S6 to be a relationship. A romantic relationship with fucked-up romance. She didn't want it to be that, but wishes aren't horses, baby. She breaks up with him, ergo he is an ex-romantic partner, IMO. (Why does everybody think I'm still in love with Spike?) I'm not really movable on that point. I suspect shipperx feels the same way.

any attempt at drawing parallels largely a futile affair.

I disagree. The breakup with Riley was also messy and ugly. Still, when he shows up, he doesn't have to do anything to prove his worth to her, even though he severely broke her trust. So it's only a matter of scale that is the difference. That and the people involved.

Do I think Buffy loved Riley "more" than Spike? I do not. I do think she was more willing to love Riley than Spike, but her heart overruled her head. Eventually.

[gabrielleabelle.livejournal.com]

The breakup with Riley was also messy and ugly. Still, when he shows up, he doesn't have to do anything to prove his worth to her, even though he severely broke her trust.

But the relationship prior to the break-up had been overwhelmingly positive for Buffy, unlike her relationship with Spike in S6. That does affect how she greets them upon their return. In fact, it changes the entire tone of their continuing interactions as it cements the foundation upon which they're building.

However, given that we disagree on the apparently crucial factor of our respective assessments of the S6 affair, I don't think we'll reach any overall agreement.

[shipperx.livejournal.com]

Except it really isn't based in meeting up with ex's. It's in how she views the different men, whether or not she thinks they are "acceptable" or "aspirational" or whether she thinks that no matter what she may feel he is in some way "beneath her."

That's not "Yay! My ex has come back!" It's once you strip things down to what you think, whether you think he's actually good enough for you. Buffy may love Spike... but deep down I tend to think she may not think that she should. That he's beneath her and it embarrasses her a little.

[gabrielleabelle.livejournal.com]

I understand the argument you were making better now. I still disagree, obviously. And I think the canon evidence you use with which you back your claim is tenuous at best, but we're coming from such very different viewpoints that I don't know that any sort of middle ground can be reached. Also, I really should be studying for finals.

If my responses have seemed short, it's because I'm kinda shooting off replies whilst cramming. I think I've come across as brusque. This displeases me. I would offer a kitty icon, but I'm replying from email and so have to use my default. Pretend I'm using a kitty icon.

[shipperx.livejournal.com]

I think the canon evidence you use with which you back your claim is tenuous at best,

Clearly, however, I don't find it so. And I feel that I could come up with many incidents and lines to support why I came to view things this way. But I don't really see the purpose in making such an argument. I'm not particularly motivating to convince someone into doubting Spuffy more than they do (whatever level of doubt they may or may not have). I am a Spuffy. If I didn't think there was potential there for something good, I wouldn't be one. I want there to be Spuffies, Spuffy fic. I want to believe. Unfortunately, I'm less convinced of its execution than its potential.

[penny-lane-42.livejournal.com]

When Spike comes back, after the initial few months of flinching, ignoring, head kicking, and put downs, Buffy shows him extraordinary (non-sexual, non-romantic) caring behavior. But we (and Spike) don't see her dressing up to go patrolling with him, or big smiles just for showing up, or anything in that obvious romantic signals realm.

Well, I don't think you can expect her to be warm to him initially because the last time she saw him, he tried to rape her. She's extremely, extremely tentative with him at first, and understandably so. And then from "Never Leave Me" on, when she decides he's worth it, she does show that extraordinary caring that you mention.

I can understand why Spike (and some viewers) miss the dressing up and the big smiles, etc., but I honestly think the extreme honesty and vulnerability she shows with him (honestly, he's the only one she allows to see her be weak) are far more intimate than any of those things would be. I also think it would be...backtracking? for them to date and hold hands and give each other teddy bears that say "I wuv you berry much" (Logan Echolls is a genius, you know). Because they're so much more than that. They've gone so much further than that with emotions and with honesty and with understanding each other, that they aren't going to go to that place, and I wouldn't necessarily want them to. Not to say they can't be lighthearted and flirt (because that is adorable, though we see some of that in "Potential," for instance), but just that their relationship isn't going to look like a courtship because they're beyond that phase.

It's like how Buffy rejects calling Spike her boyfriend. I wouldn't describe him that way, either. He's more and other than that. He's her partner. But a label as common as "boyfriend" could never convey all they are to each other.

At least, that's how I see it.

[rebcake.livejournal.com]

100% agreed. We have an accord! (Except I think Spike would have been over the moon about the teddy, if Buffy gave him one.)

[penny-lane-42.livejournal.com]

Yay!

(Oh, he certainly would. He's a sap, is our boy.)

I just don't like comparing Buffy's relationships, though it makes sense that Spike would. It doesn't work for me, though. :D

[shipperx.livejournal.com]

Well, I don't think you can expect her to be warm to him initially

But that's really not what I'm saying. What I'm saying is that it's in how she views them as men, whether she considers them to be 'respectable partners' or whether she struggles with the idea that he's actually beneath her.

And, for me, yes, it takes words because so many terrible things had been said between them. And there had been such profound miscommunication. The air needed to be cleared with honest words and one's deathbed isn't always the most appropriate place for that...because in that instance there are other factors in play.

[frelling-tralk.livejournal.com]

I think there is a huge difference between the shame and "he's beneath me" feelings of season 6, and season 7 though. You seem to be judging it on Buffy didn't have big smiles and jumping into Spike's arms, ergo she viewed him is not quite acceptable. But that generally wasn't Buffy in seasons 5-7, she wasn't beaming around her friends most of the time either. She had an OT response to Riley's return in season 6 when she was in the midst of depression and saw him as someone there to rescue her. Would that initial glow have continued if he had stuck around as a part of her life? (And this is the guy who left partly because Buffy was unable to cry and share things with him). Ditto with Angel when she gets carried away with nostalgia when she sees him again in End Of Days, but even after that she's sending him away and not prepared to open her life to him again. How can those brief reactions count as more meaningful more than her sharing her life from day to day with Spike, and opening up to him at her lowest points?

She never had that excited reaction to Spike carrying her away from her everyday life precisely because he was always there in her life. (And her response to his return in season 7 has to be judged in terms of the bathroom incident, but even then she does look notably sad in Villains and asks Clem when he will be back, in Lessons she is somewhat gentle with him and overwhelmed at seeing him again, seeks him out in Beneath You when she gets the job at the school.) Even her reaction to seeing Spike in her living room in BY is kind of big eyes/catch my breath, and well I don't know exactly how to put it :P But there's certainly no eyeroll or annoyance that he's back, it's just all very tanged up with their last encounter, not to mention her friends and sister all now knowing about the AR which makes things extra awkward. Considering that this is supposedly the man she was using for convienience only in season 6 though, her reaction in early season 7 does say a lot to me about feelings still being there, and having been there all along. Even after everything she is still almost prepared to accept that he has changed in BY without knowing about the soul, and looks disappointed when Spike snaps back in the bronze and claims that he was just playing her


If anything her reactions to Spike in season 7 became the opposite of shame with her prioritizing Spike above her friends much of the time, look at how she didn't hesitate to rush to Spike's side when Xander had been stabbed through with a sword, or how she unashamedly argued with Giles about giving Spike a chance with the chip. So much so that in LMPTM she's openly defying Giles in refusing to keep Spike chained up for safety.

I viewed Buffy's hesitation in season 7 as being about her romantic baggage for all men and, as gabrielleabelle says, she was exactly the same in season 4 with Riley. Her cookie dough speech to Angel, and her confused speech to Spike in First Date and in End Of Days are in line with that. And Spike was the only one of three who wasn't prepared to push for more at that stage and immediately backed away from their talk in EOD as opposed to Riley venting his frustration in Doomed when Buffy wasn't prepared to give it a chance (talking her into dating him) or Angel demanding to know if Spike is her boyfriend and if she ever still thinks of a future with him (getting his sometimes I still think of a future with you). Spike didn't get a speech like that with Buffy being able to express her feelings for him exactly because he was immediately (and understandably) backing away from it with a let's just forget it. I can understand thinking that Buffy should have given him more after everything, but that just wasn't Buffy. Her response to Angel in Chosen even is a huge contrast to all the teary forever's from earlier seasons. And yet it's generally only Spuffy that's compared to that early B/A romance, and the fact that Buffy wasn't even that sure of a future with Angel any more (HUGE contrast to her tears in The Prom) is brushed over

[shipperx.livejournal.com]

I also think that considering the number of people who don't see her actions in that light (including a number of people who were eager to see her actions in the most Spuffy-positive light) means that aren't as lacking in ambiguity as a lot of people insist. Yes, the most positive Spuffy interpretation may exist, but it's ambiguous enough that it's really not the only option.

Yes, it's possible that she has so much trouble because it means so much more. Or it's possible that she has so much trouble for some other reason. But, that's really up for interpretation... and that's why it's ambiguous.

[rebcake.livejournal.com]

Yes, it's possible that she has so much trouble because it means so much more...

You know I'm in the Buffy loved Spike camp, but this behavior is...confusing. I mean, I get your interpretation that she just doesn't think she should, but after a certain point it's got to take a ridiculous amount of effort to maintain that she doesn't if she does. IDEK. Stoopid ambiguity.

[shipperx.livejournal.com]

Actually, though, it doesn't. With the shoe on the other foot, I wonder how others are so gosh darn sure. I don't see her actions as being nearly as definitive. I just really, truly, honestly... don't.

And I don't think it's unreasonable to expect actual words. Goodness knows we were 'treated' to enough instances where she made quite clear that she thought he was beneath her. And her later saying that she believed he was a better person, doesn't say that she still doesn't think that he's beneath her no matter what strides she honestly believes that he's made.

And I know she said she loved him. And I was more than willing to entertain that declaration to be true... but I cannot be certain in what way. And given that it was a deathbed confession, I cannot say that I'm certain that the words weren't laced with pity for a dying man. Giving him love, but not necessarily romantic. I cannot know (and the comics undermine what little I thought I knew). And no amount of being told that I should be certain by others is going to make me certain. Because I can only know what I felt because of what I saw. That's all any of us can do really.