Annoyance of the day:

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Annoyance of the day:

People who flat-out say that Buffy didn't love Spike despite the fact that she said she did.

She said she did. The only reason we have to believe that she didn't is one thing Spike said, and since when do people believe anything that comes out of Spike's mouth? Boy can speak the truth that no one else will, but he also says a ton of b.s., and everyone knows it.

I just hatehatehatehatehatehate all of these people sitting around telling a woman (and it would be a woman--if a man said, it I think a lot less people would disagree with her) who finds it nearly impossible to say the words "I love you" even to people she regards as family (remember "Intervention"? That's canon) that she doesn't love someone when she said she did.

I don't have a problem with people quibbling over the nature of her love. You can argue that she didn't love him romantically or as much as she did Angel or whatever (I would disagree with the first one and re: the second, I would remind you that, as

the_royal_anna says, we don't love in amounts. We love in ways). That's legit. But to say, flat-out, that she didn't love him even though she says she did takes agency away from Buffy in a way that I am entirely uncomfortable with and that DRIVES ME CRAZY, OKAY. If she had said she loved Riley (she didn't, did she?), I would be pissed at people saying she didn't love him, either. Uuuugh why does this annoy me so much?

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But

shipperx is almost always talking about Spike's perspective! That's her thing! And a lovely thing it is, too! ♥

I do think you misunderstood (though not grossly) her argument. This is the way that I interpreted what she said about Spike vs. those other guys:

When comparing Buffy's reaction to Spike and her various other beaus in the later seasons (Riley, Wood, and Angel, in order of appearance), Buffy generally is much warmer in her dealings with them than him. When Riley comes back, she walks out on her job to do whatever he asks, no questions. When Wood asks her to dinner, she accepts, wonders for a few hours if it's a trap, then goes on to moan voluptuously about the pears. When Angel shows up, it's smoochie time with bonus basking.

When Spike comes back, after the initial few months of flinching, ignoring, head kicking, and put downs, Buffy shows him extraordinary (non-sexual, non-romantic) caring behavior. But we (and Spike) don't see her dressing up to go patrolling with him, or big smiles just for showing up, or anything in that obvious romantic signals realm.

Every time Spike asks for clarification about their relationship, she hedges, and she doesn't exhibit the usual cues of affectionate words and touches. (You've already posted eloquently on how she expresses herself through actions.) It's just that she doesn't seem to have a problem being openly affectionate with any of her ex- and potential romantic partners except Spike. It's possible that he means more to her, which makes it harder for her(?) but I'm pretty sure that lots of the audience — and definitely Spike — did not see it that way.

I don't think Spike's return in S7 can be thought of along the same lines as Riley's return in AYW (that is, that of an "old flame" returning). Her relationship in S6 with Spike was fraught with angst and largely traumatic. It didn't mirror a romantic relationship even at the best of times. I don't think it's relevant to compare it to her reaction to Riley's return or Angel's return. The surrounding context makes any attempt at drawing parallels largely a futile affair.

You have clarified her argument for me, though. However, I still take issue with it.

I think I see the divergence. I absolutely, whole-heartedly consider their relationship in S6 to be a relationship. A romantic relationship with fucked-up romance. She didn't want it to be that, but wishes aren't horses, baby. She breaks up with him, ergo he is an ex-romantic partner, IMO. (Why does everybody think I'm still in love with Spike?) I'm not really movable on that point. I suspect

shipperx feels the same way.

any attempt at drawing parallels largely a futile affair.

I disagree. The breakup with Riley was also messy and ugly. Still, when he shows up, he doesn't have to do anything to prove his worth to her, even though he severely broke her trust. So it's only a matter of scale that is the difference. That and the people involved.

Do I think Buffy loved Riley "more" than Spike? I do not. I do think she was more willing to love Riley than Spike, but her heart overruled her head. Eventually.

The breakup with Riley was also messy and ugly. Still, when he shows up, he doesn't have to do anything to prove his worth to her, even though he severely broke her trust.

But the relationship prior to the break-up had been overwhelmingly positive for Buffy, unlike her relationship with Spike in S6. That does affect how she greets them upon their return. In fact, it changes the entire tone of their continuing interactions as it cements the foundation upon which they're building.

However, given that we disagree on the apparently crucial factor of our respective assessments of the S6 affair, I don't think we'll reach any overall agreement.

Except it really isn't based in meeting up with ex's. It's in how she views the different men, whether or not she thinks they are "acceptable" or "aspirational" or whether she thinks that no matter what she may feel he is in some way "beneath her."

That's not "Yay! My ex has come back!" It's once you strip things down to what you think, whether you think he's actually good enough for you. Buffy may love Spike... but deep down I tend to think she may not think that she should. That he's beneath her and it embarrasses her a little.

Edited 2010-12-15 03:44 (UTC)

I understand the argument you were making better now. I still disagree, obviously. And I think the canon evidence you use with which you back your claim is tenuous at best, but we're coming from such very different viewpoints that I don't know that any sort of middle ground can be reached. Also, I really should be studying for finals.

If my responses have seemed short, it's because I'm kinda shooting off replies whilst cramming. I think I've come across as brusque. This displeases me. I would offer a kitty icon, but I'm replying from email and so have to use my default. Pretend I'm using a kitty icon.

I think the canon evidence you use with which you back your claim is tenuous at best,

Clearly, however, I don't find it so. And I feel that I could come up with many incidents and lines to support why I came to view things this way. But I don't really see the purpose in making such an argument. I'm not particularly motivating to convince someone into doubting Spuffy more than they do (whatever level of doubt they may or may not have). I am a Spuffy. If I didn't think there was potential there for something good, I wouldn't be one. I want there to be Spuffies, Spuffy fic. I want to believe. Unfortunately, I'm less convinced of its execution than its potential.

When Spike comes back, after the initial few months of flinching, ignoring, head kicking, and put downs, Buffy shows him extraordinary (non-sexual, non-romantic) caring behavior. But we (and Spike) don't see her dressing up to go patrolling with him, or big smiles just for showing up, or anything in that obvious romantic signals realm.

Well, I don't think you can expect her to be warm to him initially because the last time she saw him, he tried to rape her. She's extremely, extremely tentative with him at first, and understandably so. And then from "Never Leave Me" on, when she decides he's worth it, she does show that extraordinary caring that you mention.

I can understand why Spike (and some viewers) miss the dressing up and the big smiles, etc., but I honestly think the extreme honesty and vulnerability she shows with him (honestly, he's the only one she allows to see her be weak) are far more intimate than any of those things would be. I also think it would be...backtracking? for them to date and hold hands and give each other teddy bears that say "I wuv you berry much" (Logan Echolls is a genius, you know). Because they're so much more than that. They've gone so much further than that with emotions and with honesty and with understanding each other, that they aren't going to go to that place, and I wouldn't necessarily want them to. Not to say they can't be lighthearted and flirt (because that is adorable, though we see some of that in "Potential," for instance), but just that their relationship isn't going to look like a courtship because they're beyond that phase.

It's like how Buffy rejects calling Spike her boyfriend. I wouldn't describe him that way, either. He's more and other than that. He's her partner. But a label as common as "boyfriend" could never convey all they are to each other.

At least, that's how I see it.

100% agreed. We have an accord! (Except I think Spike would have been over the moon about the teddy, if Buffy gave him one.)

Yay!

(Oh, he certainly would. He's a sap, is our boy.)

I just don't like comparing Buffy's relationships, though it makes sense that Spike would. It doesn't work for me, though. :D

I don't mind comparing 'em, because Spike is the best boyfriend she ever had! Even if we're not calling him that.

Hahaha! Well, when you put it that way...

Well, I don't think you can expect her to be warm to him initially

But that's really not what I'm saying. What I'm saying is that it's in how she views them as men, whether she considers them to be 'respectable partners' or whether she struggles with the idea that he's actually beneath her.

And, for me, yes, it takes words because so many terrible things had been said between them. And there had been such profound miscommunication. The air needed to be cleared with honest words and one's deathbed isn't always the most appropriate place for that...because in that instance there are other factors in play.

I think there is a huge difference between the shame and "he's beneath me" feelings of season 6, and season 7 though. You seem to be judging it on Buffy didn't have big smiles and jumping into Spike's arms, ergo she viewed him is not quite acceptable. But that generally wasn't Buffy in seasons 5-7, she wasn't beaming around her friends most of the time either. She had an OT response to Riley's return in season 6 when she was in the midst of depression and saw him as someone there to rescue her. Would that initial glow have continued if he had stuck around as a part of her life? (And this is the guy who left partly because Buffy was unable to cry and share things with him). Ditto with Angel when she gets carried away with nostalgia when she sees him again in End Of Days, but even after that she's sending him away and not prepared to open her life to him again. How can those brief reactions count as more meaningful more than her sharing her life from day to day with Spike, and opening up to him at her lowest points?

She never had that excited reaction to Spike carrying her away from her everyday life precisely because he was always there in her life. (And her response to his return in season 7 has to be judged in terms of the bathroom incident, but even then she does look notably sad in Villains and asks Clem when he will be back, in Lessons she is somewhat gentle with him and overwhelmed at seeing him again, seeks him out in Beneath You when she gets the job at the school.) Even her reaction to seeing Spike in her living room in BY is kind of big eyes/catch my breath, and well I don't know exactly how to put it :P But there's certainly no eyeroll or annoyance that he's back, it's just all very tanged up with their last encounter, not to mention her friends and sister all now knowing about the AR which makes things extra awkward. Considering that this is supposedly the man she was using for convienience only in season 6 though, her reaction in early season 7 does say a lot to me about feelings still being there, and having been there all along. Even after everything she is still almost prepared to accept that he has changed in BY without knowing about the soul, and looks disappointed when Spike snaps back in the bronze and claims that he was just playing her

If anything her reactions to Spike in season 7 became the opposite of shame with her prioritizing Spike above her friends much of the time, look at how she didn't hesitate to rush to Spike's side when Xander had been stabbed through with a sword, or how she unashamedly argued with Giles about giving Spike a chance with the chip. So much so that in LMPTM she's openly defying Giles in refusing to keep Spike chained up for safety.

I viewed Buffy's hesitation in season 7 as being about her romantic baggage for all men and, as gabrielleabelle says, she was exactly the same in season 4 with Riley. Her cookie dough speech to Angel, and her confused speech to Spike in First Date and in End Of Days are in line with that. And Spike was the only one of three who wasn't prepared to push for more at that stage and immediately backed away from their talk in EOD as opposed to Riley venting his frustration in Doomed when Buffy wasn't prepared to give it a chance (talking her into dating him) or Angel demanding to know if Spike is her boyfriend and if she ever still thinks of a future with him (getting his sometimes I still think of a future with you). Spike didn't get a speech like that with Buffy being able to express her feelings for him exactly because he was immediately (and understandably) backing away from it with a let's just forget it. I can understand thinking that Buffy should have given him more after everything, but that just wasn't Buffy. Her response to Angel in Chosen even is a huge contrast to all the teary forever's from earlier seasons. And yet it's generally only Spuffy that's compared to that early B/A romance, and the fact that Buffy wasn't even that sure of a future with Angel any more (HUGE contrast to her tears in The Prom) is brushed over

I think there is a huge difference between the shame and "he's beneath me" feelings of season 6, and season 7 though

And I'm not sure how we're supposed to know that. Where's this moment of demarkation being displayed in Buffy's reaction? It's not in "Beneath You." That's for sure.

There's no threshold visibly crossed anywhere. No place where we can actually point to and say the change happened here. It's all one timeline. One universe. One continuous sequence of events. So, I honestly do not know where that particular line was drawn or crossed in her eyes. And more often than not...Buffy wasn't saying.

Everyone says there aren't words and there don't need to be. Well, if I'm supposed to simply look at her and know... I don't. I just don't. Her nonverbal cues are so restrained that I simply do not know. I do know she's capable of giving words and gestures to others, so she isn't actually physically incapable. What that means, however, is up for interpretation. And interpretations abound. There are all sorts of implications being drawn by that fact, and they vary substantially depending who and which fan faction is drawing them. There are a plethora of interpreations of what Buffy may or may not have felt and why. And how it was expressed and why it wasn't. What that feeling was, and what file heading that feeling should be filed under. So, yeah, a little more verbal communication would have been helpful. Maybe then it wouldn't be a subject for incessant debate all these years later. But Joss wasn't going to be handing out that sort of clarification. He actually wasn't even interested in it.

And I'm not sure how we're supposed to know that. Where's this moment of demarkation being displayed in Buffy's reaction? It's not in "Beneath You." That's for sure.

Never Leave Me? That's the episode when she starts feeding Spike his blood bags by hand, and giving him speeches about believing that he has it in him to be a good man. Or even in Sleeper. She does have an unsure reaction towards souled Spike between BY-Sleeper granted, and doesn't quite know how to react around him. Once she saw how remorseful and suicidal he was in Sleeper, I think that marked her turning point from the rather brusque "you have to get out of this basement" running away Buffy from earlier in season 7. Buffy became so unashamedly wrapped up in Spike as the season went on that I never got any indication that she still viewed Spike as beneath her or Other. Once she'd had time to adjust, the soul really did make all the difference to her, hence the frequent mocking in fandom of "he has a soul now". If we're at a stage when other characters in the show are complaining about how openly wrapped up Buffy is in Spike, I find it hard to see how Buffy can be ashamed of that connction with him.

It was more the case of being stunted emotionally when it came to sorting out her romantic feelings and still feeling like cookie dough, not Spike being the one exception of the man that she couldn't bring herself to love and see as being on her level. This is the man that she spend her possible last night on earth with in Chosen. After sending a pouting Angel away no less. That's just not how you treat your back-up or your source of secret shame. That's how you treat the man in your life, and Buffy openly tells Angel (who is being dismissive of Spike in a way that doesn't embarass Buffy one bit) that that's what Spike is to her

On the other hand, she also cries out in "Selfless" that she loved Angel more than she would ever love anything else in this life. And she won't give her relationship with Spike a name nor anything really beyond the present. Meanwhile she does call back Angel with "Maybe... someday." And those were also set into place by the writers to keep that ship hanging on.

And there was a time when I was far more willing to concede that Chosen maked a change. That maybe she really, really meant it. And it resonated.

And now I have to reconcile that with the blatant slap in the face of Joss writing their reunion with her -- in the Joss-written-issue -- telling Angel point-blank that Spike was 'convenient' and with the Joss-dig of having Buffy assuring Angel that Spike was beneath him. Whatever Joss's motivations for writing that scene that way (honestly, the deliberate way the knife was twisted... I'm not sure that I don't consider it to be pure meaness), it left its mark. Heck, even people who hated Spuffy took a step back with "Whoa! That was harsh!" So what do I make of it all now? I honestly do not know.

On the other hand, she also cries out in "Selfless" that she loved Angel more than she would ever love anything else in this life.

In the context of a discussion about Buffy making the decision to kill Anya. I never understood why that moment was recalled as something swoonworthy and shippy, it was actually a very sad moment of how much the relationship with Angel had shaped Buffy into the person she is today. She's not remembering Angel in the context of a discussion with her friends about who was your great love, it's about remembering how much pain that love caused her. Her having an intense reaction to remembering killing Angel at the end of season 2 is understandable, and I don't think she ever will love again in the way that she did when she was 16/17 with her first love

But then even her feelings from Angel switch from the teary-eyed "I want my life to be with you" love. Most B/A shippers loved Chosen, but in their position man I would have been pissed that they didn't leave B/A as they were in IWRY. Because that Chosen encounter was so far removed from how a schoolgirl Buffy had once loved Angel, and couldn't imagine her life without him in it. Chosen pretty much destroyed the whole star-crossed lovers theme by having Angel wanting to believe that he could get back together with Buffy, and Buffy saying "maybe someday". I thought their tragedy was supposed to be that they would be together if they could, but fate or whatever wasn't making it possible...

I'm not familiar with the comics and view them as separate from the tv canon, but yeah that does sound odd if it was Joss writing that. It's a pretty far cry from "Love him when you say you love him, love her when you say you don't" and "I left B/A in the graveyard" (rough remembrance of those quotes). Has Joss ever been asked what he meant with his writing of Angel and Spike in the comics? Judging by Joss's episodes on the series itself (Who Are You sexy encounter even, Family with Spike coming to the rescue, The Gift "you treat me like a man", OMWF love song and first kiss, even Lesson's encounter, Chosen) I don't believe he would ever have written Spuffy like that for the actual tv series. It's funny because Marti and Jane often got "blamed" for the writing of romantic Spuffy, but I always thought that Joss's episodes made him come across as the biggest shipper of all. Practically all of his later season episodes featured some significant encounter for them, and there's been no Joss written Spuffy series from the tv series that I can recall really disliking. He was even the one that gave them their first somewhat cute interacton in Becoming "We're in a band"

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shipperx.livejournal.com - 2010-12-15 18:05 (UTC) - Expand

I'm sorry. I know we're bound to disagree on this, but some of your arguments confuse me.

There's no threshold visibly crossed anywhere. No place where we can actually point to and say the change happened here. It's all one timeline. One universe. One continuous sequence of events. So, I honestly do not know where that particular line was drawn or crossed in her eyes. And more often than not...Buffy wasn't saying.

Characters' relationships often develop and change without explicit verbiage stating as such. We didn't have a moment in S6 where Buffy says, "I'm so angry at Willow for bringing me back," but she demonstratively is. Willow spends a large part of the later seasons (excluding S7) feeling bitter towards Buffy, but that's not really explicitly stated until the Dark Willow arc. Much like Buffy's developed feelings for Spike aren't explicitly stated until, you know, Chosen.

Character changes rarely come with a line of demarcation. That's not how people work.

But people are saying "That was season 6 and this is season 7 and things are different now" and I'm asking how exactly are they different... because I do think that it's one sequence of events. It's all in one continuum.

So, exactly, there is no line of demarcation.

That's the point I'm trying to make.

People keep insisting "but that was season 6 and this is season 7." I'm asking that if it really matters what season it's in, point to me where--on screen within the 'verse-- the seasonal difference is matters. What distinguishes it? What marks some upending of Buffy's estimation of Spike's status relative to herself? We can't assume a radically different mindset in 7 than 6 based on "well it's a different season now." [I'm not, BTW, arguing that she doesn't say that he's better than he was. She does in fact state that quite clearly. But that statement doesn't necessarily mean that she thinks he's on the same playing field as herself. It's possible to think he's changed and grown... and to still think "beneath me") But people say "but that was Season 6 and this was Season 7" and I want to understand what makes that demarcation important within the 'verse to the characters as opposed to the DVD packagers? I'd argue... it doesn't.

And I'm unsure how that sequence of the debate gets lost in translation. It's liking telling someone playing tennis and saying "You take the north court. I'll take the south" then asking them "why are you on the north side of the court?" If the argument is that a character's views have changed because of which season they're in, I'm wondering what makes that distinction. What makes them separate? If Buffy's estimation of Spike's status relative to herself (as opposed to himself) is radically different based on "that was Season 6 and this is Season 7" where was that tipping point? What distinguishes this transition and when did it change to the opposite of what it previously was. If it's the seasonal distinction, how do we know that? If not, then there is no distinction based on season. And if we're saying "Well she changed this view and does see him on the same social/moral level of herself," what tipped her into the view quite opposite of the one she'd had only months (I'm not arguing that she doesn't recognize a change relative to himself. I'd say that "Never Leave Me" supports that quite well." it's relative to herself that I wonder about. If she really changed her view that much when was the tipping point and how could we tell?)

Crap. That was me. Why does my home computer insist on doing that? (Posting me as anonymous when I've been signed on) Grr!

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gabrielleabelle.livejournal.com - 2010-12-16 01:55 (UTC) - Expand

How can those brief reactions count as more meaningful more than her sharing her life from day to day with Spike, and opening up to him at her lowest points?

She never had that excited reaction to Spike carrying her away from her everyday life precisely because he was always there in her life.

THANK YOU. This is truth.

I also think that considering the number of people who don't see her actions in that light (including a number of people who were eager to see her actions in the most Spuffy-positive light) means that aren't as lacking in ambiguity as a lot of people insist. Yes, the most positive Spuffy interpretation may exist, but it's ambiguous enough that it's really not the only option.

Yes, it's possible that she has so much trouble because it means so much more. Or it's possible that she has so much trouble for some other reason. But, that's really up for interpretation... and that's why it's ambiguous.

Yes, it's possible that she has so much trouble because it means so much more...

You know I'm in the Buffy loved Spike camp, but this behavior is...confusing. I mean, I get your interpretation that she just doesn't think she should, but after a certain point it's got to take a ridiculous amount of effort to maintain that she doesn't if she does. IDEK. Stoopid ambiguity.

Actually, though, it doesn't. With the shoe on the other foot, I wonder how others are so gosh darn sure. I don't see her actions as being nearly as definitive. I just really, truly, honestly... don't.

And I don't think it's unreasonable to expect actual words. Goodness knows we were 'treated' to enough instances where she made quite clear that she thought he was beneath her. And her later saying that she believed he was a better person, doesn't say that she still doesn't think that he's beneath her no matter what strides she honestly believes that he's made.

And I know she said she loved him. And I was more than willing to entertain that declaration to be true... but I cannot be certain in what way. And given that it was a deathbed confession, I cannot say that I'm certain that the words weren't laced with pity for a dying man. Giving him love, but not necessarily romantic. I cannot know (and the comics undermine what little I thought I knew). And no amount of being told that I should be certain by others is going to make me certain. Because I can only know what I felt because of what I saw. That's all any of us can do really.

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