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Annoyance of the day:
People who flat-out say that Buffy didn't love Spike despite the fact that she said she did.
She said she did. The only reason we have to believe that she didn't is one thing Spike said, and since when do people believe anything that comes out of Spike's mouth? Boy can speak the truth that no one else will, but he also says a ton of b.s., and everyone knows it.
I just hatehatehatehatehatehate all of these people sitting around telling a woman (and it would be a woman--if a man said, it I think a lot less people would disagree with her) who finds it nearly impossible to say the words "I love you" even to people she regards as family (remember "Intervention"? That's canon) that she doesn't love someone when she said she did.
I don't have a problem with people quibbling over the nature of her love. You can argue that she didn't love him romantically or as much as she did Angel or whatever (I would disagree with the first one and re: the second, I would remind you that, as![[livejournal.com profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/external/lj-userinfo.gif)
the_royal_anna says, we don't love in amounts. We love in ways). That's legit. But to say, flat-out, that she didn't love him even though she says she did takes agency away from Buffy in a way that I am entirely uncomfortable with and that DRIVES ME CRAZY, OKAY. If she had said she loved Riley (she didn't, did she?), I would be pissed at people saying she didn't love him, either. Uuuugh why does this annoy me so much?
She said she did. The only reason we have to believe that she didn't is one thing Spike said, and since when do people believe anything that comes out of Spike's mouth? Boy can speak the truth that no one else will, but he also says a ton of b.s., and everyone knows it.
I just hatehatehatehatehatehate all of these people sitting around telling a woman (and it would be a woman--if a man said, it I think a lot less people would disagree with her) who finds it nearly impossible to say the words "I love you" even to people she regards as family (remember "Intervention"? That's canon) that she doesn't love someone when she said she did.
I don't have a problem with people quibbling over the nature of her love. You can argue that she didn't love him romantically or as much as she did Angel or whatever (I would disagree with the first one and re: the second, I would remind you that, as
the_royal_anna says, we don't love in amounts. We love in ways). That's legit. But to say, flat-out, that she didn't love him even though she says she did takes agency away from Buffy in a way that I am entirely uncomfortable with and that DRIVES ME CRAZY, OKAY. If she had said she loved Riley (she didn't, did she?), I would be pissed at people saying she didn't love him, either. Uuuugh why does this annoy me so much?
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Because you care about the characters. It drives me nuts when people say Sawyer and Kate didn't love each other and were just "fun make-out buddies." Honestly - I could write pages that nobody would ever read because 'they didn't love each other' is not canonically true and it's just...nasty, really, to try and devalue their choices like that. They said it! I'm not going after Kate's love for Jack even though she didn't ever say she loved him out. Actions speak louder than words sometimes. Even if the characters are fictional, they represent more than that to us. They represent us and our choices and the challenges we face in our real lives. A woman at the Browncoat Ball and I were talking about ships - she ships Kaylee/Jayne and I was curious why (since I 'ship' barely anything in Firefly in the classic sense) and she was talking about how Kaylee and Jayne speak to her and she sees parts of herself in the characters.
I know that's true for me, and your connection with both Buffy and Spike is pretty strong. It's only natural for you to want their emotional development acknowledged and respected.
we don't love in amounts. We love in ways
this is so true <3
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Did you ever start watching LOST by the way? It's an effort but I know you were considering it after it finished. I was too wrapped up in the finale and all the emotions it opened up to properly respond to your inquiry post back then :)
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And just for the record: back when I watched it, I definitely shipped Sawyer and Kate.
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I don't think I can coherently rec it right now - I think I need to go through a rewatch, perhaps this summer, which means I'll finally bite the bullet and get the DVDs. But they easily compete for my OOTP spot (it rotates on the mood I'm in).
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People say that? Wow. Way for people to miss the point. Kate and Sawyer mattered to each other a great deal. Given their interaction in Limbo and the way they kept crossing paths, they obviously cared. That isn't to say that they felt that they were their best selves with each other. I guess they felt they needed the validation of others and that's why they longed for Juliet and for Jack. But Sawyer/Kate were deeply entwined with one another and absolutely pivotal in each others lives and journeys. I always imagined that once off the island they were very much each other's primary support system. I figured they were always in close contact with one another the rest of their lives and, heck, may have even gotten together post-Island. I never doubted their ties (even if I was thrilled Sawyer found Juliet in heaven).
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"If Kate chose between Sawyer and Jack 100 times, she would probably choose Jack 49 and Sawyer 51."
And another great point was that it's very easy to love Jack (except when it's not in S4 and you see he and Kate parting ways). It's very difficult to love Sawyer (understatement) and yet she loves him anyway. So I don't know that it's about validation from another partner but there are definite ties between the four of them.
ETA: edited for math error :)
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But, honestly, I never saw anything that precluded Sawyer and Kate getting together post-Island (after a certain amount of time. They both needed to mourn.) I never thought that either spent their lives celibate and, who other than each other could ever really understand? I figure Kate/Sawyer had a life. The ending allowed them to also have the life that they didn't have.
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They both definitely needed to mourn though but... my ship. I don't want to bore you with all the reasons why that's exactly why I think they had a life together off the island, but I've read some absolutely lovely fics that respect the church scene/context but talk about life off the island as being more than waiting to die.
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http://valhalla37.livejournal.com/41509.html#cutid1
But totally agree on Aaron being Kate's as much as Claire's :) The finale solidified that.
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ETA: Would you like to be friends? We already share some interests but there's also Being Human and Mad Men and FNL :)
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Absolutely, positively had to! The two conmen who imagine themselves as cops was awesome. And there simply had to be a real friendship there because otherwise why was the connection so important? Sawyer actually confessed his vendetta to Miles. That's pretty freakin' huge.
Would you like to be friends? We already share some interests but there's also Being Human and Mad Men and FNL :)
I thought we already were. Friend me! :)
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But I only shipped Kate/Sawyer mildly anyway and stopped halfway through season 3 - because I never liked Kate, and she just got too wishy washy. And after a while I just didn't care about the whole love triangle. I did like that Juliet and Sawyer got together since I liked each of them better than Kate and Jack, but their relationship wasn't developed over too many episodes (even though in series time, they spent years together) for me to be as invested in it as in Sun/Jin, for instance.
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This is me. I was vaguely team Skate until Juliet showed up, then it was all about stanning her.
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It was terrible timing. Juliet had died, what? Hours? Days before? He had loved Juliet for six years (mostly off screen). Her loss was huge. And i grant that Kate losing Jack was also huge. Clearly, Sawyer and Kate loved Juliet and Jack a great deal. They were incredibly important to them, enough that they longed for them in the afterlife. But, I guess I'm very much of the school that there isn't always only one. And I choose to believe that Sawyer and Kate lived long lives that weren't just 'waiting to die.' So I'm open enough to the thought that in the years after the island, Sawyer and Kate were close. I hate to think that either of them lived the rest of their lives miserable and alone (albeit not without wistfulness for what would have been had Juliet and Jack not died). I guess I like the foursome in that case. All in all, I'm perfectly happy with the way things worked out.
And Sun/Jin... *sob* Damn lost and it's many starcrossed lovers! :) They had great love for that trope (but that's okay, it's all love in heaven. I'm one of those rare people who loved the finale. I can be a sentimental sap that way. :)
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