lirazel | Annoyance of the day:

People who flat-out say that Buffy didn't love Spike despite the fact that she said she did.

She said she did. The only reason we have to believe that she didn't is one thing Spike said, and since when do people believe anything that comes out of Spike's mouth? Boy can speak the truth that no one else will, but he also says a ton of b.s., and everyone knows it.

I just hatehatehatehatehatehate all of these people sitting around telling a woman (and it would be a woman--if a man said, it I think a lot less people would disagree with her) who finds it nearly impossible to say the words "I love you" even to people she regards as family (remember "Intervention"? That's canon) that she doesn't love someone when she said she did.

I don't have a problem with people quibbling over the nature of her love. You can argue that she didn't love him romantically or as much as she did Angel or whatever (I would disagree with the first one and re: the second, I would remind you that, as

the_royal_anna says, we don't love in amounts. We love in ways). That's legit. But to say, flat-out, that she didn't love him even though she says she did takes agency away from Buffy in a way that I am entirely uncomfortable with and that DRIVES ME CRAZY, OKAY. If she had said she loved Riley (she didn't, did she?), I would be pissed at people saying she didn't love him, either. Uuuugh why does this annoy me so much?

Flat | Top-Level Comments Only

My thing about the idea that Buffy's incapable of giving that sort of love because she's the Slayer--it reads as antithetical to the very essence of the Slayer: "You are full of love. You love with all of your soul. It's brighter than the fire ... blinding. That's why you pull away from it."

And I really loved having this conversation with Christy about how Buffy being the Slayer--it becomes how she shows love. She shows love through actions. Her being the Slayer is how she expresses her love.

And I don't think Buffy's emotional issues are the result of the Slayer. Not when it comes to opening up romantically. Nope. That shit's on Angel's shoulders when he lost his soul and the following months of trauma. Because while I doubt that Buffy didn't really know Angel that well, she loved him. She loved him perhaps well, if not wisely since she didn't truly know him. She opened her heart completely and she gave her heart completely. I'm not sure what more is there she could have ever given him and it's because was so completely open, so completely in love, that she wasn't able to kill him, that her heart shut down after that.

The way Buffy expresses love in later seasons is formed by that trauma, by that fear of losing herself. But I think what she had with Angel was largely based on codependence and what she found with Riley and later with Spike (in Season 7 mostly)--that was real and healthier.

I guess I don't really see how there's a point where romantic love tips over into being "in love". I don't think being in love requires giving away everything and I think it works differently for different people.

O HAI, LOOK IT'S MY FEELINGS COMING AT ME OVER THE COMPUTER BOX.

And I don't think Buffy's emotional issues are the result of the Slayer. Not when it comes to opening up romantically. Nope. That shit's on Angel's shoulders when he lost his soul and the following months of trauma.

Yep. And I'll go even further and say it's also her father's fault. I've said it before, and I'll say it again: I think Buffy had a somewhat hard time opening up to Angel at the very beginning (he had to ask whether she loved him in order to pull the first "I love you" out of her), and that was probably a result of her fear of rejection by men (as we see in Nightmares, Hank rejecting her love is one of her greatest fears). That fear then becomes manifest because of Angel, making that mark completely indelible. She's not going to be able to just wipe away that kind of trauma--her greatest fear coming true.

But that doesn't mean she can't love romantically. For me, that argument doesn't quite make sense. Because where does it stop. If we don't believe that Buffy can't love, why do we believe that Dawn can or Willow can or Cordelia can? Or--hey! If it's because she's the slayer--why can vampires love? Why can Angel and Spike love without people questioning their sincerity? I find it troubling.

Being the slayer doesn't change Buffy's ability to feel love. It (maybe) alters the way she expresses love (and maybe not--some people just naturally express love through action, and I don't know that we have any real reason to suspect that Buffy isn't one of them before she gets called).

And in conclusion, Buffy = ♥

(I might write more later, but now I have to get out of this godforsaken office.)

WORD.

I always thought it had a lot to do with her father - that fear we see in "Nightmares" persists throughout her life, and she always feels that people end up leaving her and that it's all her fault because there is something wrong with her. And that nightmare seems to coming true all the time - with Angel, and Riley, and Giles, and finally even Spike.

I feel that it's so wrong to deny someone's ability to love, just because they have a different way of expressing love.

Maybe I feel so much for Buffy because, unlike most 'hero' characters, she is very misunderstood.

I feel that it's so wrong to deny someone's ability to love, just because they have a different way of expressing love.

Once again you are in my brain.

I really don't care to hold any one relationship/pairing up as the 'ideal way to love' or whatever. Everybody works differently. And there are some people who straight up have a harder time accepting and expressing love than others. That's really it.

♥ ♥ ♥

OUR GIRL.

I mean she outright says to Holden in Conversations with Dead People that she believes she's superior to everyone and not capable of loving them because she's different and she's better and she's the slayer. I think that's one of the only truly honest conversations Buffy has about love in the entire series. She's talking to someone she's going to kill, he won't tell anyone, and he psych tricked her into opening up. I just don't see that changing. Even after there are thousands of slayers (or hundred I don't remember), they will never know the pressure she knew when she was the only one.

That's not about being incapable of love, though, but more she's become so weary over the years. And her expression of love, which she attributes to the Slayer lifestyle, it's challenged by so much more trauma than slaying and her inferiority complex about her superiority complex.

Her sometimes feeling better than them means she doesn't always feel an affinity with her friends; that doesn't mean she loves them less, but that she herself feels unlovable for feeling that way.

I just went back and read the transcript, and she actually doesn't say that she's not capable of love at all. She says she has trouble connecting and that there's a distance between her and other people because they don't know what it's like to be the Slayer. But she doesn't say she can't love.

I mean, I understand how you get there. But it's easy to have a completely different interpretation, too.

I mean she outright says to Holden in Conversations with Dead People that she believes she's superior to everyone and not capable of loving them because she's different and she's better and she's the slayer.

Huh. That's not at all how I read that conversation. Here's what the transcript says:

BUFFY
I feel like I'm worse than anyone. Honestly, I'm beneath them. My friends, my boyfriends. I feel like I'm not worthy of their love. 'Cause even though they love me, it doesn't mean anything 'cause their opinions don't matter. They don't know. They haven't been through what I've been through. They're not the slayer. I am. Sometimes I feel—(sighs) this is awful—I feel like I'm better than them. Superior.

HOLDEN
Until you can't win. And I thought I was diabolical—or, at least I plan to be. You do have a superiority complex. And you've got an inferiority complex about it. (laughs) Kudos.

BUFFY
It doesn't make any sense.

HOLDEN
(sits forward) Oh, it makes every kind of sense. And it all adds up to you feeling alone. But, Buffy, everybody feels alone. Everybody is, until you die.

I think Holden sums it up nicely--she feels alone. Buffy doesn't feel like she can't love her friends or boyfriends--she feels like their love isn't the comfort her that it should be because their experiences are too different from hers. But that has nothing to do with Buffy's ability to feel love for others.

And she feels ashamed that she's allowed a distance to grow between herself and them. I think that's sort of a sign that she does love them (both friends and boyfriends)--because if she didn't love them, why would she feel so guilty?

Annoyance of the day:

no subject

no subject

no subject

no subject

no subject

no subject

no subject

no subject

no subject