Annoyance of the day:

[lirazel]

People who flat-out say that Buffy didn't love Spike despite the fact that she said she did.

She said she did. The only reason we have to believe that she didn't is one thing Spike said, and since when do people believe anything that comes out of Spike's mouth? Boy can speak the truth that no one else will, but he also says a ton of b.s., and everyone knows it.

I just hatehatehatehatehatehate all of these people sitting around telling a woman (and it would be a woman--if a man said, it I think a lot less people would disagree with her) who finds it nearly impossible to say the words "I love you" even to people she regards as family (remember "Intervention"? That's canon) that she doesn't love someone when she said she did.

I don't have a problem with people quibbling over the nature of her love. You can argue that she didn't love him romantically or as much as she did Angel or whatever (I would disagree with the first one and re: the second, I would remind you that, as the_royal_anna says, we don't love in amounts. We love in ways). That's legit. But to say, flat-out, that she didn't love him even though she says she did takes agency away from Buffy in a way that I am entirely uncomfortable with and that DRIVES ME CRAZY, OKAY. If she had said she loved Riley (she didn't, did she?), I would be pissed at people saying she didn't love him, either. Uuuugh why does this annoy me so much?

Comments

[shipperx.livejournal.com]

I'm going to go out on a limb and say I don't think this necessarily boils down to gender bias so much as the specific characters involved.

I mean, over on Mad Men, Don claims he's fallen madly in love with Megan and absolutely no one (save Megan) believes him. Most believe that he believes it... while Peggy and Joan make fun of it while smoking in Joan's office(and that was a great scene.)

[penny-lane-42.livejournal.com]

Nonetheless, it's much more fraught when it involves a woman, since the history of the human race is the history of women being told that they don't know anything, even their own feelings, and that other people (read: men) know better than they do.

It irritates me in a way that's entirely related to gender.

[shipperx.livejournal.com]

But how many times do we say that some guy fell for some young thing because of a mid-life crisis? People are often dismissive of relationships that they don't understand or that don't meet their own criteria.

[penny-lane-42.livejournal.com]

That's true, but those dismissals of men are not accompanied by millenia of baggage the way they are when they dismiss a woman.

[next_to_normal]

Well, I certainly don't think it's conscious gender bias. But it does bother me more with Buffy because of the cultural history of dismissing women's agency.

I also think it has something to do with the textual cues - we're clearly being told not to believe Don, because everyone and their mother questions it in the text. That's not really the case with Buffy, which makes it even more troubling that so many fans do question her.

[shipperx.livejournal.com]

I"m going to get myself in trouble here, but the whole thing with Buffy is that she is so clearly conflicted over what she does and doesn't feel.

It reminds me of some of the issues with the character of Katniss in The Hunger Games and how she has a really difficult time figuring these things out. I sympathize with the character. God knows she's been put through hell, and there are so many conflicting circumstances involved. But there is very real confusion and even ambivalence in what she feels.

Sometimes people have a very difficult time figuring out their emotions. And I cannot dismiss the way that circumstances influence these things. Both factors (in addition to personal history) are at play. In the end, sometimes... it's complicated.

[next_to_normal]

I"m going to get myself in trouble here, but the whole thing with Buffy is that she is so clearly conflicted over what she does and doesn't feel.

I don't know about trouble, lol, but "clearly conflicted" definitely makes me raise an eyebrow, because I think there are plenty of people who will say that Buffy clearly did love Spike in S7. (And I would be one of them, heh.) Watching her interact with him, it's pretty obvious to me that she loves him, even if she didn't say it or admit it to herself until it was too late. Why shouldn't we believe her when she figures it out?

[shipperx.livejournal.com]

You're really determined to get me into trouble, aren't you? LOL. :)

Okay, let's see.

I kind of agree with Penny (but not necessarily in the way that she would prefer) that pursuing a love is a choice. And as far as Spuffy goes, I'm more inclined to believe that Buffy does love Spike than that she chooses to. And a real, growing romantic relationship requires a helping of both. (Conversely, I'm more inclined to think that Buffy would choose to love Riley more than she actually does.) I say this while cognizant of the fact that when Buffy did voice her love for Spike, it was after Spike was already done for. No future is implied. In fact, it was being rendered an 'impossibility' even before she spoke. And I say it taking into account the way that Buffy has behaved in the past, leaping onto Riley the moment he arrives, eager to date Robin, giggling and smiling like a school-girl the moment that Angel arrives in town. Meanwhile, Spike tells her she's 'the one' and she's quick to say that she doesn't want to be, and when Spike asks if it meant something she asks whether it has to mean something. I think the connection is there between them, but Spike doesn't fit her mental concept of who or what she wants, so she cannot verbalize or even really openly perceive that love... except in the context where she doesn't have to envision any future in it. She never manages to choose to pursue a romantic affiliation with Spike when it's there for the having, open ended and with a possibility for a future. Only under the circumstances when that door has already been closed. That's an internal conflict that I don't think was ever resolved (and it's exacerbated to no end by the 'follow-up' in the excessively crappy comics which, for this response I'll try very hard to ignore.)

By contrast, Riley is who she thinks she should love and tries to very, very hard. And Angel sits as some romantic ideal (primarily because she actually doesn't have to interact with him day to day. You can't see flaws at a certain distance).

And the reason Spike doesn't believe her is because every instance prior to that where he thinks she might, the circumstances are plagued with plausible deniability. (Such as her saying "I'm not ready for you not to be here." Sure it's a request that he stay, but it also indicates there will be a time when she will be ready for him to go).

Maybe what he sees is true...or maybe it isn't. He can't trust his judgement on this post Seeing Red. He guessed way too wrongly before. And the truth is, just as her gestures in Season 7 might connote love, it's hard for him not to think that they aren't also laced with pity (and perhaps a sense of guilt or obligation or perhaps even the Slayer of it all). The fact is, Buffy doesn't make clear what her motivations were and he cannot trust his perceptions of them. And then in Touched she leaves to go do these things without him even when he was on her side. She wonders whether it has to mean something, and then Angel arrives and she giggles and glows and kisses him...all in ways she never ever did Spike. And she only finds the words for Spike when there's no future or tie implied by them -- when he's dying. When it's really, really easy to pity the guy who loved her and who is frying in front of her eyes. That leaves considerable room for reasonable doubt and another spectre of plausible deniability.

I'd truly like to believe that Buffy did love him. But, I don't think it's unreasonable for me as an audience member to want a single unambiguous moment, one that leaves open an avenue instead of arriving after that avenue is already closed. One that isn't haunted by the spectre of plausible deniability.

I also want a pony... and calorie free chocolate. :)

[rebcake.livejournal.com]

I have no doubt that Buffy loved Spike, and I can point to all kinds of things that she did to indicate that. But I also think that she loved him long before she admitted it to herself or anyone else. Your point about her refusal to choose to love him is right on the money, honey! (Though I think she did, it was just too late.) It's something the people will be debating for a long, long time.

[next_to_normal]

I kind of agree with Penny (but not necessarily in the way that she would prefer) that pursuing a love is a choice. And as far as Spuffy goes, I'm more inclined to believe that Buffy does love Spike than that she chooses to.

I don't want to put words in Lauren's mouth, so she can jump in if she feels differently, but I don't think "love is a choice" means that you sit down and say, "Okay, I'm going to love this person now."

It means that you make the choice to trust them, to sacrifice for them, to be loyal to them, etc. And Buffy clearly does make those choices.

She chooses to believe in Spike, even when he's killing people. She chooses to save him from the First, even when everyone else is telling her to get her priorities straight. She chooses to trust him enough to take the chip out. She chooses to stand by him, even though it means going against Giles. She chooses to sleep in his arms, even though he tried to rape her. She chooses to draw strength from him, even when her instinct is to go it alone. If that's not love, what is?

Saying the words at that point is just icing on the cake.

Also, I think you're conflating two different things here when you talk about Spike. I absolutely understand why Spike doesn't believe her. But Spike is too close to the situation to be objective. Of course he's reluctant to believe it, after he was so horribly wrong before. But we, as outside observers, get to see how Buffy behaves when Spike's not around. We don't have the emotional baggage that Spike does. And while, as Spuffy shippers, we'd certainly be disappointed if she didn't love him, we have nowhere near as much invested in it as Spike does. It's not our hearts that'll get broken if she rejects him; it's Spike's.

As for an unambiguous moment, I guess you must have a different standard than I do, because these say it all for me.

[shipperx.livejournal.com]

It means that you make the choice to trust them, to sacrifice for them, to be loyal to them, etc. And Buffy clearly does make those choices

All true. But we can also make those same choices for friends who are not our lovers. It in and of itself is not necessarily a litmus test proving romantic love or romantic interest.

Saying the words at that point is just icing on the cake.
But perhaps necessary in a relationship that has been plagued with miscommunication and misunderstanding. Certainly, it's not an unreasonable desire to want the words.

Also, I think you're conflating two different things here when you talk about Spike.
I'm not entirely sure what you mean here. I'm saying that this is what Spike believes and why he believes it. I'm not saying he's necessarily correct, just that there are real reasons why Spike has the point of view that he has.

As for an unambiguous moment, I guess you must have a different standard
This is most likely true. And a lot of people have a myriad of responses and viewpoints. I do think though, if it were completely unambiguous it wouldn't be the source of so many debates so many years after the airing of the episode. And I don't think the ambiguity was unintentional. I think Joss specifically wrote the ambiguity there because he was deliberately trying to serve more than one ship in the episode, and that muddles things.

[next_to_normal]

But we can also make those same choices for friends who are not our lovers. It in and of itself is not necessarily a litmus test proving romantic love or romantic interest.

I never said it was. To quote from penny_lane_42's original post: "I don't have a problem with people quibbling over the nature of her love. You can argue that she didn't love him romantically" but that not she didn't love him at all.

I'm not saying he's necessarily correct, just that there are real reasons why Spike has the point of view that he has.

We weren't really talking about Spike, though, we were talking about the fans' reaction, so I took it as you equating the two - i.e. if Spike doesn't believe her, why should we?

[(Anonymous)]

To be perfectly honest, I never felt perfectly certain. Season 6 didn't just damage Buffy or Spike. As a viewer I had interpreted things such as Buffy turning to Spike in AfterLife, and Flooded and all the lovely gracenotes of early Season 6 as signs that she did indeed care. Then we had Spike say that it was just "whispering in a deadman's ear" and I was confused. What? Really? No. Surely, surely it meant something. Gestures like that? They had to. But I kept being told that it was just Buffy being depressed and using Spike and using Spike as a way of punishing herself and I didn't want to believe that. But after that looooong season, at some point I had to give in that the story they were saying they were telling was indeed the story that they were trying to tell. So, much like Spike, i ceased trusting my read of Buffy-gestures. I don't know for sure. I needed clarity that wasn't provided. So at the end of the day, I hoped that Buffy meant it. I wanted to believe in the things that I saw, but I had believed in what I had seen before and that turned out to be a mirage. So while I hope that she meant it and hope that it was true, I can't say that I was wholly confident (and I can't say that the comics haven't undermined even that). I always had room for doubt even as I chose to believe. But I can't say that belief came with confident certainty on my part. It never did.

[shipperx.livejournal.com]

Crap. That was me. I don't know why my computer does this on the first post every night.

[gabrielleabelle.livejournal.com]

all the lovely gracenotes of early Season 6 as signs that she did indeed care.

But I kept being told that it was just Buffy being depressed and using Spike and using Spike as a way of punishing herself and I didn't want to believe that.

I don't think these two are mutually exclusive, by any means...

Buffy said herself in Seeing Red that she had feelings for Spike. She said it wasn't love, then, but that's the foundation from which her feelings for him in S7 developed.

[blackfrancine.livejournal.com]

t means that you make the choice to trust them, to sacrifice for them, to be loyal to them, etc. And Buffy clearly does make those choices. She chooses to believe in Spike, even when he's killing people. She chooses to save him from the First, even when everyone else is telling her to get her priorities straight. She chooses to trust him enough to take the chip out. She chooses to stand by him, even though it means going against Giles. She chooses to sleep in his arms, even though he tried to rape her. She chooses to draw strength from him, even when her instinct is to go it alone. If that's not love, what is?

Gah! This is full of beauty and truth. I may have just teared up a little.

[next_to_normal]

Hee! Thanks! :)

[gabrielleabelle.livejournal.com]

I don't have much to say about the general meat of your comment (I think S7 is ambiguous enough for a few different readings) but this kinda struck me as skewed:

leaping onto Riley the moment he arrives, eager to date Robin, giggling and smiling like a school-girl the moment that Angel arrives in town.

Point on Angel. She didn't immediately leap onto Riley, though. She's largely oblivious to him up until he starts showing an interest. Even then, it takes her several episodes to convince herself that she might enjoy being with him. Likewise with Robin. She'd been working with him at the school for many, many episodes before he asks her out. And she's decidedly ambivalent about the might-be date, not "eager".

After Angel, Buffy pretty much always takes some time to waffle on the dating thing.

[shipperx.livejournal.com]

She's largely oblivious to him up until he starts showing an interest

I was unclear. I meant in "As You Were"

[gabrielleabelle.livejournal.com]

Ah, gotcha. I think the depression context (coupled with the fact that it's an old flame, not a new potential love) makes that an abnormal situation. The norm for Buffy is to take her time sorting out her feelings (as she did when first dating Riley and when Robin asked her out to dinner).

[rebcake.livejournal.com]

I'm largely with shipperx on this, in that from Spike's perspective Buffy is unambiguously affectionate with all of her old flames (except him) and seems open to the idea of romance with someone, so long as it's not him. His perspective is inaccurate, IMO, but he has sound reasons for thinking what he does.

[gabrielleabelle.livejournal.com]

From my reading, shipperx wasn't talking about Spike's perspective, so I don't see how that's relevant.

Unless I'm grossly misunderstanding, she was positing the argument that Buffy is often eager to jump into relationships and enthusiastically does so, using Angel, Riley, and Robin as examples. I provided counter-arguments because I see Buffy as being the exact opposite after Angel: She's often hesitant and reluctant to enter into a new relationship.

[jennylayne.livejournal.com]

I'd truly like to believe that Buffy did love him. But, I don't think it's unreasonable for me as an audience member to want a single unambiguous moment, one that leaves open an avenue instead of arriving after that avenue is already closed. One that isn't haunted by the spectre of plausible deniability.I'd truly like to believe that Buffy did love him. But, I don't think it's unreasonable for me as an audience member to want a single unambiguous moment, one that leaves open an avenue instead of arriving after that avenue is already closed. One that isn't haunted by the spectre of plausible deniability.

Wow. Can I just say that you have hit the nail EXACTLY on the head in every single way with your(entire)comment here, but particularly this.

You have articulated exactly how I feel about the Buffy/Spike relationship, wish I had the talent for expressing it that you do but thank you for saying what has been floating around in my head for several years and making it so clear. :)

[gryfndor-godess.livejournal.com]

she cannot verbalize or even really openly perceive that love... except in the context where she doesn't have to envision any future in it. She never manages to choose to pursue a romantic affiliation with Spike when it's there for the having, open ended and with a possibility for a future. Only under the circumstances when that door has already been closed.

every instance prior to that where he thinks she might, the circumstances are plagued with plausible deniability. (Such as her saying "I'm not ready for you not to be here." Sure it's a request that he stay, but it also indicates there will be a time when she will be ready for him to go).

I love this comment. I'm too tired to write any coherent thoughts that actually add to the discussion, but I just thought I would say that I completely agree with your rationale for why Spike (and some audience members) might not believe Buffy.

[shipperx.livejournal.com]

Thanks. Sometimes I wonder whether I'm expressing myself very clearly. Things are easily miscommunicated in posts.