lirazel | Annoyance of the day:

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Annoyance of the day:

People who flat-out say that Buffy didn't love Spike despite the fact that she said she did.

She said she did. The only reason we have to believe that she didn't is one thing Spike said, and since when do people believe anything that comes out of Spike's mouth? Boy can speak the truth that no one else will, but he also says a ton of b.s., and everyone knows it.

I just hatehatehatehatehatehate all of these people sitting around telling a woman (and it would be a woman--if a man said, it I think a lot less people would disagree with her) who finds it nearly impossible to say the words "I love you" even to people she regards as family (remember "Intervention"? That's canon) that she doesn't love someone when she said she did.

I don't have a problem with people quibbling over the nature of her love. You can argue that she didn't love him romantically or as much as she did Angel or whatever (I would disagree with the first one and re: the second, I would remind you that, as

the_royal_anna says, we don't love in amounts. We love in ways). That's legit. But to say, flat-out, that she didn't love him even though she says she did takes agency away from Buffy in a way that I am entirely uncomfortable with and that DRIVES ME CRAZY, OKAY. If she had said she loved Riley (she didn't, did she?), I would be pissed at people saying she didn't love him, either. Uuuugh why does this annoy me so much?

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I'm pretty sure most people who say that (I have said it on occasion) are offering the opinion you noted at the end, which is that they believe she loved him as a friend/companion/etc but was not in love with him. I have never seen anyone say that she didn't have any love for him whatsoever. Like, I've never seen that. I'm honestly curious where you have?

Reason for the post.

Well that's just textually inaccurate.

Exactly. :D

Yeah that person is just a doof with a clear shipper agenda.

Which is exactly why I just rolled my eyes and came back here instead of engaging.

Charisma Carpenter makes the very greatest bitch plz faces in the world.

It's a gift she has.

I gather this person is a Bangel?

I don't know this person, but I'm thinking that's a fair assumption.

I was just basing it on the vehemence of their saying that she only loved Angel. I've never quite gotten the Bangel-shipper concept of a zero-sum emotion. It's entirely possible to love more than one person romantically over the course of one's life. It just is.

I can say she's neither a Bangel or a Spuffy and I know that because she's my wife.

So what is behind her vehemently singular view that Buffy could never love anyone but Angel? That kind of singularity is usually the provenance of Bangel shippers. Most others allow some leeway --at least in a theoretical sense-- that there is room in her heart/future for someone, whoever that might be and that to do otherwise is perhaps unhealthy for Buffy.

Edited 2010-12-14 21:10 (UTC)

I've lost the will to argue or comment. Now I just answer such posts with *headdesk* and a WTF icon.

BTW, there's even a poll about it on buffyforums.
http://www.buffyforums.net/forums/showthread.php?t=17028 Apparently 30% of people think that she didn't mean it.

Well, I really don't get the "she loved him as friend" argument... She loved him the way she loves Willow? Seriously?! IMO the idea of Buffy and Spike as 'just friends' is, well, the most hilarious concept ever. They always had sexual tension, even as enemies, and throughout S7, they know they're not just friends, everyone around them knows they're not just friends, Buffy doesn't define what he is to her but she never pretends that he is a "friend". They're just friends because they didn't have sex or make out in S7? There are very obvious reasons for that, and it's not a lack of attraction. There's love, but there's also sexual attraction, and there's jealousy. That's not what 'friends' feel for each other. If Buffy had cuddled in bed with Xander in S7 and gotten all jealous of him sleeping with Anya or trying to date the lady from "First Date", or if Xander had indicated he didn't want her to date someone else if she wanted him to stick around and she complied... Or if she had cuddled with Willow in bed, gotten jealous about her and Kennedy, and decided not to date anyone else because Willow doesn't approve... I'm sure the boards wouldn't be all aflame, and I'm sure that everyone would agree that Buffy loved Xander or Willow "only as a friend"! :p

If you love someone, you feel sexual desire for them, you don't want them to have sex with other people, and you agree not to get involved with other people if you are going to try to have a relationship with that person, I call that "romantic love". The "it's not romantic love" idea kind of baffles me and makes me wonder what exactly people mean by "romantic". I'm guessing that it has to have a conventionally "romantic" coating like Bangel had.

Preach, sister.

Word to all of this.

But especially to the jealousy stuff. That's actually a really important piece of evidence that I often forget about. Buffy is CLEARLY jealous of Faith in Dirty Girls. And it's not at all unexpected that Spike would be jealous of Wood or Angel--but what is perhaps unexpected is that both times, Buffy makes an effort to placate Spike out of his jealous huffs. She goes to him first in First Date, then asks him not to leave town. And in Chosen she talks him down from his Angel-induced fury and chooses him to fight with her. And chooses him AGAIN to spend her last 2 nights on the planet with.

You don't do that if it's just a friend who's carrying a torch for you.

Plenty of friendships are sexual ones. I'm certainly not arguing that their relationship isn't one involving sexual attraction. Caring about someone and having sex with them =/= being in love with them.

But thank you for making leaps of assumption about my need for 'conventional' romance.

What exactly makes "being in love with someone"? I'd like to have that explained. Apparently, love, desire, jealousy, and willingness not to have any other partners is not enough. What is?

And I have never seen a "friendship" where people love each other and have sex and are jealous of a possibility of either of them having sex with someone else, and making steps to ensure the other person that they won't have sex with anyone else. That's a very odd definition of friendship.

I think plenty of people feel jealousy over or ownership of a friend, especially a 'friend with benefits'. That doesn't mean they're in love.

I'm also not sure where 'a willingness not to have any other partners' is coming from, here. Spike certainly doesn't (and I'd never contest his post-soul love for Buffy), but Buffy is certainly interested in dating Robin Wood until he starts being a total dink.

Being in love involves a sublimation of self and a desire for egalitarian partnership. It's a primal need to be with someone because they complete you. I just don't think she views Spike that way. These are things I have never seen in Buffy Summers. I'm not BLAMING her, or denigrating her character. Being the Slayer is a rough gig, and she has a lot of baggage from that, from her father issues, from her Angelus issues, and they're all quite reasonable things to be tied up about.

I think she loves him very much, but I do not think she is in love with him. I think he is the friend she values most in the world, and that she knows he loves her and wishes she could reciprocate fully. I think she says it because she wants it to be true. I think he gives her permission not to feel it, and they share a very important moment of complicated companionship.

Honestly, have you never had a friend you had sex with and cared for deeply but didn't view in a romantic context? I certainly have. I don't think it devalues their relationship at all.

Edited 2010-12-14 23:56 (UTC)

I'm also not sure where 'a willingness not to have any other partners' is coming from, here. Spike certainly doesn't (and I'd never contest his post-soul love for Buffy), but Buffy is certainly interested in dating Robin Wood until he starts being a total dink.

No, Buffy attempts to date Wood, but when Spike offers to leave and she tells him she wants him to stay, and he indicates that that wouldn't work if she is going to try to be dating Wood, she never tries to date Wood again. And to quote blackfrancine's post above, "And it's not at all unexpected that Spike would be jealous of Wood or Angel--but what is perhaps unexpected is that both times, Buffy makes an effort to placate Spike out of his jealous huffs. She goes to him first in First Date, then asks him not to leave town. And in Chosen she talks him down from his Angel-induced fury and chooses him to fight with her. And chooses him AGAIN to spend her last 2 nights on the planet with."

Being in love involves a sublimation of self and a desire for egalitarian partnership. It's a primal need to be with someone because they complete you.

Uh... if I told you what exactly I think about that definition, I'd sound very rude, so I won't. I'll just ask, what if I don't feel like an incomplete person, and don't feel like I need anyone to "complete" me?

I'll just ask, what if I don't feel like an incomplete person, and don't feel like I need anyone to "complete" me?

Then... don't date? Plenty of people are aromantic. I'm speaking poetically, regardless; obviously everyone is a complete person unto themselves. But being in love involves the sense that you need the other person, fundamentally. I don't think this is that out of line here.

Actually, yes, telling people they shouldn't date because they don't feel incomplete on their own is out of line. And this has nothing to do with being "romantic". The idea that you should be with someone because you fundamentally need</> them, rather than because you want it, even though you are perfectly able to live on your own, or that should you love them because you need them, rather than loving them simply for who they are, is pretty disturbing to me.

And I tend to think that loving someone because you need them is an immature form of love. I roll my eyes when people say they can't live without someone.

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No, Buffy attempts to date Wood, but when Spike offers to leave and she tells him she wants him to stay, and he indicates that that wouldn't work if she is going to try to be dating Wood, she never tries to date Wood again.

Yes. This is such an interesting, subtle way to read that scene. I love it. I've always struggled a little to figure out what Buffy's expression means when she looks at Spike after he asks where Wood fits in if he stays in town. And I love this read. That she's figuring out, even as she's asking Spike to stay, that Wood doesn't fit in. That she won't be dating him again.

AND. More about the jealousy (because I'm excited to think about this)! It's interesting to me how when Buffy's dating Wood, Spike is jealous (I mean, duh--the poor guy is crushed)--but he's willing to play it cool and back out and not cause waves. But by the time Angel strolls into town, he's actually secure enough in her affection/feelings for him, that he's willing to confront her about the kiss. And he's willing own his jealousy. To me, that shows that there is something beyond the flicker of jealousy one might feel at seeing an ex move on or what 2 friends would feel. Because if he thought there was nothing real between them, he'd have hid his feelings, like he did when she was going out with Wood. But as it is, he feels like he has a legitimate grievance.

And Buffy. She justifies his brazen display of jealousy. Because right away, she feels guilty (and I think she sort of does in First Date, too--when Spike comes into the restaurant and sees Wood feeding her. I think she feels like she's betraying Spike--which tells me that she thinks that there's something substantial between them too). But back to Chosen--she starts making excuses and dodges right from the beginning of their Angel-kiss conversation. She stops short of actually apologizing--but she stops just short of it. They both know that there's something between them. It's tangible.

Also: I'm going to friend you if that's okay. Because I've seen you around a bit lately, and I love reading your comments.

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boot-the-grime.livejournal.com - 2010-12-15 12:31 (UTC) - Expand

What exactly makes "being in love with someone"? I'd like to have that explained. Apparently, love, desire, jealousy, and willingness not to have any other partners is not enough. What is?

I'd add the need for joy in there somewhere, if only in the joy of experiencing the emotion (not that joy precludes tragedy or sadness. Just that at some point somewhere there needs to be a feeling of elation associated with love. Even if it's self-contained and fleeting.

throughout S7, they know they're not just friends, everyone around them knows they're not just friends

Word. And I can't remember Joss's exact words now, but his commentary from Chosen also backs up the idea that the writers were very deliberately not just writing Spike and Buffy as platonic friends. (Joss also made a very big deal on the Hush commentary about what the hand imagery meant to him with Willow/Tara, so I think it's easy to see that he was trying to say something more in the Chosen handclasp than Buffy being grateful to a friend)

I for one have never seen Buffy hold Xander or Willow's hand with sexual tension as she did with Spike in Potential, give them the intense look she gave Spike in Showtime, or sleep in their arms while staring into their eyes as in Touched. End Of Days even included a discussion of what that night meant. Again not something that happens with platonic friends. And Buffy might not have given the firm committment that people wanted, but she certainly didn't give Spike the brush-off with "you know that's not what we're about" either. She outright says that maybe when this is over

I understand people arguing over the degree to which Buffy loved Spike because obviously we will all have differing opinions, but I find it hard to follow the argument that she loved Spike as just a friend in season 7. Xander was a strictly platonic friend to her. Spike? Spike was something else

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