Thinky thoughts of the Spike-ish kind

[lirazel]

This is one of those "I'm having a conversation on whedonesque; tell me what you think about what I'm saying" posts.

This particular conversation starts out about Willow/Tara (and my thoughts line up precisely with Emmie's, big surprise there) and then becomes about S6 and then, finally, becomes about Spike.

And I just wrote a novel.

But I feel like I left something vital out.

Any thoughts?

Comments

[elisi]

Started skimming the comments and came across this:

I think Willow post-reeducation with the coven would have been able to find permanent happiness with Tara had the ash-blonde been restored to her.
'The ash-blonde'??? Next does someone mention Buffy's orbs?

Anyway, I got to your comment, and (although I don't agree with everything) this is it, exactly:

that's why "Chosen" is so important: because finally, finally he's found something that's real and his. After searching for it since he was alive. He thought it was what Drusilla offered him in the stable in 1880, but that wasn't it. "Chosen" was it.

(I actually explored this in a fic once, so I've given it a lot of thought.)

[penny-lane-42.livejournal.com]

'The ash-blonde'??? Next does someone mention Buffy's orbs?
Oh my goodness. I read right over that, and THANK GOD. That's one of my personal fic pet peeves. Wow.

The more I think about Spike's ending in "Chosen," the more absolutely perfect I think it is. I'll have to check your fic out!

Just out of curiosity, what do you disagree with in particular? People have such very, very different views about Spike that I'm always interested in reading other people's.

[http://users.livejournal.com/_jems_/]

I have nothing to say except that I admire your ability to keep your cool. I feel like that guy must have just completely misunderstood the whole show if he saw Spike like that. But you seem to think he had some interesting things to say, so all I can then think is that his resentment of the character and his development while all the rest were left behind was so big that he's just completely blind when it comes to Spike. Because no matter how much you hate the guy, no one can argue that Spike isn't a complete loser. (Haha, that may be one of my favorite sentences I've ever written.)

[penny-lane-42.livejournal.com]

Thank you! I don't always keep my cool over there (seriously, I need a tag for "this is a whedonesque post, and I'm mad" because it happens often), but I'm in a good mood today, so he didn't tick me off immediately.

As for this guy in particular, he has some interesting thoughts on Dollhouse that I've appreciated, but our views of BtVS couldn't possibly be more different.

Because no matter how much you hate the guy, no one can argue that Spike isn't a complete loser. It's one of my favorite sentences ever, too!

[rebcake.livejournal.com]

Nope. You've pretty much summed up the arc beautifully. James Marsters says that the writers did screw up the initial point of the show by making Spike the ultimate outsider on a show that celebrated outsiders, but I personally think it made it all more interesting when they had to face that their heroes had real, ugly failings, and not just cute, quirky ones.

The only place where I disagree with you is that I liked comic relief S4 Spike just as much as the other iterations.

Carry on.

[penny-lane-42.livejournal.com]

I like S4 comic relief Spike...but I don't particularly like him as Spike. Does that make sense? Like he's funny and everything, and I always enjoy it when he's onscreen, but when I think of the unfolding arc of his character, a lot of what he does in S4 just doesn't fit as well as the other season's stuff.

but I personally think it made it all more interesting when they had to face that their heroes had real, ugly failings, and not just cute, quirky ones.


Exactly. Exactly the reason that I love S6.

[bloodypoetry.livejournal.com]

While funny Spike is good, I wish they'd showed the chipping and subsequent helplessness/starving/etc of Spike in a less humorous light. Sure, all the other characters on the show saw it as humorous, but it would have been more compelling if they went to a darker place with it.

[angearia.livejournal.com]

Oh god yes. I found it very disturbing that Willow/Tara was being whitewashed and set up as the perfect relationship. No no no. I mean, yes, they're quite adorable and sweet at times (and often too sweet in the manner that makes me gag and eye-roll), but they also got very messed up. And Tara was far too often subordinate to Willow until Willow abused her too much and Tara had to get out. It reminds me of the trope of the abusive, controlling husband and the wife who finally grew enough backbone to remove herself from the unhealthy situation. The fact that she goes back because she misses the one who abused her is actually pretty sad when the abuser never really owned up to the issues nor change until after the 'wife' dies and the 'husband' learns a horrible lesson from trying to end the world after losing his obsession that he needed to control in order to be happy. Even the fact that Willow wants to keep Tara to herself in the beginning is a bit disturbing when looked at in this light.

*goes to read your comment*

[next_to_normal]

Yeah, I was really glad to see your comment, because as soon as I read the description of the essay, I went, "Whaat?" I love Willow/Tara, but perfect or even "not failed" they are not.

Although, now that I'm thinking about it, I wonder what should be considered the most "ideal" relationship on Buffy. There's pretty slim pickings there...

[penny-lane-42.livejournal.com]

(and often too sweet in the manner that makes me gag and eye-roll), Definitely. Willow's baby voice makes me stabby. But I can understand the appeal to other people.

I agree with everything you have to say. I actually think it's really interesting that all this takes place in a context outside the heteronormative male-female relationship...but it seems that because it does, people miss the fact that is, in fact, enacting an abusive relationship. Which makes it interesting, but also lets others hand-wave because Willow and Tara are cute.

[next_to_normal]

Sounds pretty good to me. :) *gives Eowyn stamp of approval*

[penny-lane-42.livejournal.com]

Yay!

I have discovered that we agree about a lot of things re: BtVS. Which always makes me happy. I often see your comments and think, "Yes, exactly." Which is a good feeling.

[hkath.livejournal.com]

Wow, it's nice to see people discussing things in a civilized manner like that. It's so unusual, from my experience. Heh. I think you hit the nail right on the head and were consistent in your explanation. I was kind of wowed by that guy's take on the show and Spike's character, because they were completely opposite to mine. But then again, I am also very much Spike. Embarrassingly so.

[penny-lane-42.livejournal.com]

I'm really glad that I saw this on a day when I'm in a good mood. Because I usually end up testy on whedonesque (especially when it comes to feminism issues. I always expect people there to be more enlightened than they are, and I end up getting rage-y). So yeah, it's nice to agree civilly.

I was kind of wowed by that guy's take on the show and Spike's character, because they were completely opposite to mine. I KNOW! I think that a lot of people who aren't fans of his character are just bitter. And I usually hate the "They're just jealous!" argument, but

But then again, I am also very much Spike. Embarrassingly so.
This makes me feel better about myself. I really do identify with him to an unhealthy degree, even though I lack some of the rebelliousness he manifests (though if I was a vampire with no moral compass, that wouldn't be the case). I often think, "If Spike was a modern Southern 23-year-old woman instead of a British Victorian-gentleman-turned-vampire, he would be just like me."

[slaymesoftly.livejournal.com]

I thought it was perfect. I didn't read that much farther past the first to responses to your post, but I didn't see anything new. You hit the main button on the head, which was that Spike's coolness was all a front, for a man/vampire who was never quite what he wanted to be. I have no idea where or how the guy you were responding to managed to miss that completely. Other than, perhaps he identifies with Xander and let that influence how he views Spike?

[penny-lane-42.livejournal.com]

Aw! Thanks!

You know, I don't think that he really identifies with Xander? Not that I've noticed in other threads, at least. He seems to be really, really, really into Faith, which I wouldn't think would create the blind-spot when it comes to Spike....But this is a position I've seen before with other people, and it's one I've never understood.

[prophecygirrl.livejournal.com]

Your discussion was passionate, but respectful. Way to represent! \o/

[penny-lane-42.livejournal.com]

Thanks!

[gabrielleabelle.livejournal.com]

Ah, I'm glad you and Emmie comment to Whedonesque so I don't have to. :)

Though I wish I had my Whose Show is it Anyway? stats for you to link him to. You handled it deftly, in any case. :)

And thanks for throwing out a link to my Willow meta!

[penny-lane-42.livejournal.com]

Hee! I often feel the same way when Emmie comments. I was gonna say something in that very thread much earlier, but then she said it, so I didn't have to.

I actually thought, "Now would be a really, really good time to throw line-stats at him." ;)

You're welcome! It really is the best Willow meta I've seen (not that I go looking for them...), and I think you did a fantastic job with it. I loved it lots!

[shamoogity.livejournal.com]

I really adore reading your thoughts on BtVS, even when I disagree. In this case, I very much agree with your Willow/Tara thoughts (I have always thought that the best thing about their relationship is that even when things were going great, the seeds were already planted for its ultimate failure), but don't agree quite as much on Spike. I agree that he is definitely more of a loser than a "cool guy" but I disagree that they wrote him better than the other characters in S7. He went from being my favourite character in S5 and 6 to being the character whose scenes bored me to tears. It's interesting how so many people look at S7 as when they really fell in love with Spike because I found his scenes very repetitive. And as much as I never really shipped him and Buffy, I at least found their interactions really interesting prior to S7, at which point I started rolling my eyes half the time when they were on screen together.

Anyway, I guess I'm not really disagreeing with you on any particular points so much as on personal preference.

Hey look, I have a Spike S7 icon. I feel a bit hypocritical now.

[penny-lane-42.livejournal.com]

Aw! That's so nice to hear!

I have always thought that the best thing about their relationship is that even when things were going great, the seeds were already planted for its ultimate failure I totally agree with this, and that's a great way of putting it.

I don't think everyone should like Spike or whatnot, I just think it's silly to view him as a "cool" guy who's way more awesome than the other characters and who (apparently?) the other characters are always praising for being awesome. I just don't see that reading on the show at all. The evidence isn't there.

That said, I don't always love what he went through in S7. The First's pawn thing doesn't work for me. But at least he has an arc. Poor Xander doesn't. Plus, there really is some fantastic writing: "Beneath You," "Sleeper," etc. I love that. I fell in love with him in "Fool for Love," so I always already there, but I like the trajectory of his arc in S7. Even if I know what you mean about certain scenes getting repetitive (certainly, there are some!).

What I love about Buffy and Spike's relationship in S7 is that they're both so isolated from everyone else (Spike's even lost Dawn, his one ally...which I really hate, since I loved their relationship), and so they have to rely on each other. It seems to me that most American culture wants to tell us that in order to be strong, you have to be independent. I like seeing how being dependent upon each other makes them stronger. It's such a nice change.

Also, my key to enjoying Buffy and Spike's relationship in S7 is to watch what they do, not what they say. Because they certainly don't say much worth listening to ("Never Leave Me" professions of faith aside). For instance, the speech in "Touched" doesn't do anything for me. But they way they physically interact in that scene...that hits my sweet spot.

Anyway, I guess I'm not really disagreeing with you on any particular points so much as on personal preference. Which is totally valid, and I respect and understand where you're coming from. It makes perfect sense, even if I disagree.

Hee! Well, I have a Fred icon, and I really don't like Fred, so I guess I'm hypocritical, too.

[ohwaluvusbab.livejournal.com]

Your comments were on the money, yo. No worries.

You know, I've seen that 'Spike was too cool' attitude so many times it's starting to not faze me anymore. I generally dismiss the other person as an idiot and carry on with my day :)
And yeah, I'd also identify as a 'Spike'. (Though 'Willow' and 'Buffy' are applicable too.)

And lastly: OMG. The idea that Willow/Tara were the hallmark of a healthy relationship.. SERIOUSLY. WHAT.
Maybe I'm just completely jaded, as a Buffy/Spike shipper - no one of whom can claim to have any 'moral high ground' in fandom (not to mention preconditioned to be very very cynical about the notion of True Love as pretty much a ship requirement) - but this sort of idealisation... is exactly why I don't ship W/T. Or Buffy/Angel. Or whatever other pairings that writer deemed The Love Everyone Should Aspire To. Yeah. Really don't.

Granted, I am a weirdo.

(And for the record: Whoever stated on that thread that Willow's mind-rape of Tara was surely worse than Spike's attempted rape, was 100% correct. Four for you, Glenn Coco.)

[penny-lane-42.livejournal.com]

Whedonesque always makes me feel that I'm representing all of Spike/Spuffy fandom, so there's all this pressure when I comment there. It's weird.

I wish I could embrace your dismiss and carry on policy. *sigh* I kind of love the way all the Spike fans are all, "Nuh-uh! Spike's not cool! He's a looooser!" It cracks me up.

Or whatever other pairings that writer deemed The Love Everyone Should Aspire To. Yeah. Really don't. So much word.

I'm a weirdo, too. We're all weirdos. This journal is my weirdo safe-space!

(Hahaha! That's like my favorite phase EVER. Why is Mean Girls the most quotable movie ever?

Mostly I think that Willow's mind-rape was worse because A) Willow and Tara were in a supposedly "healthy" relationship, B) she succeeded, unlike Spike, and C) SHE NEVER REALLY ACKNOWLEDGED HOW AWFUL IT WAS. Spike got his soul. Willow pouted.)

[menomegirl.livejournal.com]

\o/ That thread got very interesting! I didn't read past the newbie who tripped out about Buffy/Giles. Will have to catch up on it this afternoon...but I basically agree with Emmie, just from skimming the replies.

[penny-lane-42.livejournal.com]

Hahaha! The newbie cracked me up. I mean, yeah, Buffy/Giles freaks me out, too, because I hate that sort of unequal distribution of power thing, but it's far, far, far from the most squickly thing I've seen in my...ten years of fandom activity.

The whole thread is kind of trippin'. It's all over the place. The last few comments especially are just insane. I'll be anxious to hear what you have to say.

[bloodypoetry.livejournal.com]

I do have to admit that I identify with him completely. My friends crack up because I'll say, "I am Spike." Buffy's my favorite character (I'm as in love with her as Spike is, though in a totally straight way, of course ;) ), but Spike's the one I always, always understand (except for some of S4).

OMG WORD. Seriously. People think I am hot for Spike (he's very attractive yes) but no. I am him. My brother gets it, and says I am 'Spike without the armor'. I totally identify with him, and also love Buffy because he does. Hell when I dream about BTVS, I am Spike. I thought I was weird and crazy, but yay! Someone else like me!

[green-maia.livejournal.com]

You said what I wanted to say far better than I could have said it!

[penny-lane-42.livejournal.com]

I highly doubt that, but thank you! That makes me smile!

[sarahlovesa.livejournal.com]

A massive discussion on my fav subject and I did not see it until now! Hope it is not too late to join in. The trouble is that there are so many interesting comments that I could reply to.

But let me talk about Spike - something I just do not get a chance to do enough! I enjoyed watching the early, funny, wicked, sarcastic Spike - he was so much fun and the show could sometimes be a bit earnest and angsty - especially the whole Angel/Buffy thing. So a touch of astringency was welcome.

However, I LOVE LOVE LOVE with all the passion of my repressed English heart, the later Spike - in all his complex, tortured, contradictory, redemptive glory. I was trying to pinpoint the moment when I knew that he was my favourite fictional character ever and the love of my TV watching life. Mmmm. not easy. Maybe when he did not betray Dawn (& I think that the severing of that relationship was one of the worst things that Joss did! I so longed for them to make up by the end as S's attitude to Dawn was really what made him seem like he was more human than demon and that he could be redeemed)

Anyway, Spike is so REAL - yes I know, a peroxided vampire with a soul - not often found in the real world. But part of my brain (or my heart, probably,) whispers that somewhere he must exist in some parallel universe, because Joss Whedon wrote a character with such emotional depth and complexity - with such truth in him - that it is hard to think of the director saying 'cut' and then Spike is no more.

Spike is in some ways the most human character - he changes and grows, he screws up and yet he tries to make things right - he TRIES, all the time, and that is what the best humans do, no matter what.

[penny-lane-42.livejournal.com]

especially the whole Angel/Buffy thing. So a touch of astringency was welcome.
Oh my goodness, yes. Angel/Buffy are precisely the kind of over-the-top angsty romance that makes me want to shoot myself in the head.

I think my moment was "Fool for Love." It's my favorite episode of TV. But "Initiative" did take it to another level, definitely!

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<i>especially the whole Angel/Buffy thing. So a touch of astringency was welcome.
</i> Oh my goodness, yes. Angel/Buffy are precisely the kind of over-the-top angsty romance that makes me want to shoot myself in the head.

I think my moment was "Fool for Love." It's my favorite episode of TV. But "Initiative" did take it to another level, definitely!

<i/(& I think that the severing of that relationship was one of the worst things that Joss did! I so longed for them to make up by the end as S's attitude to Dawn was really what made him seem like he was more human than demon and that he could be redeemed</i> I completely agree.

<i>Spike is in some ways the most human character - he changes and grows, he screws up and yet he tries to make things right - he TRIES, all the time, and that is what the best humans do, no matter what.
</i> Yes. Absolutely. :)

Hi! (delurking various places)

[alocalmaximum.blogspot.com (from livejournal.com)]

Hi, I've been delurking in various people's ljs (gabrielleabelle, shadowkat, angearia, 2maggie2). I don't use lj yet, though I might soon. I'm here because in her Angel-the-episode poll thread I mentioned being frustrated in a whedonesque conversation and she mentioned that you were frustrated by the same. So hi!, I'm the WilliamTheB from said thread and I guess you're Lirazel? I hope you don't mind me commenting on your thread without being a friend, I'm not sure what the etiquette is and hope/assume I'm not being creepy?

Anyway you have great comments there, both about W/T and especially about Spike. The "Spike is such a loser!" comment was brilliant. I also found the thread frustrating, because both the "Willow & Tara are perfect, everyone else was so much worse" and the "season six is awful and everyone is out of character, also Spike sucks" comments are both some of my personal pet peeves. The latter frustrates me more, because season six is my personal emotional touchstone—I have some objections to the handling of almost every character’s arc, but at the same time I feel more for almost every character that year than in most of the series, which I quite like. And so it’s hard to navigate between, “Yes, you’re right, X sucks” and “But X doesn’t ruin the season!” I think I kept my cool but wasn't particularly convincing, but that's okay.

The main anti-Spike commenter strikes me as smart and has justification for his views, but I disagree with him so often, and what he says usually gets my blood boiling so much, that I've taken to mostly skipping his comments for my own sanity. He's usually a mixture of, I think, reasonable criticism with (to me) completely unfounded ones, with everything in between. His Spike post was mostly unfounded criticism—as you pointed out, he is not actually cool. The odd thing is that he clearly loves Faith, as he’s gone on for a long time about how awesome she is in other threads, and she is as superficially cool as Spike is, and in some respects takes over the series even more dramatically when she’s on screen, on both shows. There’s a lot of Spike-haters who love Faith, when many of their Faith-criticisms apply to Spike, right down to the ostensibly unforgivable AR—Faith tries to rape Xander, and then steals Buffy’s body and has sex with her boyfriend, which is a major violation of both Buffy and Riley. Oh well.

An example of a mixture of accurate, inaccurate and everything in between is this: in one post he says that Xander summoning Sweet and not caring about people dying was stupid (I agree, though I think it was partly just an awkward attempt to play with musical dues ex machina conventions), says that this proves that Joss doesn’t care about his characters (don’t really agree—summoning the demon ties into Xander’s Anya fears, also explored in the episode, and I think Joss et al. just failed to think through the implications of people dying from it—an error in judgment and not of lack of caring), and that Joss had Xander do it entirely because he wanted to set up the happy ending of Buffy and Spike kissing (completely disagree—Joss isn’t even presenting it as a happy ending, with “where do we go from here” and Buffy saying, “This isn’t real”!). Anyway, hard to argue with, which is why I’m trying...not to.

Re: Hi! (delurking various places)

[penny-lane-42.livejournal.com]

Hello!

I am Lirazel, and I'm a big fan of most of those people whose journals you've been lurking in (Gabs especially is so great at creating community for us BtVS fans), so I hope you enjoy yourself, especially if you do eventually decide to do the lj thing (I personally love it, but I know it can be difficult to navigate and not everyone has the interest).

Anyway, no, not creepy at all, and I'm glad you popped in.

The latter frustrates me more, because season six is my personal emotional touchstone—I have some objections to the handling of almost every character’s arc, but at the same time I feel more for almost every character that year than in most of the series, which I quite like. Okay, I so, so know exactly what you mean. I feel the same way. Buffy is my favorite character (as you might be able to tell if you've looked around my journal), but I didn't really, really start to "get" her until S6. I feel like S6 gave me Buffy, in a way. That sounds strange, I know, but it's true. And with how deeply I feel for Spike and Dawn and Anya and others in that season...it's my favorite, problematic though it might be.

And so it’s hard to navigate between, “Yes, you’re right, X sucks” and “But X doesn’t ruin the season!” I think I kept my cool but wasn't particularly convincing, but that's okay. Again, I know exactly what you mean. This is true of both S6 (my fav) and S7 (the one that gives me want I want for my two favorite characters). They're both problematic in a lot of ways--S7 especially so--but there are things that I just connect to in ways I can't any of the earlier seasons.

The main anti-Spike commenter strikes me as smart and has justification for his views, but I disagree with him so often, and what he says usually gets my blood boiling so much, that I've taken to mostly skipping his comments for my own sanity. He's usually a mixture of, I think, reasonable criticism with (to me) completely unfounded ones, with everything in between.

Oh, yes. He's lucky he caught me on a good day, honestly. I was feeling generous and patient that day. Usually his comments just make me stabby (although there are a few about Dollhouse that I quite agree with). I was actually really impressed with myself for not going off on him.

And again: I totally agree about Faith. It seems to me that this is an inversion of a tendency I see in fandom in general: usually, fans are much more forgiving of a guy who's a jerk than of a woman who's a jerk and will find all kinds of excuses to let the guy off the hook while totally skewering the woman. Here, though, it seems like these people find similar behaviors acceptable in a hot woman that they wouldn't in a man. It makes me wonder.

Perhaps for other people (not Hellmouthguy, clearly) it has something to do with the fact that Faith actually is kill--and radiates coolness, even though she has a rough background--whereas Spike's coolness is 90% of the time a facade? I don't know.

Yeah, the OMWF argument is not one I can understand at all.

There are certain ideas that I see over and over again on whedonesque that drive me crazy: that the later seasons suck, that Spike was cooler when he was bad and then got ruined, that Buffy ends up being a bitch (well, she can be, but in the best way), that anyone who ships Spike/Buffy is a rape apologist (which I find kind of hilariously sad since it's my S/B shipper friends who fight against Rape Culture in any way they can and write great feminist critiques of the show, but whatever), that Dawn is OMG THE MOST ANNOYING PERSON EVER (I'm fond of Dawn), that people who like Spike just think JM is hot, etc. It often feels like I'm banging my head against a brick wall over there.

Sometimes I don't know why I stick around. But there are people I agree with--like you!--and sometimes I actually do get to engage in civil conversation (like that one), so maybe it's worth it in the end?

Anyways, welcome to my journal. Feel free to pop in any time, though I can't guarantee you'll find everything here of interest. I hope to see you making awesome comments on whedonesque more in the future. :)

Oh, and now I'm poking around your blog. Just fyi.