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Thinky thoughts of the Spike-ish kind
This is one of those "I'm having a conversation on whedonesque; tell me what you think about what I'm saying" posts.
This particular conversation starts out about Willow/Tara (and my thoughts line up precisely with Emmie's, big surprise there) and then becomes about S6 and then, finally, becomes about Spike.
And I just wrote a novel.
But I feel like I left something vital out.
Any thoughts?
This particular conversation starts out about Willow/Tara (and my thoughts line up precisely with Emmie's, big surprise there) and then becomes about S6 and then, finally, becomes about Spike.
And I just wrote a novel.
But I feel like I left something vital out.
Any thoughts?
Re: Hi! (delurking various places)
I feel the same way. Buffy is my favorite character (as you might be able to tell if you've looked around my journal), but I didn't really, really start to "get" her until S6. I feel like S6 gave me Buffy, in a way. That sounds strange, I know, but it's true. And with how deeply I feel for Spike and Dawn and Anya and others in that season...it's my favorite, problematic though it might be.
Yes. Buffy-the-cheerleader I liked, Buffy-broken-by-Angel I felt so much for, Buffy-despondent, Buffy doing anything to get out of the world, Buffy running out with the garbage as the truck has just left, failing in all her responsibilities, I *got*. And I got her emotional disconnect in season seven so much too, her "I am the law" superiority/inferiority complex. And Spike gleefully taunting Buffy that she's come back wrong because that's the only way he thinks she could be with him, and Dawn trying so hard to reconnect in "After Life" and she might as well be talking to a wall, Buffy's gone so far, and Anya's turning her head to see D'Hoffryn offering her vengeance again, Giles throwing knives at Buffy in slow-mo as he prepares to leave, Xander mumbling "It wasn't you I was hating," Willow telling Buffy that the only thing that made her special is Tara and now that she's gone there's nothing left...whew.
Re: Hellmouthguy, I personally disagree with him about Dollhouse too--like, in one thread he said he hated even "Man on the Street," and how he had no sympathy for Joel Mynor whatsoever, and while I agree Mynor is a bastard-rapist I also feel for him and think the show is brave for dealing with that. But I mean, yeah, Dollhouse has big problems and I agree that "The Hollow Men" was bad, though bad in a completly bizarre way. I really hope the interviews on the DVD have someone admitting that the episode got completely rewritten the morning of.
And again: I totally agree about Faith....
I think it has to do with the male component of fandom--I don't want to actually say, "They forgive Faith because she's hot," but, uh, maybe I do a bit. And I think some of it is because Faith starts off as a "good guy". And also--some people don't take woman-on-man violence as seriously as man-on-woman violence, because it has fewer real-world triggers. On the plus side, I do think that Faith wins a lot of points for turning herself into jail, which is partly why I think a lot of people who don't forgive Spike, Buffy, Willow etc. do give her a pass.
Yeah, the OMWF argument is not one I can understand at all.
I would be more convinced that Xander summoned Sweet for a happy ending if there were a single character (besides Sweet) who looked happy about it.
There are certain ideas that I see over and over again on whedonesque that drive me crazy...It often feels like I'm banging my head against a brick wall over there.
Yeah, agreed on the frustration. I'm much more forgiving of, "The later seasons suck" than "Anyone who ships S/B is a rape apologist"; there are a few "I don't think anyone could disagree that the show was at its best in season two" though and those drive me batty. And agree about Dawn, whom I admittedly didn't start really appreciating until a rewatch but I do love.
For me personally I also get batty over "Willow was out of character/badly done in the Dark Willow eps" claims, though I understand them. I do wish the writers had been clearer about how much effect the black/white magics actually have on her, but I forgive it because it's just so viscerally obvious to me that it's All Willow, just with a little extra push towards rage and then towards empathy, and it does seem to me to cover all the bases of what Willow was headed toward. I don't like the addiction material but do like her story overall in the season. (Gabrielleabelle's big Dark Willow meta was a good read and captures similar conflicted but mostly positive thoughts.)
Oh, and now I'm poking around your blog. Just fyi.
Oh please do. And I hope to see you around. :)
Re: Hi! (delurking various places)
I've never experienced TWOP (which I understand to be kind of rough at times), but I'm certain whedonesque would shine in comparison. My problem with whedonesque is more often when I criticize something from a gender or racial perspective, people get nasty. That sours some of the experience for me because, again, most of the people I interact with on lj would either agree with me or be respectful in disagreement. It's just different.
And oh yes! I love S7!Buffy as well!
I have to admit that I've never really cared much either way about either Xander or Willow--though I like Xander a lot in S7, strangely enough; I think in the earlier seasons he reminded me too much of a Nice Guy (TM) and that stuck with me, so it took him completely outgrowing that for me to like him--so I still don't much care about their stories in S6 personally, but I can totally understand why they're so compelling to others. I mean, leaving my disinterest in Willow totally aside, she's got a well-crafted arc. Just like I don't care a thing about Wes over on AtS, I can still admire the character development.
Anyway! All that to say that though I still don't care much about them in S6, I think their arcs are well crafted, and everyone else I connect with profoundly.
I definitely don't agree with him about everything on DH; I find some stories/characters/episodes really, really compelling. I just think it's one of the most uneven shows I've ever seen, ricocheting back and forth between awesome and boring/bad, sometimes within the same episode or scene. So a few of the things Hellmouthguy has said made me go, "Yeah, I agree."
I think the thing about Joel Mynor is, we're supposed to think what he does is repulsive (and I hope others do) but at the same time recognize the human impulse that drives him to do it. It's very similar to S6, actually: just taking Giles, I think he does the absolutely wrong thing in leaving Buffy when she needs him most, but it's a very human thing he did. I personally think it's so, so important to recognize that every human being is capable of great acts of sacrifice and love and courage and hope, but they're also equally capable of profound evil. It's all about the choices we make. I'm a big believer in free will.
I do think part of the Faith thing is the hot thing (just like there are Spike fans who woobiefy him and blame everything on Buffy, which is just ridiculous).
ome people don't take woman-on-man violence as seriously as man-on-woman violence, because it has fewer real-world triggers. Absolutely. And that's another connection: if Spike had done to Buffy what Willow did to Tara? If Xander had done it to Anya? I think people would be a whole lot less likely to forgive. (Of course, Angel did do something similar to Buffy--and I've really seen that as the nail in the coffin of the relationship between those two, myself--so I could be wrong.)
I do think that Faith wins a lot of points for turning herself into jail Yeah. I'm never gonna connect to Faith, as she's pretty much my polar opposite in every way, but I like her a whole lot better on AtS and in BtVS S7 than I ever did before, and I think the softening has to do with her turning herself in.
there are a few "I don't think anyone could disagree that the show was at its best in season two" though and those drive me batty. OH YES. I see that often.
I loved Gabs' Willow meta. It was very well done indeed, and I was enthralled by it, which is saying something for someone who could care less about Willow!
Oh please do. And I hope to see you around. :) Well, I already saw that you've reviewed a movie starring Myrna Loy and William Powell (though I haven't read the review yet), so I think there might be something for me over there. I'm the world's biggest Thin Man fan. :)
Re: Hi! (delurking various places)
(Anonymous) 2010-03-28 05:51 am (UTC)(link)I think people have a tough time accepting the possibility that there are gender/racial problems with things they like. I know I used to, because I used to idealize my favourite creators/whatever more than I do now, but I've gotten better about it. I think gabrielleabelle (again! so many shoutouts!) had a great post saying basically, it's okay to like things that aren't great from a racial/gender perspective! REALLY! No one is judging you, or saying that the work isn't otherwise great!"
Re: Xander and Willow, that's entirely fair. I mean, I care about pretty much all the major characters (even Riley!), but my investment waxes and wanes depending on the year, the situation etc. (Gunn in S5? Interested. Gunn in S2-S4? Sort of?) I think it's just great that the show has so many characters who all have strong arcs, much as well all like to complain sometimes, so there's lots of people to choose from. And yes, I love S7 Xander too--yeah, yeah, he didn't get much story, and "Storyteller" and a few other bits, while lovely, didn't resolve X/A as well as I would have liked, but the guy really felt like he'd arrived, was mostly grown up.
Oh and Xander definitely was a Nice Guy (TM). I've never thought of it that way before but I really like that statement--and then his arc is kind of going from Nice Guy (TM) to actually a nice guy. And since Nice Guy-ism isn't really one of my triggers (probably because of my male privilege) it doesn't interfere with my enjoyment of the character at all.
I have an epiphany: maybe Paul Ballard's arc was meant to resemble Xander's! Because Paul, like Xander, also sort of goes from Nice Guy (heavily satirized, actually not as caring as he thinks he is, etc.) to nice guy (mostly presented as perfect), except with Ballard there was no development (well, not much)--just, they stopped doing the creepy undercurrent, or at least if they kept doing it I don't really see it. Which also adds to: yes, the show was the mixture of awesome and bad and it was never clear which was about to come next.
Agreed re: Giles and Buffy. I also blame him a lot for leaving Willow at this point in time, though for completely different reasons. He has some real responsibility for her ramping up in power--he's been watching her steal dark books from him for years, and he only gave mild criticism while also encouraging her to do magic whenever useful, and it's clear to him that she's a danger to herself and her friends, not to mention "civilians," and doesn't understand this at all. But I mean--he really does convince himself that Buffy will be better off without him, and it was so painful to see her die again and then leave his life behind and start it again in England and then be "called back"...yeah, I get it.
I do think that people don't think of W/T as as bad because of the supernatural element, as well as the gendered elment--I mean, yes, it's clearly a form of in-relationship date rape, but it's not obvious, even though Tara makes the point of comparing it to Glory. So there's no 100%-accurate comparison that allows you to say definitively how bad it is. And as you say Angel does much the same thing, and what he does in "Home" is on a much, much bigger scale. But he doesn't have sex with anyone because of it, I guess.
One thing about the Faith-goes-to-prison arc is that the argument given in season four of Angel, that she really does have to get back to fighting, helps explain why other characters shouldn't turn themselves into prison if their crimes and abilities are supernatural. Hence Willow, Andrew, Gunn & Fred (for the professor) not going to jail.
Stormwreath has some great writing on Willow, but I'm not sure how good it would be for non-Willow fans? Anyway yeah, Gabs' was pretty great.
Anyway yes--that movie ("Manhattan Melodrama") is charming if kind of stupid. I love The Thin Man too; I have the full collection but have only watched the first three or so...one of these days I'll get around to the rest, I swear.
Re: Hi! (delurking various places)