Thinky thoughts of the Spike-ish kind

[lirazel]

This is one of those "I'm having a conversation on whedonesque; tell me what you think about what I'm saying" posts.

This particular conversation starts out about Willow/Tara (and my thoughts line up precisely with Emmie's, big surprise there) and then becomes about S6 and then, finally, becomes about Spike.

And I just wrote a novel.

But I feel like I left something vital out.

Any thoughts?

Comments

[elisi]

Started skimming the comments and came across this:

I think Willow post-reeducation with the coven would have been able to find permanent happiness with Tara had the ash-blonde been restored to her.
'The ash-blonde'??? Next does someone mention Buffy's orbs?

Anyway, I got to your comment, and (although I don't agree with everything) this is it, exactly:

that's why "Chosen" is so important: because finally, finally he's found something that's real and his. After searching for it since he was alive. He thought it was what Drusilla offered him in the stable in 1880, but that wasn't it. "Chosen" was it.

(I actually explored this in a fic once, so I've given it a lot of thought.)

[http://users.livejournal.com/_jems_/]

I have nothing to say except that I admire your ability to keep your cool. I feel like that guy must have just completely misunderstood the whole show if he saw Spike like that. But you seem to think he had some interesting things to say, so all I can then think is that his resentment of the character and his development while all the rest were left behind was so big that he's just completely blind when it comes to Spike. Because no matter how much you hate the guy, no one can argue that Spike isn't a complete loser. (Haha, that may be one of my favorite sentences I've ever written.)

[penny-lane-42.livejournal.com]

'The ash-blonde'??? Next does someone mention Buffy's orbs?
Oh my goodness. I read right over that, and THANK GOD. That's one of my personal fic pet peeves. Wow.

The more I think about Spike's ending in "Chosen," the more absolutely perfect I think it is. I'll have to check your fic out!

Just out of curiosity, what do you disagree with in particular? People have such very, very different views about Spike that I'm always interested in reading other people's.

[penny-lane-42.livejournal.com]

Thank you! I don't always keep my cool over there (seriously, I need a tag for "this is a whedonesque post, and I'm mad" because it happens often), but I'm in a good mood today, so he didn't tick me off immediately.

As for this guy in particular, he has some interesting thoughts on Dollhouse that I've appreciated, but our views of BtVS couldn't possibly be more different.

Because no matter how much you hate the guy, no one can argue that Spike isn't a complete loser. It's one of my favorite sentences ever, too!

[rebcake.livejournal.com]

Nope. You've pretty much summed up the arc beautifully. James Marsters says that the writers did screw up the initial point of the show by making Spike the ultimate outsider on a show that celebrated outsiders, but I personally think it made it all more interesting when they had to face that their heroes had real, ugly failings, and not just cute, quirky ones.

The only place where I disagree with you is that I liked comic relief S4 Spike just as much as the other iterations.

Carry on.

[angearia.livejournal.com]

Oh god yes. I found it very disturbing that Willow/Tara was being whitewashed and set up as the perfect relationship. No no no. I mean, yes, they're quite adorable and sweet at times (and often too sweet in the manner that makes me gag and eye-roll), but they also got very messed up. And Tara was far too often subordinate to Willow until Willow abused her too much and Tara had to get out. It reminds me of the trope of the abusive, controlling husband and the wife who finally grew enough backbone to remove herself from the unhealthy situation. The fact that she goes back because she misses the one who abused her is actually pretty sad when the abuser never really owned up to the issues nor change until after the 'wife' dies and the 'husband' learns a horrible lesson from trying to end the world after losing his obsession that he needed to control in order to be happy. Even the fact that Willow wants to keep Tara to herself in the beginning is a bit disturbing when looked at in this light.

*goes to read your comment*

[next_to_normal]

Sounds pretty good to me. :) *gives Eowyn stamp of approval*

[penny-lane-42.livejournal.com]

I like S4 comic relief Spike...but I don't particularly like him as Spike. Does that make sense? Like he's funny and everything, and I always enjoy it when he's onscreen, but when I think of the unfolding arc of his character, a lot of what he does in S4 just doesn't fit as well as the other season's stuff.

but I personally think it made it all more interesting when they had to face that their heroes had real, ugly failings, and not just cute, quirky ones.


Exactly. Exactly the reason that I love S6.

[penny-lane-42.livejournal.com]

Yay!

I have discovered that we agree about a lot of things re: BtVS. Which always makes me happy. I often see your comments and think, "Yes, exactly." Which is a good feeling.

[next_to_normal]

Yeah, I was really glad to see your comment, because as soon as I read the description of the essay, I went, "Whaat?" I love Willow/Tara, but perfect or even "not failed" they are not.

Although, now that I'm thinking about it, I wonder what should be considered the most "ideal" relationship on Buffy. There's pretty slim pickings there...

[next_to_normal]

Hee! That makes me happy, too. Also, we agree a lot re: VM, too, which just makes you awesome. :)

[angearia.livejournal.com]

Yeah, after reading the essay more closely, it seems the writer completely buys into the party line that it's Willow's magic addiction at fault. When really Willow's abuse of magic is more about showing how she's using her power to abuse the rights of others. It'd be like Buffy using her power as Dawn's guardian to keep her from contacting her friends (okay, not the best metaphor but it's all I can think of at the moment...).

So the essay goes on to say that once Willow gets her magic under control, she and Tara can be tra la la!happy. Which is just... wrong.

[penny-lane-42.livejournal.com]

(and often too sweet in the manner that makes me gag and eye-roll), Definitely. Willow's baby voice makes me stabby. But I can understand the appeal to other people.

I agree with everything you have to say. I actually think it's really interesting that all this takes place in a context outside the heteronormative male-female relationship...but it seems that because it does, people miss the fact that is, in fact, enacting an abusive relationship. Which makes it interesting, but also lets others hand-wave because Willow and Tara are cute.

[penny-lane-42.livejournal.com]

Slim pickings indeed. I'd probably say Willow and Oz, but even that didn't end well. Maybe Giles/Jenny? It didn't have time to self-destruct.

So let's get around it by saying: Wash and Zoe! ;)

[elisi]

Oh my goodness. I read right over that, and THANK GOD. That's one of my personal fic pet peeves. Wow.
I couldn't believe my eyes. I mean, who uses that expression 'in public'?

The more I think about Spike's ending in "Chosen," the more absolutely perfect I think it is. I'll have to check your fic out!
I think you'll like it - I wrote it for the second summer_of_spike (omg so long ago now...), and I'm still very happy with it. (It's only around 8000 words btw. Somehow I managed to write short chapters.)

Just out of curiosity, what do you disagree with in particular? People have such very, very different views about Spike that I'm always interested in reading other people's.
It's not disagreement as such... It's just that I only see 'Spike the Loser' as one aspect of the character, and not really the most important one [for me]. But I can't fault that view, because he is so wonderfully multifaceted that everyone can take what they want. (Also I skipped the comment you replied to [life's too short, and I've been around long enough to know how the story goes], so it's quite probable that yours was specifically tailored response, and thus I am talking out of my hat. *g*)

[penny-lane-42.livejournal.com]

Back atcha!

For some VMars love, check out: this.

[angearia.livejournal.com]

Oh my god, Willow's baby voice totally makes me stabby! AGREE.

I think it's a bit sad that folks sell a fictional relationship short like that. If it's in the Whedonverse, it ain't perfect (unless it's Zoe and Wash, which probably would have eventually gotten messed up if Firefly hadn't be cancelled and... uh, Serenity hadn't done that thing which makes me cry). But in the Buffyverse, it's pretty much a given that if the progression of the relationship is a big part of the story, then it will inevitably get effed up because they're all "doomed".

I wonder if the writers were consciously aware of the abusive/enabler dynamic they'd created for Willow/Tara...

Not that it matters because the AUTHOR IS DEAD. :P

[penny-lane-42.livejournal.com]

I mean, who uses that expression 'in public'?
HAHAHA! YES.

Oh, okay! That makes sense, and I actually agree (I was reading back through it thinking, "What would another Spike-fan disagree with?" and coming up short). This was definitely written in the context of that person's comment which was that Spike took over the show, and that undermined the show, because the show was about outsiders, and Spike was too cool. So my response was definitely just about that loser aspect (which is very important), and it left out Spike-the-Romantic, Spike-the-Truth-Speaker, Spike-the-Unreliable-Narrator, Spike-the-Definition-of-Bakhtinian-Grotesque, Spike-the-Gender-Bender, Spike-the-Hero, etc.

[elisi]

I wonder what should be considered the most "ideal" relationship on Buffy. There's pretty slim pickings there...
Buffy/Immortal obviously! ;)

[penny-lane-42.livejournal.com]

I really don't think they were. Just like I don't think they were aware of what they were doing with Buffy and Spike and the whole gender role inversion.

BUT THE AUTHOR IS DEAD!

This should be my motto. Which would be ironic, considering that I want to be the author.

[hkath.livejournal.com]

Wow, it's nice to see people discussing things in a civilized manner like that. It's so unusual, from my experience. Heh. I think you hit the nail right on the head and were consistent in your explanation. I was kind of wowed by that guy's take on the show and Spike's character, because they were completely opposite to mine. But then again, I am also very much Spike. Embarrassingly so.

[angearia.livejournal.com]

And now you see, that's the secret. Not the draft you didn't throw out or the thematic symbolism you didn't land. Every Writer... has a death wish.

Even you.

[penny-lane-42.livejournal.com]

I'm really glad that I saw this on a day when I'm in a good mood. Because I usually end up testy on whedonesque (especially when it comes to feminism issues. I always expect people there to be more enlightened than they are, and I end up getting rage-y). So yeah, it's nice to agree civilly.

I was kind of wowed by that guy's take on the show and Spike's character, because they were completely opposite to mine. I KNOW! I think that a lot of people who aren't fans of his character are just bitter. And I usually hate the "They're just jealous!" argument, but

But then again, I am also very much Spike. Embarrassingly so.
This makes me feel better about myself. I really do identify with him to an unhealthy degree, even though I lack some of the rebelliousness he manifests (though if I was a vampire with no moral compass, that wouldn't be the case). I often think, "If Spike was a modern Southern 23-year-old woman instead of a British Victorian-gentleman-turned-vampire, he would be just like me."

[penny-lane-42.livejournal.com]

And that, right there? Is why I keep you around. True story.

[angearia.livejournal.com]

Also, 'cause I'm so pretty. It had to be said.