Two of my favorite things: feminism and Whedon shows

[lirazel]

Via a recent link on whedonesque, I stumbled across a series at meloukhia.net about feminism and Joss Whedon's shows. The one linked to on whedonesque is on Dollhouse, and is a bit disappointing--it opens arguments without really exploring them, to be honest. But some of the older articles are worth checking out.

Like this one on sex and punishment on Joss's shows--not anything that hasn't been said before, but still, nice to see someone examining it again.

But I really, really like this two part exploration of how Angel is really pretty antifeminist. It especially delves into Cordelia's character and hints at how it was destroyed (I still want to yell "WTF, JOSS?" about that one), and it had one especially insightful quote I wanted to share.

We see a recurring theme with Cordelia: she is not allowed control of her body, because her body “needs” to be used by others. Yes. I had never, ever noticed this before (probably mostly because I got into Angel before I really learned how to read texts from a feminist perspective), but it is so, so true. From demon pregnancies to visions forced on her against her will to having her body stolen from her to be the vessel of Jasmine, poor Cordy is never allowed to be Cordy for very long before her body is stolen from her again. Since she's far and away my favorite character on that show (with Gunn in a close second), and since I love her so hardcore on Buffy, where she's always HBIC, this still makes me bitter.

And then Fred goes through the same thing! It's troubling, and not something I'd thought about on a conscious level, even if I would have told you that Angel isn't exactly a feminist show.

On the other hand, the second part includes some truly great moments for women on Angel and also has some love for Lilah, who I think is just an incredibly fabulous character in every way.

I don't agree with all her points in all the articles (obviously), but still, there's some interesting stuff going on all of them. I really appreciate that she's examining all this from the point of view of a fan who still sees problematic aspects of shows she loves (just like me!).

ALSO: Go vote for Buffy here! Because River is beating her, and we can't have that! As much as I love River, Buffy is my hero.

[ETA] While we're on the topic of Joss-criticism, I thought I'd throw out this link, too, since it's someone who is far more knowledgeable than I am calling him out about something else that's really bothered me about his shows.

Comments

[angearia.livejournal.com]

And this is partially why I don't like Angel as much. Women get used and abused. Chewed up and spit out. It's depressing as hell. It happens to the men, too, but it definitely seems to target the women more.

[penny-lane-42.livejournal.com]

I find the show nearly infuriating because it's so uneven. You have great, great aspects--Cordy when she's written right, some of the really fascinating Darla stuff in S2, "Not Fade Away," Lilah, Gunn, Spike-and-Angel-snarking, "Are You Now Or Have You Ever Been?", Lorne, etc.--and then just some of the worst stuff Joss has ever produced. I sometimes get whiplash watching it.

But yes. Yes, yes, yes about the way women are so disposable. It's troubling. And actually gets more so--not less--the more I think/read about it.

[gabrielleabelle.livejournal.com]

Yeah. That's my main beef with Angel. They also set up Angel (the character) to be the Big Hero Who Protects the Women. And Fred...gah! She always complains that she's not a "damsel in distress" but yes. Yes she completely is. All the time.

And her death...I stopped watching for a while after that. It was just another instance of a woman's body being made into something alien and vessel-like for a demon. It was bad enough when they did it to Cordy.

I have severe feminist issues with AtS.

[gabrielleabelle.livejournal.com]

Oh yeah! And don't forget Darla who is redeemed through motherhood! Cause that's the way to tame a woman. *nods*

[penny-lane-42.livejournal.com]

I hadn't even considered that one. Ugh.

[eldritchowl.livejournal.com]

I DIDN'T EVEN THINK OF THAT.


My soul just died a little, I think.

[penny-lane-42.livejournal.com]

Agreed on everything. Especially with Fred.

I hate so much that the show fails on that level, because I want to like it so much. Cordy's there! They actually explore the idea of demons not being entirely evil! It's got that cool noir-ish thing going on! J. August Richards is pretty!

But when it fails, it fails so hard, and it keeps me from loving it like I do BtVS.

[angearia.livejournal.com]

I find myself not wanting to look for metaphors in ANGEL and just watching it for entertainment. Because looking closer diminishes the love.

The opposite is true with Buffy. The closer I look, the more I love it. Just like with her character. The closer I look at Buffy, the more I love her.

[that-september.livejournal.com]

Ahh, the last link. :\

I started watching Firefly with my Chinese-American/ABC friend whose family is fluent in Mandarin, and that was always one of her main comments: THEY'RE NOT SPEAKING CHINESE! Apparently, the only one close enough to having the right accent was Inara.

I also noticed the distinct lack of Asians in the cast, though for some reason, I think I always assumed the Tams were half Asian. The author of that article was making several really good points, but it always bothers me when I don't necessarily notice stuff like that for myself outright. I love Firefly so much that I wonder if sometimes I just let myself overlook details like that?

ETA: About the 'not-speaking Chinese' thing...it occurs to me that while it may have SOUNDED like gibberish, they did attempt to learn how, and speaking as a Westerner who has tried to learn Chinese, it really is exceedingly difficult. The accent has to be absolutely precise, and when they're trying to throw phrases into everyday conversation like that, I'd imagine it'd be pretty hard to get it perfect. It's not at all an excuse for the lack of East Asians in the cast, but it's something.

[penny-lane-42.livejournal.com]

Yeah. It's been a hard experience for me getting to the point where I can admit the shows that I love so much (and that, honestly, form part of my identity) can be deeply flawed.

That's really fascinating that you've been watching it with your friend and hearing her thoughts. And I'm not one to complain overly much about them messing up the accent if they were genuinely trying.

But I do find the lack of East Asians disturbing, though, like you, I didn't really notice it when I was watching on my own. Someone had to point it out for me. But once they did, it becomes overwhelming. It's even more hurtful because of the tons of Asian actors out there who would have loved to have been cast in such a role. Plus, there's the fact that Joss seems obsessed with the east in an Orientalizing sort of way--exoticizing it without understanding it--and that he seems to deeply associate it with women and sex (Inara and Companions, Sierra and being constantly sexually victimized, etc.).

I think you should check out this vid. It's the first thing that really raised my awareness of this issue. Plus, it's one of the few vids that really prompted a reaction in me other than "Oooh! Pretty! Great music!"

[fenchurche.livejournal.com]

I was a bit disappointed by not seeing more Asian characters on the show... but I thought that several of the main cast, at least, looked like they could be of mixed heritage (the Tams, as you said... but also Inara and Zoe), which it seems like would be more common than finding people strictly of one race or another, that far into a future where mankind has been transplanted to another system.

I always thought it was rather brave, or perhaps foolhardy, of Joss to pick Chinese as one of the two major languages... considering exactly how hard it is to get right!

[queenofdenile.livejournal.com]

I think the writer makes an interesting point when she points to "She" as one of the only times AtS has a truly feminist message. It's really too bad that episode SUCKS and is only any good at all because of Angel's dancing at the beginning.

[penny-lane-42.livejournal.com]

So. TRUE!

But now I am laughing thinking about Angel dancing, which makes me happy.

[anythingbutgrey.livejournal.com]

omg those essays make me question my life. so good. i wish my feminism brain was better at analyzing these things. omg.

[penny-lane-42.livejournal.com]

YES. Exactly.

[serendipily.livejournal.com]

I guess with feministic values it dies overitme. Just a little. I mean you can only beat the crap out of feminist points so many times.
..
Hmm.

I would have loved the whole idea of Angel getting the visoins instead of Cordy. Women empowermant and showing she's stronger than him in some ways just makes me happy. Hee.

Fred dies because something overtook her body that she couldn't fight off. Cordy was th esame. I hated that aspect of the show that showed women in a weak sort of position. But hey, it's Angel. Buffy won't be busting through the double doors anytime soon.
(Well ...)


ALSO: Go vote for Buffy here! Because River is beating her, and we can't have that! As much as I love River, Buffy is my hero
Oh River ... my crazy River ...

[penny-lane-42.livejournal.com]

Maybe you're right. *muses*

YES! Cordy kicks ass! (When they let her.)

NO! BUFFY'S BETTER!

[shamoogity.livejournal.com]

Yeah, Angel did not have a great track record when it came to in-the-credits female characters. Cordy was basically an empty vessel, and Fred was the object everyone wanted to fight over/rescue/mourn. I will love Lilah forever though. There were a lot of interesting female characters who weren't in the credits. I also enjoyed Gwen, Kate, Darla, and Faith.

[penny-lane-42.livejournal.com]

Yup. That's the thing that makes me so bitter about the show--Cordy was fabulous and strong and snarky and had so much potential, and then they just gutted her. It still breaks my heart.

But you're right about the other women. I was never a big fan of Kate myself, but I can see that she's fascinating to others. And I have so much love for Lilah, Gwen, Darla, and Faith.

[eldritchowl.livejournal.com]

(Oh, meta. I am the biggest floozy for meta.)

I really love ATS for a lot of things, but my feminist-googles (they're more like glasses, really. I feel nekkid and blind without them) there is a lot of fail to be had. The links + comments to this are a little depressing to my soul. Buffy is as close to my heart as media get and ATS sort of hangs out in the corner and yeah, we talk a lot but sometimes argue and I feel like kneeing him in the groin. And then he goes back to his corner.

(Cordy! My poor Cordy. Ugh, come hang out with me and we can be snarky HBICs and there will be no demonic pregnancies (leave that to Bella and Eddiekins, yo).)

The sheer superficiality of the "Oriental" cultural infusion in Firefly is always disappointing to me. There's a littleeee part of me that hopes Joss would have maybe progressed a bit if the show had been given room to grow.

Thank you for the linkage, consider them bookmarked.

[penny-lane-42.livejournal.com]

I loooove meta. If you're a big fan of it, you should check out elisi. She writes brilliant, brilliant stuff--her essay on metaphors in S6 of BtVS is especially brilliant. There's a link to her complete meta in her sidebar.

In other news: SIMON. SIMON GOING MADE IN "JAYNESTOWN." SO MUCH LOVE.

But back to the meta.

ATS sort of hangs out in the corner and yeah, we talk a lot but sometimes argue and I feel like kneeing him in the groin. And then he goes back to his corner. Haha! Yes! You're just like Buffy with the groin-kicking!

(Cordy! My poor Cordy. Ugh, come hang out with me and we can be snarky HBICs and there will be no demonic pregnancies (leave that to Bella and Eddiekins, yo).) YES. Just...yes.

I certainly hope he would have, too, but honestly, considering his other racial issues...I kind of doubt it.

You're welcome! Always happy to help people with their meta-fix!

[kerry-220.livejournal.com]

...and then there's me.

The links are fabulous. Thanks for them.

However there is a couple of things that I find a little troubling - not that I don't on the whole agree....but for the sake of debate (doncha love those qualifiers)

Okay, Cordelia is oftentimes a 'vessel' and I've no arguments on the questionable nature of 'Expecting' and 'She'. But it can't be ignored that the visions came from Doyle - a man - and in the 'Birthday' sent Angel crazy. Both factors tend to suggest Cordelia wasn't being exploited because of her sex. I also can't ignore that the subtext of the first two/three seasons was Cordelia's recognition that she was more than a pretty exploitable face, but in fact a warrior. Okay, this is a 'duh!', from the feminist perspective, but nevertheless relevant. Finally, I always keep in mind the whole 'Jasmine' storyline is a cobbled together mess to compensate for Charisma Carpenter's pregnancy. Yes, the 'behind the scenes' rumours are deeply disturbing, but a little irrelvent if the complaint is Cordy's body is being used again.

Moving on to Fred, okay the 'handsome man' saved her. But she really needs some credit for surviving five years in an alien environment (no examples of a man doing that) and to all intents and purposes saving Angel's life as well. As for her body being 'used' for Illyria - I can't be alone in being dazzled by Amy Acker's extraordinary performance. Illyria is the shiz!

Regarding Darla, hmmmm. I always thought they were more involved in the effect of a soul on a vampire. If she managed that through her child, so be it. I'm really hard pressed to find a problem with that.

The thing is I really believe the most used and abused character on AtS was Wesley.

Maybe I'm too complacent and need a good hard talking to.

[penny-lane-42.livejournal.com]

ut it can't be ignored that the visions came from Doyle - a man - and in the 'Birthday' sent Angel crazy. Both factors tend to suggest Cordelia wasn't being exploited because of her sex. I kind of disagree. I know that this isn't what you're saying at all, but that reminds me of the "because men also get raped, you can't talk about rape as a women's issue!" Because the visions alone wouldn't be a problem. It's because they're in a show in which Cordy's body is consistently seen as not-her-own (and Fred's, too) that it becomes troubling. If this was the only instance of it, I would have zero problem with it. It's only as it's part of a larger problem that it becomes...problematic.

Honestly, I don't know much about the behind-the-scenes stuff (though I'm a total sucker for that sort of thing), so I can't speak to that, but what I will say is that I find the second pregnancy storyline (Cordy had already had a demon pregnancy) to be very, very badly done indeed. I can think of six or seven ways in which they could have integrated her pregnancy so that they wouldn't make her a victim. If I can think of those things, surely the writers should have been able to.

The thing about Fred is, we don't see any of that. All of that (pretty much) happens to her before she becomes part of the show. Then, once she is part of the show, she becomes the damsel who always needs saving. And I adore Illyria and Amy Acker's performance, but again, I believe it becomes problematic because of the context of the show. All this stuff piled on top of each other is what becomes the fail. If anyone one or two of these things were happening, it would be totally awesome!

Same thing with the Darla--if there weren't this consistent victimization of women on the show, I think that plotline would be completlely touching. As it is, it just makes me sort of groan (now that Gabs pointed it out).

The thing is I really believe the most used and abused character on AtS was Wesley. This may be true, but he's never abused because of his gender. And abusing men doesn't have nearly the same connotations that abusing women does. It makes a difference within the larger context of both the show...and the world.

I don't think you're necessarily too complacent. I just don't happen to agree! ;) I can't judge these plotlines/characterizations one by one on their own, which is what I think you can do. I look at them and see a big, jumbly mess. Apparently, you look at them and see each one entire. And that's cool! We'll just agree to disagree!

[ladysophiekitty.livejournal.com]

I probably shouldn't be posting here first thing in the morning, especially after not sleeping well for the past week, but whatever.

As you said, she made some good and interesting points, but there were a few I disagreed with.

First of all, the whole Angel-redeeming-Faith thing. I happen to love Faith, and I think that in some situations you sort of have to look past the whole "I'm a man" "I'm a woman" thing. Angel didn't redeem Faith because he was a man, he redeemed Faith because in a lot of ways, they're in the same boat. They both had a dark past, done things they regret, and both are trying to make up for it. I think that Buffy (hard as she tried) didn't go around with the Faith thing the right way, and I think that because she's not in the same situation it makes it harder for her. It's just like, if I had an abusive parent and a boy I know used to have an abusive parent and he helped me out, I wouldn't see it so much as being helped by a man as I would being helped by someone who's been where I've been and can do something about it.

And of course you know I'm going to disagree with season 5 being one of the best. Seasons four and five=vomit for me, pretty much. Minus some good episodes.

This point is harder to phrase as it's going to make me sound like an anti-feminist *cringe* but I thought that Angel was kind of in his right to get mad at Buffy though maybe not as much as he did. Yes, she was only trying to help, but she was getting in the way and being kind of...bitchy about it. But then, I greatly disliked all of the Buffy/Angel crossovers which involved Buffy or Angel.

I still like the show Angel, though. It's one of my favorites.

[penny-lane-42.livejournal.com]

First off, awesome icon! I love it!

I mentioned this a bit upthread just now, but I don't have problems with most of these plotlines/characterizations on their own. It's when they're all piled up on one another within the context of the show that they become problematic for me.

The Angel-Faith thing is such a one. It's actually the one on her list that I find least problematic, and the fact that I even consider it sigh-worthy (instead of rant-worthy) is because of the reasons you list.

I love S5. But that's because there is nothing in the whole wide world I love more than to watch Spike and Angel snarking at each other. Also: Gunn actually has a storyline! *loves Gunn so hard*

but I thought that Angel was kind of in his right to get mad at Buffy though maybe not as much as he did. Yes, she was only trying to help, but she was getting in the way and being kind of...bitchy about it. But then, I greatly disliked all of the Buffy/Angel crossovers which involved Buffy or Angel. I'm not one to throw around the words "bad feminist," since some of my beliefs are definitely of the type that would make others do the same to me. So! No accusation here!

But the fact is that the writers wrote Buffy as bitchy. On her own show? She can be hardnosed, but she isn't bitchy. So that characterization bothers me. Plus, I don't blame her for being mad at Faith: the girl just stole her body, slept with her boyfriend, tried to get Buffy arrested and shipped off to the Watchers, and then ran off. I hate Buffy's characterization whenever she's on AtS, but I can understand why she might be a bit bitchy.

But then, I greatly disliked all of the Buffy/Angel crossovers which involved Buffy or Angel. I'm in total agreement with you there.

I don't think you should love the show! If we had to throw out all shows from contention because of gender or race or class issues, there would literally be nothing left to watch. I'm not as big of an AtS fan because I find it so uneven...plus my two favorite characters (Cordy and Gunn) either have their personalities completely ruined (which I think starts happening to Cordy the season before the whole Jasmine thing) or get routinely shuffled to the side. It makes me sad.

But love away!