Two of my favorite things: feminism and Whedon shows

[lirazel]

Via a recent link on whedonesque, I stumbled across a series at meloukhia.net about feminism and Joss Whedon's shows. The one linked to on whedonesque is on Dollhouse, and is a bit disappointing--it opens arguments without really exploring them, to be honest. But some of the older articles are worth checking out.

Like this one on sex and punishment on Joss's shows--not anything that hasn't been said before, but still, nice to see someone examining it again.

But I really, really like this two part exploration of how Angel is really pretty antifeminist. It especially delves into Cordelia's character and hints at how it was destroyed (I still want to yell "WTF, JOSS?" about that one), and it had one especially insightful quote I wanted to share.

We see a recurring theme with Cordelia: she is not allowed control of her body, because her body “needs” to be used by others. Yes. I had never, ever noticed this before (probably mostly because I got into Angel before I really learned how to read texts from a feminist perspective), but it is so, so true. From demon pregnancies to visions forced on her against her will to having her body stolen from her to be the vessel of Jasmine, poor Cordy is never allowed to be Cordy for very long before her body is stolen from her again. Since she's far and away my favorite character on that show (with Gunn in a close second), and since I love her so hardcore on Buffy, where she's always HBIC, this still makes me bitter.

And then Fred goes through the same thing! It's troubling, and not something I'd thought about on a conscious level, even if I would have told you that Angel isn't exactly a feminist show.

On the other hand, the second part includes some truly great moments for women on Angel and also has some love for Lilah, who I think is just an incredibly fabulous character in every way.

I don't agree with all her points in all the articles (obviously), but still, there's some interesting stuff going on all of them. I really appreciate that she's examining all this from the point of view of a fan who still sees problematic aspects of shows she loves (just like me!).

ALSO: Go vote for Buffy here! Because River is beating her, and we can't have that! As much as I love River, Buffy is my hero.

[ETA] While we're on the topic of Joss-criticism, I thought I'd throw out this link, too, since it's someone who is far more knowledgeable than I am calling him out about something else that's really bothered me about his shows.

Comments

[angearia.livejournal.com]

And this is partially why I don't like Angel as much. Women get used and abused. Chewed up and spit out. It's depressing as hell. It happens to the men, too, but it definitely seems to target the women more.

[penny-lane-42.livejournal.com]

I find the show nearly infuriating because it's so uneven. You have great, great aspects--Cordy when she's written right, some of the really fascinating Darla stuff in S2, "Not Fade Away," Lilah, Gunn, Spike-and-Angel-snarking, "Are You Now Or Have You Ever Been?", Lorne, etc.--and then just some of the worst stuff Joss has ever produced. I sometimes get whiplash watching it.

But yes. Yes, yes, yes about the way women are so disposable. It's troubling. And actually gets more so--not less--the more I think/read about it.

[gabrielleabelle.livejournal.com]

Yeah. That's my main beef with Angel. They also set up Angel (the character) to be the Big Hero Who Protects the Women. And Fred...gah! She always complains that she's not a "damsel in distress" but yes. Yes she completely is. All the time.

And her death...I stopped watching for a while after that. It was just another instance of a woman's body being made into something alien and vessel-like for a demon. It was bad enough when they did it to Cordy.

I have severe feminist issues with AtS.

[gabrielleabelle.livejournal.com]

Oh yeah! And don't forget Darla who is redeemed through motherhood! Cause that's the way to tame a woman. *nods*

[penny-lane-42.livejournal.com]

Agreed on everything. Especially with Fred.

I hate so much that the show fails on that level, because I want to like it so much. Cordy's there! They actually explore the idea of demons not being entirely evil! It's got that cool noir-ish thing going on! J. August Richards is pretty!

But when it fails, it fails so hard, and it keeps me from loving it like I do BtVS.

[penny-lane-42.livejournal.com]

I hadn't even considered that one. Ugh.

[angearia.livejournal.com]

I find myself not wanting to look for metaphors in ANGEL and just watching it for entertainment. Because looking closer diminishes the love.

The opposite is true with Buffy. The closer I look, the more I love it. Just like with her character. The closer I look at Buffy, the more I love her.

[gabrielleabelle.livejournal.com]

Yeah. I also get annoyed with the Big Poignant Moments. AtS is all about themes, and they're very explicitly portrayed. I tend to prefer themes more subtly done.

Meh. I'm giving it another chance with my rewatch. But I had a lot of issues the first time I watched it. I have reaction posts on my LJ under watching angel for when I first saw it. Heh.

[gabrielleabelle.livejournal.com]

Yep yep. Word. :)

[penny-lane-42.livejournal.com]

I love the way you phrased all that. Because it's so true. Every word.

[penny-lane-42.livejournal.com]

AtS is all about themes, and they're very explicitly portrayed. I tend to prefer themes more subtly done. YES! I wouldn't have thought of it in just that way, but you're so right! They sacrifice characters and common sense for the sake of those moments.

I'll be checking out those reaction posts. I always love reading that type of thing.

[that-september.livejournal.com]

Ahh, the last link. :\

I started watching Firefly with my Chinese-American/ABC friend whose family is fluent in Mandarin, and that was always one of her main comments: THEY'RE NOT SPEAKING CHINESE! Apparently, the only one close enough to having the right accent was Inara.

I also noticed the distinct lack of Asians in the cast, though for some reason, I think I always assumed the Tams were half Asian. The author of that article was making several really good points, but it always bothers me when I don't necessarily notice stuff like that for myself outright. I love Firefly so much that I wonder if sometimes I just let myself overlook details like that?

ETA: About the 'not-speaking Chinese' thing...it occurs to me that while it may have SOUNDED like gibberish, they did attempt to learn how, and speaking as a Westerner who has tried to learn Chinese, it really is exceedingly difficult. The accent has to be absolutely precise, and when they're trying to throw phrases into everyday conversation like that, I'd imagine it'd be pretty hard to get it perfect. It's not at all an excuse for the lack of East Asians in the cast, but it's something.

[gabrielleabelle.livejournal.com]

YES! I wouldn't have thought of it in just that way, but you're so right!

Eh, don't credit me with it. I was reading some of elisi's meta and she points out that AtS is about themes while BtVS is about characters (specifically, the Scoobies). Or maybe it was some shadowkat67 meta. Either way. They're both brilliant. :)

[queenofdenile.livejournal.com]

I think the writer makes an interesting point when she points to "She" as one of the only times AtS has a truly feminist message. It's really too bad that episode SUCKS and is only any good at all because of Angel's dancing at the beginning.

[penny-lane-42.livejournal.com]

So. TRUE!

But now I am laughing thinking about Angel dancing, which makes me happy.

[penny-lane-42.livejournal.com]

Yeah. It's been a hard experience for me getting to the point where I can admit the shows that I love so much (and that, honestly, form part of my identity) can be deeply flawed.

That's really fascinating that you've been watching it with your friend and hearing her thoughts. And I'm not one to complain overly much about them messing up the accent if they were genuinely trying.

But I do find the lack of East Asians disturbing, though, like you, I didn't really notice it when I was watching on my own. Someone had to point it out for me. But once they did, it becomes overwhelming. It's even more hurtful because of the tons of Asian actors out there who would have loved to have been cast in such a role. Plus, there's the fact that Joss seems obsessed with the east in an Orientalizing sort of way--exoticizing it without understanding it--and that he seems to deeply associate it with women and sex (Inara and Companions, Sierra and being constantly sexually victimized, etc.).

I think you should check out this vid. It's the first thing that really raised my awareness of this issue. Plus, it's one of the few vids that really prompted a reaction in me other than "Oooh! Pretty! Great music!"

[anythingbutgrey.livejournal.com]

omg those essays make me question my life. so good. i wish my feminism brain was better at analyzing these things. omg.

[serendipily.livejournal.com]

I guess with feministic values it dies overitme. Just a little. I mean you can only beat the crap out of feminist points so many times.
..
Hmm.

I would have loved the whole idea of Angel getting the visoins instead of Cordy. Women empowermant and showing she's stronger than him in some ways just makes me happy. Hee.

Fred dies because something overtook her body that she couldn't fight off. Cordy was th esame. I hated that aspect of the show that showed women in a weak sort of position. But hey, it's Angel. Buffy won't be busting through the double doors anytime soon.
(Well ...)


ALSO: Go vote for Buffy here! Because River is beating her, and we can't have that! As much as I love River, Buffy is my hero
Oh River ... my crazy River ...

[penny-lane-42.livejournal.com]

Ah, I love [Unknown site tag]. I'm constantly referencing things she came up with. I'll have to check out shadowkat67, too!

[shamoogity.livejournal.com]

Yeah, Angel did not have a great track record when it came to in-the-credits female characters. Cordy was basically an empty vessel, and Fred was the object everyone wanted to fight over/rescue/mourn. I will love Lilah forever though. There were a lot of interesting female characters who weren't in the credits. I also enjoyed Gwen, Kate, Darla, and Faith.

[penny-lane-42.livejournal.com]

YES. Exactly.

[penny-lane-42.livejournal.com]

Maybe you're right. *muses*

YES! Cordy kicks ass! (When they let her.)

NO! BUFFY'S BETTER!

[penny-lane-42.livejournal.com]

Yup. That's the thing that makes me so bitter about the show--Cordy was fabulous and strong and snarky and had so much potential, and then they just gutted her. It still breaks my heart.

But you're right about the other women. I was never a big fan of Kate myself, but I can see that she's fascinating to others. And I have so much love for Lilah, Gwen, Darla, and Faith.

[fenchurche.livejournal.com]

I was a bit disappointed by not seeing more Asian characters on the show... but I thought that several of the main cast, at least, looked like they could be of mixed heritage (the Tams, as you said... but also Inara and Zoe), which it seems like would be more common than finding people strictly of one race or another, that far into a future where mankind has been transplanted to another system.

I always thought it was rather brave, or perhaps foolhardy, of Joss to pick Chinese as one of the two major languages... considering exactly how hard it is to get right!

[serendipily.livejournal.com]

*pulls out the BIG O'L FEMINIST YELLOW PAGES* Let's cal up Joss and see what he thinks in this philosophical theory.

Cordy should have kicked some sense into those male writers. *shakeshead*

Um, s'cuse me? Have you seen the kickassness River can do? I propose a cage match.