lirazel | KPOP FANDOM YOU ARE KILLING ME!!!!

Current Mood: scared

Entry tags:

KPOP FANDOM YOU ARE KILLING ME!!!!

Gah, y'all, I have been so incredibly spoiled by my flist/dashboard, by my years in Buffy fandom, by the happy little world of feminist-consciousness I've been living in fandom-wise for the past few years. Trying to figure out how to deal with a fandom that isn't even on Feminism 101 levels is hurting my heart and my brain and making me realize how grateful I am for all of you.

Warning: fairly explicit talk about rape/sexual assault below the cut. PLEASE don't click on it if it might hurt you in any way at all.

Okay, so there's this tumblr blog that's basically dedicated to the female gaze and reveling in how hot the Infinite boys can be. All good: I love that. A lot of the graphics (gifs/pictures/whatever) in the posts are accompanied by little mini-fic scenarios involving one of the guys and 'me.' Now, I mostly don't read these because I really don't care much about them--very few of them are anything like my kinks and you know how I feel about porn when it isn't accompanied by character development.

But last night

aerintine messaged me and asked me if I'd seen the latest one about Myungsoo and how uncomfortable it made her and how she'd sent an anonymous message to ask for a trigger warning. So I went over there to read it and y'all: it was a rape story. There is no way around that. Myungsoo gets mad at 'me' kissing his BFF and he tears the narrator's clothes off and forces himself on her while she's saying "no" and "stop" over and over. And there was NO INDICATION in this post that something like this was coming: it was totally out of nowhere.

I was appalled.

[Brief moment aside: I realize a lot of women have rape fantasies and I have zero problem with that. Fantasize about what you want to fantasize about. But I realize it makes me profoundly uncomfortable when this particular fantasy is shared like this because...Myungsoo is a real person. I know I'm all about the whole 'rpf isn't actually about the real people it's about the characters of their public personaes that doesn't have anything to do with who they really are' thing, but apparently not when it comes to casting one of these real people as a rapist. Myungsoo is a sweet, really good boy who is easy-going 99% of the time and that remaining 1% when his anger gets to be really big he does the smart thing and he gets out of there (I really admire this, btw. He knows what his limits are and he tries to remove himself from the situation, so while I've seen him REALLY PISSED OFF, I've never seen him act in an inappropriate way in that anger. Precious baby). Of course I don't really know him, so I don't know what he's actually capable of, but I really don't think he'd be blatantly evil like that. Somehow the fact that he's a real person as opposed to a pure character makes me feel like this whole scenario was just...slandering him. I hate that. I hate him being associated with something like that (and this isn't even getting into my own personal belief that he's demi-sexual/asexual ANYWAY--I won't go there b/c it's pure speculation). Ugh. ANYWAYS.]

So

aerintine and I both messaged the comm and said 'hey, that was a rape fantasy, can you please include trigger warnings'? We were both firm but polite.

To her credit, the admin apologized immediately and went back to put on a trigger warning. YAY! All would be well and good except....

Except that she talks quite a bit about how 'that wasn't her intention' and that it might be read as rape but the character enjoyed it so it really wasn't, etc., etc. Cue, again, me wanting to pull my hair out. Y'all, I can link you to the story if you want, but I hope you'll take my word for it: there was literally no other way for this story to be read. The 'Myungsoo' character has NO WAY OF KNOWING the narrator's character was 'enjoying' it (and the narrator didn't make the enjoyment very clear, either, other than a brief 'but I kind of liked it' sort of thing) since THE ONLY WORDS SPOKEN were begging to stop and saying no over and over. That is rape, at least on 'Myungsoo's' part even if the narrator secretly enjoyed it.

Plus, there's this:

I personally don’t see it as something that severe but you are right, some may. It’s just that some times saying “no” while having actual sex does not have to precisely mean the real thing. It can 1- be used as a pretext for the other person to continue, and/or 2- just a way of turning the other person on; And while I wrote, it was used in that exact content and never as an order which Myungsoo dissobeyed.

UM. NO. It's true that 'no' can be used in other ways during sex BUT ONLY IF THE PARTNERS HAVE ESTABLISHED THAT UP FRONT AND HAVE A SAFEWORD IN PLACE. Which was totally, totally not the case in this context. The fact that the admin doesn't understand that is killing me, especially since she and a lot of subsequent commenters said a whole lot of stuff about how 'it's all in different povs' and 'you didn't mean for it to be taken that way' and 'different people interpret things in different ways' and people saying that our messages were 'hatemail' and that 'if you're reading this blog you know it's about pervy stuff you should get over it.'

THERE IS NO CONSENT ESTABLISHED IT IS NOT OKAY END OF STORY.

So I wrote a long series of comments explaining that, explaining consent and safewords and things like that, accompanied by thanking the admin for apologizing and putting the trigger warning in place and reassuring that I don't think she's a bad person and that I appreciate the female gaze of the site and things like that.

I did all this on anon not because I don't want the admin to know it's me--I'd be fine with that--but because I know for a fact that if I included my url I would get hate (perhaps really extreme hate) from other people. I know that would happen because that's what tumblr fandom and kpop fandom is like. UGH.

I have very little hope that I'll change the admin's mind. It sounds pretty made up already. But the fact that so many of these young girls (most of the followers are teenage girls) agree with her just scares me. Because they have no conception of consent. None. And that terrifies me. I've been lulled into an incredibly false sense of security by the awesomeness of my flist and I forget that there are all these girls out there who are so brainwashed by rape culture that they don't even know how consent works (YES MEANS YES!!!) and oh it hurts my heart and it scares me and I just want to hug them all and make them hot chocolate and sit them down and explain consent and ownership of their bodies to them in ways they will understand but I can't do that it I hate that I can't. I hate it.

Kpop fandom has given me so much unbelievable joy--maybe (maybe) more than any other fandom I've ever been in. But it's been accompanied by all these reality checks about how awful people can be and how vulnerable young girls are and how absolutely indoctrinated they are by rape culture.

I JUST DON'T KNOW WHAT TO DO, Y'ALL. I just really don't.

Flat | Top-Level Comments Only

I think talking about this in your journal is a great start. Like you said, in everyones flist theres a lot of teenage girl that've been living vicariously through fandoms & they take what they "learn" there to their real life.
I personally dont like rape scenes even when there the role playing scene development, and when that scene is not there is a rape scene & there is no way around it. One of the biggest mistakes I've seen with fandom writers is that they assume the reader will get what they wrote hence why there is so much triggering content.
And I feel a bit of worry how easily other reader disregarded the need for a warning for triggering content. When someone writes you want & expect a reaction but not something that can be harmful to the reader.
Wow there so many things that worries me about this whole situation but I think you are at least sharing valuable information with your flist!!!

Awesome post!!!

Thank you! You're very right!

One of the biggest mistakes I've seen with fandom writers is that they assume the reader will get what they wrote hence why there is so much triggering content.

You're absolutely right.

Wow there so many things that worries me about this whole situation but I think you are at least sharing valuable information with your flist!!!
Awesome post!!!

Thank you thank you!!!

I sent another Anon message this morning which the the admin responded to - and again, she was apologetic (YAY!) and humble about it (YAY!) but then trawled out the excuses again too and showed total cluelessness about the crux of the problem. BOO.

God, poor everyone. The admins, the women and girls following this blog, all of this fandom in general. POOR EVERYONE. (Poor Myungsoo. He'll never see it thank goodness, but it was hard to read, on his behalf alone. Hence the need for WARNINGS.)

This fandom brings me more joy than possibly anything else I've been involved in since I entered fandom in 2007. I don't say that lightly. The last 6-8 months have been like a dream discovering all of this WONDER and EXCITEMENT and pure, unadulterated JOY. And frankly, I only expect it to grow. There is so much goodness here, so much to love, so much that enriches my life in a number of ways big and small.

So yeah, this is a cold pail of water. And I don't know how to address this because that story and all the reactions to our messages tells me that we've hit the Kpop fandom iceberg, so to speak. Now we have to face it and deal with it. And it seems way too huge to even know where to begin. I'm paralyzed with not knowing how to handle it.

I saw that!

again, she was apologetic (YAY!) and humble about it (YAY!) but then trawled out the excuses again too and showed total cluelessness about the crux of the problem. BOO.

I KNOW. She's clearly a very sweet person, but her way of thinking is just so, so wrong.

God, poor everyone. The admins, the women and girls following this blog, all of this fandom in general. POOR EVERYONE. (Poor Myungsoo. He'll never see it thank goodness, but it was hard to read, on his behalf alone. Hence the need for WARNINGS.)

I KNOW I KNOW I KNOW.

This fandom brings me more joy than possibly anything else I've been involved in since I entered fandom in 2007. I don't say that lightly. The last 6-8 months have been like a dream discovering all of this WONDER and EXCITEMENT and pure, unadulterated JOY. And frankly, I only expect it to grow. There is so much goodness here, so much to love, so much that enriches my life in a number of ways big and small.

So yeah, this is a cold pail of water. And I don't know how to address this because that story and all the reactions to our messages tells me that we've hit the Kpop fandom iceberg, so to speak. Now we have to face it and deal with it. And it seems way too huge to even know where to begin. I'm paralyzed with not knowing how to handle it.

I could not agree with you more on all of this. All of it.

i think that bringing this up here is a really good thing because i've been shocked over and over again at how many girls out there have these alarming conceptions of rape and consent. it's definitely something that needs to be talked about more often. it makes me sad and incredibly frustrated when i see / hear things like it's not a big deal or it's not that serious, because it is and sometimes it's so hard to make people see that.

Edited 2012-12-08 16:54 (UTC)

Thank you! I agree--we have to have these conversations over and over till more people believe them. *hugs*

Honestly, I feel really uncomfortable with anything involving rape. I am ok with people fantasizing with it, because we all have fantasies and anyway it's one thing to fantasize about it or even make some sort of scenario with your partner who you trust and you've agreed to certains things or not, than an actual rape. I have some kinks that may not involve rape but involve some other things some people might be uncomfortable with, and I'm 100% ok with that. I'm all for sexual freedom and discovery and I think it's amazing people (especially women who've sort of hidden it a lot more through the years, because you know, female sexuality is wrong *rolls eyes*) has started to be more open about it.

BUT. It still makes me uncomfortable, which is why I always avoid like the plague anything remotely involving rape. Hell, even that episode of Buffy the vampire slayer where Spike almost forces Buffy makes me incredibly uncomfortable and I've found out that I spend half of that scene looking anywhere but at the screen. And Spike is a fictional character AND I understand where that part of the plot comes from (meaning I understand why the writers did what they did there). So imagine when it's Myungsoo (a real person that I sort of lovelovelove in that way you can only love people you don't really know at all but kind of do know in a sense) and it's in an scenario where there's not a reason for it to happen at all. I'm not against people writing it (or maybe I am? I don't know, I think I still have to figure out A LOT OF THINGS about RPF, honestly), but I am always going to ask for a trigger warning because it would've shocked me way too much. (Though I should also probably add that those 'scenarios' aren't my cup of tea, either; for some reason they don't make me comfortable. It's one thing for me to fantasize about Myungsoo in my head, which I do, but a whole different story to have some other person writing it and me reading. It's makes me feel... weird, idek).

Idk. This feels weird? I'm feeling really bad on Myungsoo's behalf because I cannot believe that Myungsoo could ever do something like that. And it looks/sounds dirty to me, to have his image and persona tainted with such an action without warning anyone who could possibly feel like me about it. Honestly, I've seen a lot of things like this done in fandom before. The Harry Potter fandom was prone to this sort of scenario, and I've personally read one fanfiction that did something like this, but it felt completely different because while it was obviously not nice, it was well done. It was about (spoiler tag in case you don't wanna read it) Bellatrix Lestrange using her wand and an object to rape Hermione Granger in the hopes of getting information about Harry out of her, and in it, Bellatrix really believes that doing such a horrible thing (even she's aware of how horrible it is in said fic) is the only way she has of breaking Hermione and make her betray Harry. Which I've always thought it was cruel and twisted but sort of clever and very in character with Bellatrix. It also helps that I know the author and I know her beliefs and principles and that was merely a piece of fiction and she knows where she stands and knew how to deal with it. This case you introduce here is the complete opposite of that and makes me feel really disgusted.

(lol, apparently I surpassed the character limit of a comment OTL)

I'm sad for those girls because, just like you say, they don't know much about consent or anything of the like and we all should be worried about them. I sometimes sound really... idek, I think some people might find me annoying cause I worry so much about these things and if the topic comes out in a conversation I will have a lot to say to the men and women involved alike and some may not like it, but UGH. It frustrates me so much to see certain attitudes and ways of thinking that may seem harmless but could be so so so dangerous when applied IRL! (I could talk a lot about 50 shades of Grey here, too; I actually had a discussion about said book with a classmate and she couldn't get over "how sexy is Christian!!1!!!" and I couldn't get over how much it had made me uncomfortable just reading ONE paragraph out of the book where the main character had absolutely no say in their activities, or she did it because "she loved him").

Ugh, anyways. I think I totally lost my point through this comment x_D I should be doing things cause I've got tons of work to do and idek if I'm going to get everything done in time (POOR TIME MANAGEMENT SKILLS HELLO) but I couldn't not comment here because UGH UGH UGH. This sort of people and thing just bothers me so much :|

And because I know you secretly love Myungsoo too, I'm going to try to leave the post with something nice~

. idek, I think some people might find me annoying cause I worry so much about these things and if the topic comes out in a conversation I will have a lot to say to the men and women involved alike and some may not like it, but UGH. It frustrates me so much to see certain attitudes and ways of thinking that may seem harmless but could be so so so dangerous when applied IRL!

I'm exactly the same way, and I really appreciate this about you!

I wish you good luck on getting everything done that you needed to, and I appreciate your comment! A lot!

OMG LOOK THAT RIDICULOUS LITTLE BOY. How could you want to write something like that about that precious adorable baby?

I am ok with people fantasizing with it, because we all have fantasies and anyway it's one thing to fantasize about it or even make some sort of scenario with your partner who you trust and you've agreed to certains things or not, than

Absolutely. And I'm sure role-playing of that nature can be fun if all the rules are established beforehand and if both partners are into it.

. Hell, even that episode of Buffy the vampire slayer where Spike almost forces Buffy makes me incredibly uncomfortable and I've found out that I spend half of that scene looking anywhere but at the screen. And Spike is a fictional character AND I understand where that part of the plot comes from (meaning I understand why the writers did what they did there).

Yeah, me, too. I skip that scene. With as many times as I've rewatched that season, I think I've seen that scene twice--the first time as I was watching through the whole series, and the second time when I went back to watch it intentionally so I could form an opinion on it.

So imagine when it's Myungsoo (a real person that I sort of lovelovelove in that way you can only love people you don't really know at all but kind of do know in a sense) and it's in an scenario where there's not a reason for it to happen at all. I'm not against people writing it (or maybe I am? I don't know, I think I still have to figure out A LOT OF THINGS about RPF, honestly), but I am always going to ask for a trigger warning because it would've shocked me way too much. (Though I should also probably add that those 'scenarios' aren't my cup of tea, either; for some reason they don't make me comfortable. It's one thing for me to fantasize about Myungsoo in my head, which I do, but a whole different story to have some other person writing it and me reading. It's makes me feel... weird, idek).

We're on the exact same page with all of this.

It also helps that I know the author and I know her beliefs and principles and that was merely a piece of fiction and she knows where she stands and knew how to deal with it. This case you introduce here is the complete opposite of that and makes me feel really disgusted.

Yes! There are ways to use rape in a fictional scenario that can be okay. But only when the writer is in the right headspace, you know? LIKE WHEN THE WRITER KNOWS IT'S RAPE. That's the worst thing about this whole situation to me--this girl still doesn't realize what she was writing about was rape!

:( kpop fandom is a murky place, as are all fandoms, but it's based in a different culture and a different language so the rules are sortof different. i've pretty much exited stage left bc it's not fun anymore and that's partly (mostly) my psychological issues settling in, but yeah, there are some major shitshows to be had, and gender politics and sexual prejudices play a big, big part in that.

i'm glad your admin was nice and apologetic and cooperative, but i also felt really sad reading about her trying to justify the fantasy as not rape. because it is. and i've never actually backed out of reading rape as rape in a narrative, but where consent is dubious, i've sometimes justified it, and sometimes it really is difficult to categorise, but the biggest problem can be questioning your own motives, just getting to a state of consciousness of the fact of needing to do that. because when we invest our love in something we don't want the object of our love to turn out to be awful. and when it comes to rape, people backpedal fast. and it's perfectly understandable. and fucking rape culture. it's so insidious, and time will teach these girls a lot and i hope to God that it doesn't come from a bad situation. i also feel the need to squish your face for how very staunchly you do not blame them, because a lot of people are righteous assholes when it comes to ~social justice and it is actually completely counterproductive schismatic dickishness and completely against the point.

yeah, there are some major shitshows to be had, and gender politics and sexual prejudices play a big, big part in that.

True. And it's really a struggle for me to figure out where the lines are between the stuff that's cultural and the stuff that isn't okay across that board. Like, in this case, this was clearly wrong, but there are other things where the lines are much murkier.

i'm glad your admin was nice and apologetic and cooperative, but i also felt really sad reading about her trying to justify the fantasy as not rape

Yeah, that's how I felt. She seems like such a sweet girl! But it broke my heart that she clearly has no idea what consent is. And I feel like knowing what consent is and how to establish it and things like that are absolutely necessary if you're going to write a scenario like that.

and when it comes to rape, people backpedal fast. and it's perfectly understandable. and fucking rape culture. it's so insidious, and time will teach these girls a lot and i hope to God that it doesn't come from a bad situation.

YES YES. It's so deeply embedded in people's minds! And you want them to break free from it, but you don't want it to come from learning lessons first hand!

i also feel the need to squish your face for how very staunchly you do not blame them, because a lot of people are righteous assholes when it comes to ~social justice and it is actually completely counterproductive schismatic dickishness and completely against the point.

Awww, thanks! You're right: I've seen some social justice warriors go way, way too far (especially on tumblr OMG I hate it), but I think if you keep in mind that you had to be educated to at some point and that these ideas are holding people captive, it's easier to be generous with them, you know?

Thanks so much for your awesome comment.

i think we have to be very careful not to be eurocentric; that gets harder when stuff doesn't translate well or at all. not to mention, watching and loving their shit doesn't make us experts on their culture and doesn't give us the right to out and out reject the stuff that doesn't suit us without examining cultural baggage. but honestly, we're usually dealing with international fandom who are in the same boat as us, and rape by any other name is as deplorable and yes is yes and no is no and you can never make that not the case, no matter what headgames are being played.

this is veering off topic, but while i'm not happy about it and i think chris brown is in the upper echelons of revolting, at the same time i dislike how much and the manner in which people are criticising rihanna for her choice to be with him again. because she's a role model and it's sending a terrible message but concurrently Man Down exists and speaks, shrieks, volumes about her stance on rape and illustrates rape culture at work in a visceral, no room for equivocation way. and that is out there too and i love her ass for doing that, and nobody mentions that at all when dissing her, and it still ends up the woman who gets more shit than the man? like what is that.

Well, I am coming from a fandom where RPF characters do ... a lot of bad things, which may affect my general level of surprise/shock. But if someone's writing out their rape fantasy, I don't expect established consent, because that can interfere with the fantasy? You know, the fantasy isn't based on a carefully negotiated scene with safe words, even though if someone wanted to act out their rape fantasy, that's the way it would go. On a similar note, on general memes, I see a lot of BDSM types saying that, when they read/write fic, they're not necessarily going for the realistic, negotiated, carefully constructed scene. They want the scenario that would be unacceptable/awful in real life, because the fic is constructing the fantasy, just like the real life scene constructs the fantasy. I'm not an expert on this stuff by any means, but it makes sense to me that, when people write out their kink fantasies, a lot of it won't align with acceptable behavior in real life. The author definitely should've used a content warning, but I don't think the fic necessarily needed to include established safe words, etc.

That said, her response is upsetting. It is concerning that you have young girls/women who don't understand consent and who confuse the fantasy with how things should operate in real life. It's also ridiculous to expect people to know your non-con scene was all consensual in your head or to say that your non-con scene wasn't non-con; for that, you definitely need some kind of context/set-up. But I'm guessing that you're smacking up against some language/culture differences. I don't think you can change the whole fandom, but hopefully these kids will grow up and get exposed to new ideas and learn to think differently about things, like a lot of us do. And maybe some feminist meta wouldn't hurt. :P

I totally, totally get what you're saying, and I agree with you by and large. The two issues for me were that A) there was no trigger warning and B) she refuses to see it as rape at all. If you're going with a fantasy, no, you don't need to do all the negotiations like you need to do in real life. But since she seems to have no concept of what consent even is, that's why I went into the negotiation stuff, if that makes sense. Like, write your rape fantasies, but first you have to know that they're rape? Like...know the rules before you break them type thing?

I think you and I agree a whole lot here. :D

But I'm guessing that you're smacking up against some language/culture differences.

Possibly. I don't think she was Korean--she could be American, she could be from anywhere, so I have no idea in this case. There definitely are a lot of language/culture differences in this fandom that are hard to navigate.

i don't think you can change the whole fandom, but hopefully these kids will grow up and get exposed to new ideas and learn to think differently about things, like a lot of us do. And maybe some feminist meta wouldn't hurt. :P

Thank you thank you for all your thoughts! I think you're right about everything.

B) she refuses to see it as rape at all.

:((((((((((

just... how?

So your comment inspired ~thoughts. Hope you don't mind if I ramble a bit at you.

The author definitely should've used a content warning, but I don't think the fic necessarily needed to include established safe words, etc.

Yeah, I understand this. Because it is a fantasy, in a sense the ~safeword is the action deciding to read the story (that's the moment of consent for the reader), deciding to engage in rape fantasy. And that's why failing to include the trigger warning seems like the worst offense to me, because it removes a person's ability to decide if they want to engage or not.

I'm less comfortable with rpf simply because I haven't really read/written a lot from that genre. But it does make sense to me thinking about the characters as their public personas while writing. Though, once you take it to separating the actual person from the persona -- what is the limit on how to portray them in fiction? And I don't think one can really police that.

What if the story were about the RPF character engaging in other acts of extreme violence? What if it's a murder mystery and the RPF character is the criminal? Where does one draw the line on the ~appropriate portrayal of RPF characters? Once the precedent is made that they're personas, not the actual living person, then I think it's more firmly entered the realm of fiction. And that rationale is what makes it okay to write RPF characters engaging in NC-17 fiction.

I think educating on consent is incredibly important, but I'm not sure that fantasy fiction is the arena for that. Then again, the fantasy fiction becomes a catalyst for revealing how much misinformation and misunderstandings there are about consent exist for so many people.

And maybe some feminist meta wouldn't hurt. :P

Right, this. I think feminist meta is the answer. Offering knowledge to the fandom directly, rather than educating through the fiction by making the fiction feminist-friendly. Being able to help people see why and how it's problematic.

Rambling is fine by me! <3

And that's why failing to include the trigger warning seems like the worst offense to me, because it removes a person's ability to decide if they want to engage or not.

I definitely agree. Readers should have the ability to opt out of content they find disturbing, just like readers should be able to opt into kinky content they think they'll enjoy. It sucks to be smacked with something unexpected. Whether you want to list it as a kink/trigger/content list/whatever, fandom convention expects authors to give readers the information they need to choose their reading material. (If only writers would warn for political opinions, etc., that I don't want to read...)

what is the limit on how to portray them in fiction?

Oh, boy. Hold on for Ghost's Thoughts on RPF.

You know, a couple of years ago, I would've listed RPF as a massive DNW, and now I write quite a bit of it and have ships, etc. And a lot of it is that I have a firm separation between the real life person and their public persona (which provides the basis for my fictional representations of them, except when it doesn't suit the story I want to tell). I don't care how Jared Padalecki and Misha Collins behave when they're at home with their families. I'm not trying to write the real people; I'm writing ridiculously good-looking OCs.

Also, J2 fandom (which I am admittedly not in) has been around long enough that it has its own fanon and cast of characters, etc.

But anyway, you're right that there's no way to police how people handle RPF. The characters are treated like fictional characters, and fandoms don't police how people represent those. That said, some communities will have rules, mostly pertaining to underage RL people, which I appreciate. I don't like actors' kids showing up.

What if the story were about the RPF character engaging in other acts of extreme violence? What if it's a murder mystery and the RPF character is the criminal?

You can find each and every one of these things in Supernatural RPF. In my experience, most individuals draw their own lines in the sand to deal with the ~ethical qualms~ of RPF, but it mostly has to do with what people are used, not how they're used. For example, you won't find me using any RL underage actors, and I won't use anyone who isn't an actor. So I won't write Misha's wife (she's an author, not an actor), but Danneel Ackles (Jensen's wife and an actress) is fine by me, even though she's never appeared on SPN. I won't use Jared's RL non- famous parents/siblings (a lot of authors do, mostly out of convention, but then you'll also find people who are okay with those RL people as long as they're not in villainous roles, along with the people who don't care how they're used).

Many, many thoughts ...

I don't write non-AUs (stories where the actors are actors on a show called Supernatural). But I had pretty much zero qualms about turning Misha Collins into an incubus or an omega for a story (or, you know, pairing him with whomever), and I'm mostly only bothered by the ~idea~ of dark content if it's used to bash a particular person. I don't really see anything inherently wrong with putting fictionalized versions of real adults into all kinds of objectionable situations (though there are definitely some things that I do not like and DNW and do not read), because I don't think they have anything to do with the actual, real people. But clearly I also take steps to preserve that separation, and I don't think that's super unusual among RPF readers/writers.

Also, it varies by fandom. From what I've heard, sports RPF seems a lot more concerned with capturing the real people's characterization than SPN RPF/CW Actor RPF.

I think educating on consent is incredibly important, but I'm not sure that fantasy fiction is the arena for that. Then again, the fantasy fiction becomes a catalyst for revealing how much misinformation and misunderstandings there are about consent exist for so many people.

I think that this situation is clearly one where the author didn't realize the rape was rape (or maaaaybe just got defensive and didn't want to admit to knowingly writing it???), but I agree with you that fantasy fiction isn't the right arena for education. A lot of the people writing non-/dub-con are very aware of consent issues, you know? Stories that ~feel~ more generic and unconscious in their treatment of certain issues bother me a lot more, because then it really seems like the author doesn't know. But even there, I feel like meta is the better way to go about things. Educating and provoking thought is great!

Y O U ♥

I don't even know what to do or say right now. This is really hard.

I personally never read the scenarios on that tumblr because the personal pronouns of "I" and "me" kind of squick me. I think they are cute, but I don't read them. And I typically love the admins - because they seem to be so squish-able.

But this breaks my heart. For Myungsoo and for the dialogue that happened. (Bravo to you and to J for messaging the admins and I AM SO SORRY that people are saying that it was hate mail - UGH I JUST CAN'T EVEN!)

and oh it hurts my heart and it scares me and I just want to hug them all and make them hot chocolate and sit them down and explain consent and ownership of their bodies to them in ways they will understand but I can't do that it I hate that I can't. I hate it.
oh honny - I feel the exact same way.

Kpop fandom has given me so much unbelievable joy--maybe (maybe) more than any other fandom I've ever been in. But it's been accompanied by all these reality checks about how awful people can be and how vulnerable young girls are and how absolutely indoctrinated they are by rape culture.
Maybe it was just time - maybe you needed to feel safe and comfortable and loved and proud - and now it's time to get back in the world. You have your blanket now - you have your safe space and now it's time to get back into the nitty-gritty.

Time to wade back into the sludge.

Which sucks - but I think, even though we have found a pocket of love and happiness - the world keeps going, and it's actually getting worse out there. And maybe now you are strong enough to help?

I personally never read the scenarios on that tumblr because the personal pronouns of "I" and "me" kind of squick me. I think they are cute, but I don't read them. And I typically love the admins - because they seem to be so squish-able.

Yup, that's me! But this is a whole ~thing in kpop fandom; there are TONS of stories on asianfanfics that are 'you' and idol-of-your-choice--the site even has a feature where you can put in markup codes so that the reader's username will automatically appear in the story instead of just 'you.' IT IS SO STRANGE TO ME, but in a way it's kind of cool because it fully embraces the whole fanfic-as-fantasy-exploration, which of course I'm cool with.

Maybe it was just time - maybe you needed to feel safe and comfortable and loved and proud - and now it's time to get back in the world. You have your blanket now - you have your safe space and now it's time to get back into the nitty-gritty.

Time to wade back into the sludge.

Maybe so! I hadn't thought of it like that. And I have needed these years because they roughly coincide (entirely not-coincidentally) with my feminist awakening. I hadn't internalized a lot of the worst aspects of rape culture that a lot of people have, but I didn't think about a lot of these things, either. A huge part of that is the fact that I grew up in a very, very safe environment (a huge part of my privilege) so most of these things weren't questions I even had to ask, if that makes sense. So now I've had these years of really learning all about lots of things that never impacted me before and realizing how important they are and thinking deeply about them...and yeah, maybe now I can share them. That's a good thought.

I love you loads and loads!

D: D: D: wow, that is so awkward and uncomfortable and.... okay, then.

Do you want to write some kind of meta about consent? Because if you do, I am here for you. As you know, peer-educating and consciousness-raising about consent are kind of my thing.

(P.S. IF YOU WANT TO READ FLUFFY RPF THAT'S NOT YOUR FANDOM IN WHICH ADORABLY CLUELESS BOYS NEGOTIATE KINK AND CONSENT, I CAN HELP YOU OUT WITH THAT.)

Edited 2012-12-08 21:19 (UTC)

Yeah, it was rough.

Maybe? I feel like if I write it and try to spread it through Infinite fandom, it will definitely be associated with this one girl, and I really don't want that to happen because she is a sweet, kind person and she's feeling terrible about it and I don't want to extend that experience for her. But maybe I will at some point in the future? And if I do, I will take you up on that because I lovelovelove your thoughts on that.

(I MIGHT READ THAT YES! THANK YOU!)

If you want, I could write and you can reblog. Because I am clearly not situated in kpop fandom and also have a track record of talking openly about both kink and consent.

If you do write, I will definitely reblog, though I am actually unsure how many kpop followers I have/whether it would get back to the appropriate people? BUT I feel like that sort of thing being ~out there in the world would always be an excellent thing. A little Consent 101 type of thing? That would be excellent if you want to! :D

Crying and crying.

We need to do something. (But, what?)

I know! *hugs* It's hard.

But hey, in happier things: you need to look at the comment above yours in this post. Because it includes a link to something I think might be ~relevant to your interests....

Oh no. No no no no. I don't even go theeeere. I won't. I won't. (You know me too well, obviously.)

HAHAHA I'M EVIL. Literally my first thought when I read that description was ELEONORE!!!!!

(Btw, do you mind if I don't use the accent sign when I write your name? If you need me to, I can use it, because I know it's an important part of your name. I just don't have access to it on my keyboard, I don't think. But I will figure out a way to do it!)

I am so screwed...
(But yes. If I was forced to choose a favorite fic trope that would have to be it.)

I don't mind at all. I have the 'é' as a key so it's no biggy for me to type but I know how complicated it can be when you don't ;) So really, it's okay like that!

(I think that's precious. :D )

Okay, I didn't want it to bother you because I know it's part of your name and that can be really important. Thanks for the permission!

You know, I'm really glad that you asked ♥ but now, no worries okay?

No more! ♥

I'm so sorry this happened. :((

I ran across something triggering on my dash the other and it was so incredibly upsettting. And then I checked to see if there was even a trigger warning, which there wasn't, so I immediately unfollowed that person.

I just.... rape culture. Sometimes I slip back into selectively not noticing how gross these attitudes are, because it's emotionally draining to be hyperaware all the time. It's just so problematic and upsetting, especially when you see how unaware young women are of its influence.

Ugh, I'm sorry you had to deal with that. I'm so, so sorry.

Sometimes I slip back into selectively not noticing how gross these attitudes are, because it's emotionally draining to be hyperaware all the time. It's just so problematic and upsetting, especially when you see how unaware young women are of its influence.

I KNOW. And since I'm not sexually active, it doesn't affect me on an explicit level so it's kind of easy not to think about it? But then I have to because it's affecting so many other people and everything breaks my heart.

It can 1- be used as a pretext for the other person to continue, and/or 2- just a way of turning the other person on

Wow. I know people actually think this, but wow.

Flat | Top-Level Comments Only

KPOP FANDOM YOU ARE KILLING ME!!!!

no subject

no subject

no subject

no subject

no subject

no subject

no subject

no subject

no subject

no subject

no subject

no subject

no subject

no subject

no subject

no subject

no subject

no subject

no subject

no subject

no subject

no subject

no subject

no subject

no subject

no subject

no subject

no subject

no subject

no subject

no subject

no subject

no subject

no subject

no subject

no subject