lirazel | Oh, God

Current Mood: pissed off

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Oh, God

I had sworn I wasn't going to do the link-to-whedonesque thing anymore. I'm sure it annoys y'all that I constantly have to scurry back here to get reassurance. I really am going to try to do it less in the future.

But this one time, I have to get my rage out. I'm feeling sick to my stomach and shaky.

Someone on whedonesque just made the most ridiculously sexist, homophobic, patronizing, self-congratulatory comment about shipping ever. And I am ANGRY.

Quote:

Saying that everything has to come down to some ship is kind of insulting. I know you probably weren't meaning to be. But.

I'm not a shipper. You can tell by how I'm a heterosexual adult man. I just like a good story.

Shipping itself is, in my humble opinion, not just stupid but destructive to the fandom. The story is what is what it is (and I'm including the TV show in this), but I can't comment on what actually has happened because it'll offend people who think things should be another way.

Let's say I decide that Riley should have been Buffy's true love, and regardless of what happens in the show, I get angry when she hooks up with anyone else. Doesn't matter that the events clearly show that that's not happening. Im'ma get pissed anyway. See how stupid that would be?

[eta] EMPHASIS HIS.

I...just...WTF?????

I called him on it. How much you wanna bet that he'll pull the whole "oversensitive" card?

It's okay. I will link the hell out of Derailing for Dummies. Never fear.

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OH SCREW THAT.

Screw. That.

This is one of those times when I'm tempted to just get an account on a site so I can slam somebody for their stupidity. (I have never actually gone through with this. BUT OH THE ALLURE AT THE MOMENT.)

I KNOW!

And there's totally a way to communicate the fact that you aren't fond of shipping and the way it affects fandom without BEING SO F'ING SEXIST AND HOMOPHOBIC AND LECTURING ALL US LITTLE LADIES ON HOW WE SHOULD REACT.

GRRRR!

I love you forever for being tempted. And do not blame you for not doing so. Seriously, it's an uphill battle over there.

*sigh*

Remember that "girls are ruining sci-fi" article debacle from ages ago? I was THISCLOSE to actually signing up over there, because not only was the article so disgusting, so many people were agreeing with it. (One commentator was talking about how Buffy was so gross to him because of all the ICKY GIRLS KICKING ASS OMG but Firefly "redeemed" Joss Whedon for him a little because it was so obvious the crew depended on Mal being a Big Strong Man to keep them from falling apart. OHMYGODSMASHKILLDESTROY)

I really, really hope that this BS over at Whedonesque doesn't come to that level of breathtaking AWFULNESS. I am glad Simon stepped in (though I'd be happier if someone just flat-out banned him, omfg.)

OH GOD YES I REMEMBER. HULKSMASH!

I don't think it will go quite that far. The mods are pretty good about steering people away from flamewars--they have practice. But they aren't always as good at recognizing inappropriate comments as I wish they were.

Good for you for calling Dispatch out, I doubt the mods would have intervened otherwise. I'm not a huge shipper myself, but the patronising anti-shipping atmosphere at Whedonesque annoys me to no end - it's a-okay to call someone a retard, but heaven forbid if you should say that you like Spike/Buffy or some other ship. That way lies the ruin of all fandom! Bah.

And I've gotta say, I didn't think I'd ever agree with KingofCretins about anything, but he's actually making sense there.

(also: Hi! I hope you don't mind that I friended you)

Your icon is made of win! Especially in this context!

But yes. Thanks! I felt it completely necessary to appeal to the mods.

It wasn't so much the anti-shipping sentiment--I've seen that a thousand times. It was the blatantly patronizing way he said it, like as a man--a straight man--he was above such stupid, destructive things, that those are the realm of stupid women and stupid gay men.

AND THEN HE TRIED TO LECTURE US LIKE ALL WE NEEDED ALL ALONG WAS A BIG, STRONG, RATIONAL MAN TO EXPLAIN IT AND WE'D ALL SEE THE LIGHT.

I mean, the anti-shipper sentiment over there is dumb, but whatever. It's the way he said it.

I've actually been agreeing with KingofCretins since the whole Twilight reveal. I don't know that I agreed with him before anything that because I've never particularly paid attention to his other comments. *shrug*

Also, I've noticed you calling people out on sexism over there on several occasions, and I want to thank you. Sometimes I feel like you and I and a few others are the voices in the wilderness there as far as sexism goes.

And yes! Friend away! I will friend back!

Your icon is made of win! Especially in this context!

It has for some odd reason become my usual posting-about_Whedonesque idon... ;) The icon itself is from

shinyshinybaum's batch of icons with random quotes by James Marsters, the master of weird non-sequiturs :D

It was the blatantly patronizing way he said it, like as a man--a straight man--he was above such stupid, destructive things, that those are the realm of stupid women and stupid gay men.

To me pretty much all anti-shipping talk sounds like that, though it might be just because I used to be (and still am) active in the 'boy' side of fandom before coming to the 'girl' side of Livejournal and fanfiction, so I'm used to anti-shipping always coming coupled with the attitude that shipping and fanfiction are silly wimminz things and /real/ (men) fans don't do it.

I don't know that I agreed with him before anything that because I've never particularly paid attention to his other comments.

I've clashed with him couple of times over Dollhouse and S8 and he's always come across as really patronising (though less in a mansplaing way and more in a general 'bow before my greatness plebes' kind of a way).

I have such a weird relationship with James Marsters. Er...not that I know him. But he's hilarious and he seems to always be really good to his fans...but then there's his romantic life, and it makes me headdesk forever. Sigh. He leaves me conflicted, as a person. Though not as an actor, which is probably a sign I should just stick to watching him on TV and ignore all the things other people post about his personal life.

But seriously, those icons are made of win, and I kind of love that you use that one when talking about whedonesque!

My time in the "boy" side of fandom was a long time ago and not in the Buffyverse. By the time I got involved in shipping, I was already pretty heavily into fanfiction as my primary fandom, so I never really saw the anti-shipping attitude as sexist, though I can easily imagine that this is the case, and I'll probably notice it more from now on.

(though less in a mansplaing way and more in a general 'bow before my greatness plebes' kind of a way).
Well, at least no mansplaining (seriously, isn't that the greatest word ever? I use it all the time!). That's much worse, imo, than just that general, "I'm the final word on life" kind of condescension.

I actually have some history with KingofCretins and he sometimes doesn't get it. But he's always a very logical person. He's also a lawyer, so he likes arguing. Just imagine him as Marshall trying to lawyer your ass, only toss in some Barney arrogance.

We've always gotten along pretty well, though we've disagreed a lot. The thing about King is that if he's wrong and you show him in a logical manner how he's wrong, he'll admit it. Like, he was angry about this issue and included a negative comment about Buffy, blaming her and I just called him to task on it. (Basically, he fell into the angry man acting sexist trap of blaming the woman.) I explained to him how blaming Buffy for what's happening would be like blaming Veronica for getting raped in Season 1 (he's also a Veronica fan!). And he admitted that he was wrong. We moved on.

But yep. I've totally been agreeing with him again and again ever since the Twilight reveal, so I'm right there with you.

Edited 2010-04-07 21:22 (UTC)

That's good to know. It makes me like him more, that he's willing to admit when he's wrong. And I knew you were agreeing with him, too! I remembered that!

Also, your icon is fantastic in this context.

I'm not a shipper. You can tell by how I'm a heterosexual adult man.
I... don't have any words. *walks away before she breaks anything*

You are a wise woman.

Oh god. I'm getting really REALLY sick of women being marginalized and dismissed as fans because we're over-sensitive, emotional and - now - destructive to the One True Fandom.

Excuse me, I have to go burn a bra.

Oh, wow, I love you for this comment. You totally nailed what's going on here.

Have I friended you back? I don't even know. *scurries off to check*

Yay new friend!

It's a good thing I don't have an account at Whedonesque or I'd probably be getting banned today. :-P

I erased my original comment like three times before I posted. The first one was like, "OH JUST WHAT US HYSTERICAL WIMMINIZ NEEDS. A BIG STRONG RATIONAL MAN TO SHOW US THE ERROR OF OUR WAYS" etc., etc., etc. It was ANGRY.

I sometimes wish I never signed up for an account there.

Every time you use that icon, I come closer to stealing it...

The first one was like, "OH JUST WHAT US HYSTERICAL WIMMINIZ NEEDS. A BIG STRONG RATIONAL MAN TO SHOW US THE ERROR OF OUR WAYS" etc., etc., etc. It was ANGRY.

Probably a good thing you didn't post it... but I kinda wish you had. That would have been very satisfying to watch.

I was so close...

But it's good that I didn't over there, because I know Simon would have told me to drop it, and then the implication would have been that I was at fault as well. *sigh* Oh, well. I feel like my finally posted comment communicated my anger well enough.

Hee! You know you wants it...

I also feel that this one is appropriate.

Oh! That one is awesome, too!

UM WHUT?

Excuuuuuse me, but even if I ship someone that doesn't mean I'm a) stupid, b) not paying attention to the overall story arc, c) enjoy good writing.

And if a story pairs a character (as they all seem to do anyway, which is just CANON shipping) with someone completely incompatible/weird/nobasisforarelationship then how does that make me immature for thinking the writers are paying attention to their own storylines?

Argh. How annoying and presumptuous.

UM, YES.

THANK YOU.

*uses similar awesome-Zoe-kicking-ass icon*

I think this reply to the comment sums it up:

I'm not a shipper. You can tell by how I'm a heterosexual adult man. I just like a good story.

Please, please, please, please, please, mods, tell me you're not going to let all the patronizing sexism in that comment stand. Please.

Also, what on earth does your being straight have to do with anything at all? So being destructive and stupid is something only hysterical wimminz and gay guys do?

Hahaha! That was my comment! So I'm glad you thought it summed everything up! Win!

Haha, I fail at being observant :)

Do you think we have enough fierce women in our icons to make our point?

It's okay. I do, too!

THERE CAN NEVER BE ENOUGH FIERCE WOMEN!

I'm not a shipper. You can tell by how I'm a heterosexual adult man.

...because he's being a douchebag?

Okay. Couldn't resist. He left himself open for it!

I like how he added "adult" in there, implying that shippers are being childish (as well as being irrational wimmenfolk). What a charmer. I'd like to play with him.

He did. I'm glad you went for it.

YES.

hkath had a post recently about using the phrase "like a twelve-year-old girl" disparagingly that was really awesome. And I was flashing back to it the whole time. When I wasn't seeing red with rage.

I'd like you to "play" with him, too. Like Vamp!Willow and the Puppy.

I remember that post. Very relevant.

Cause, see, heterosexual adult males sit at the pinnacle of the pyramid of rationality (and intelligence and competence and...wait why is a women trying to explain this anyway? This is Man Work!).

*goes back to mindlessly squee over Spike's cheekbones*

Cause, see, heterosexual adult males sit at the pinnacle of the pyramid of rationality (and intelligence and competence EXACTLY. That's exactly what he was saying!

Ooooh! Cheekbones! *drools*

Oh my god, check out what I'm running into at Buffy Forums. There's men trying to talk about feminism and just NOT GETTING IT AT ALL.

WHY??? Why talk about something you know nothing about it and act like you're an authority who gets to pass judgment?

Okay, that just makes me want to cry.

And flail.

And cry some more.

Feminism should be common sense, people!

I KNOW. I just... *flails*

Uhhhh. I need help responding to this. I just don't know what to say.

Edited 2010-04-07 21:25 (UTC)

Dude. He lives in a world where men holds the power. He watches media that is almost exclusively produced, written, and directed by men (Yes! This includes BtVS!).

I'd say sidestep the privilege argument (cause that could get into a tangent). But let him know that women's voices, to this day, still largely go unheard and dismissed. So, yes, when discussing issues involving women and feminism, it's kinda awesome for the men to step back and let women have the floor for once. In any group dynamic, men will tend to dominate the conversation (if he wants studies, I can probably find them). That's his fucking privilege, and he's not even aware of it. That's just "normal" to him. But for women? It means that we end up sitting and listening to guys talk all the time, but when we try to take up at least half of the conversation? We're perceived as taking it over completely.

So yeah, dude, STFU and let the chicks talk. Sheesh.

Ugh. I'm too flail-y to edit my typos and bad grammar.

Make it sound pretty, hon.

I'm so bad at arguing this. I need to be like, you, or something.

Can I steal some of your words above? Quoting you?

Go for it. Though I'd de-rage it first (You know, make it sound not-as-angry). Keeping a level tone is a key debate strategy.

Yeah. I'm not so good at this. Sigh.

You are! You're doing a great job! With your powerful words!

Oh, goody! A flounce!

BEING TOLD YOU'RE A SECOND CLASS CITIZEN BECAUSE OF YOUR GENDER??? WELCOME TO BEING A WOMAN. WE FEEL LIKE THAT ALL THE DAMN TIME.

Oh, God. I don't know if I have the patience to do this for the rest of my life. So often I feel like I spend vast portions of my life doing Feminism 101 for people that I could spend being, you know, happy.

GAH!

He just shut down the communication and told me to stuff basically. That he wouldn't be talking to me period.

Why do men keep doing this to me????

UGH.

I've sent him Private Messages with that link btw. We'll see if he acknowledges them.

Because they're scared of your power.

Seriously. It's just like Buffy in Checkpoint realizing that they're bothered by the words woman and power in the same sentence.

Your words are powerful. They are scared of the way you're refusing to stay in the place the hegemony has assigned you to. That's the answer.

Do let me know how he responds to it.

You're fab. Seriously, I'm glad that you frequent the non-LJ places. That means you give out the smackdowns that I can't.

Preach, sister.

I'm often jolted when I wander to non-LJ places of fandom because I'm now so unused to there being so many...um...guys. Not that we don't have any here! There's some wonderfully fantastic guys here in LJville.

BUT, I also know that men are the numerical minority in LJ fandom. Not only that, but feminist thought and ideas are understood and mostly welcome (and, indeed, almost assumed in some parts).

So I have my little comfortable bubble where people are enlightened and thoughtful and egalitarian. When I step outside to take a peek around fandom-at-large, I get a bit of a shock cause it feels like I wandered into Boyztown.

We do have some great guys here, don't we?

Not only that, but feminist thought and ideas are understood and mostly welcome (and, indeed, almost assumed in some parts).

So I have my little comfortable bubble where people are enlightened and thoughtful and egalitarian. When I step outside to take a peek around fandom-at-large, I get a bit of a shock cause it feels like I wandered into Boyztown.

EXACTLY. This is my reaction, too. The starting line is in a totally different place out there than it is in here.

I like it here.

I'm frantically reading through to catch up, but I just got to the part where he was offended that you said he had privilige as a man.

Send him here. Make it clear that by the definition of privilege, all men have male privilege.

I'll get back to you on other things!

I just replied with this:

Well, it seems like we'll be speaking in separate rooms or something where I can still read his posts and his viewpoint and he won't acknowledge mine. :P

But hey! I'll still talk to you, King. I was just having a discussion about some comments on Whedonesque and how we're all agreeing with you for denouncing that "heterosexual adult male" =/= shipper argument. Lots of praise for that enlightened viewpoint. *thumbs up*

Oh, and this is privilege. It's something the individual has no control over. It exists because of societal views and of how society treats the individual. If the individual is male, then he's privileged. He's got the power and society acknowledges this by giving him his due. The individual doesn't live in a vacuum. If they live in society, they possess a degree of privilege. And in most of the world, that privilege is predominantly male privilege.

I'll add, I don't like being treated like a second-class citizen every day of my life.

Very eloquently stated, as always.

You have powerful words, and you're not afraid to use them. Guys (and some women) will try to shut you down because it's easier to ignore you than try to understand. That's their loss. Only thing you can do is keep talking wherever you can. They can cover their ears, but they can't silence your voice.

*fist-bump of solidarity and...um...sisterhood or somesuch nonsense*

*headesk forever*

Ugh.

Well, since he's a heterosexual adult male, and so very straight and manly and sensible, I have no doubt he'll educate you on the error of your shipping, womanly, hysterical ways.

I can see it now: "All right, let's just calm down, lady. I wasn't attacking you, just expressing my opinion, and being the hysterical feminazi that you are, you blew it way out of proportion."

Then he'll throw in something about he's not sexist or homophobic, no doubt, and inform you his problem is with shipping.

Good for you for standing up to this.

YES. YES YES YES.

Also, your icon is PERFECT.

But thank goodness he hasn't appeared yet again.

Thanks, hon! *hugs*

As if Bangel!Boinking!Day wasn't going to be bad enough . . . the douchebags are out in force. This really, really irks me when in the context of recent heated LJ conversations about representation of women in comics, but now we got to deal with this? Like I said in all facetiousness on your last post, I never self-identified as a feminist until I got into Buffy. It's really sad to see the side of fandom that doesn't find her empowering.

There is so much fail implicit in this guy's post. Even other heterosexual adult men are marginalized by this guy because they may be shippers. Good for him! Alienating even his own kind!

I am going home tonight and watching the new episode of Doctor Who (finally!) and writing domestic!Spuffy!kitty!fic, because I just cannot handle this anymore.

There is so much fail implicit in this guy's post. Even other heterosexual adult men are marginalized by this guy because they may be shippers. Good for him! Alienating even his own kind!

YES.

OK, INSTANT INCANDESCENT RAGE!

Where are my laser beam eyes when I need them?

I've stayed away from whedonesque today. Maybe I'll look tomorrow. But, I'm glad you called him on it.

Did I ever tell you the story of my HS Drama teacher? He was surprised to find I liked sci-fi, because girls "aren't usually intelligent and patient enough to get into that".

True. Story.

But at least I know where all this rage on "shippers as bad fans" comes from. I haz had a breakthrough, right here on your LJ!

SHOOT ME NOW.

*dies*

Not that I need an excuse to be angry about that. I simply didn't know how to handle incandescent rage as a 14-year old. I needed Buffy, but she wasn't a twinkle in anyone's eye then.

Ack, SO MUCH BUFFY LOVE RIGHT NOW.

*goes off to have epiphany*

LASER BEAM EYES! YES!

Thanks. I'm glad I said something, too.

"I'm not a shipper. You can tell by how I'm a heterosexual adult man. I just like a good story."

Huh. I'm a heterosexual adult man shaped person, I ship Spike/Buffy, and read fanfiction by the bucket loads. Should I feel insulted a bit too? This person is so....he's a guy I'd like to kick in the nuts. Stupid people, do stupid things.

Now I'm going to go to Pizza Hut and have my comfort food.

*hugs you*

You're what we scientifically refer to as "the good ones." See, it's a very scientific name. We can be logical, rational and scientific, even if we're silly girls!

Is this a bad confession? I don't know? But I don't think I realized you were a guy? Should I feel bad about this?

Nonetheless, I have always known you are awesome. And this just solidifies it!

he's a guy I'd like to kick in the nuts. Stupid people, do stupid things.
WORD.

I hope you enjoyed your pizza! *is crazy about pizza*

Nope, you're in the good, I'm not sure how you were supposed to know I was a man. It is the internet. Just think of me as a person, and I'm happy. I've had trouble with this to. Sometimes when I talk about someone that uses a LJ..... and I want to use a pronoun instead of the the persons LJ name I stumble and realize I don't know whether the person is a he or a she. Sometimes it is obvious by reading their LJ, other times it isn't.

I very much enjoyed my pizza. :)

WHAT IS THIS I DON'T EVEN

Seriously, people. Of course all shippers are female (or gay), probably teenagers. It's just COMMON SENSE. Anything else is crazy talk.

And those damn wummins are destroying our ~~society~~! If they don't keep their place ~~in the kitchen~~ not saying any possible irrational and over emotional (AND NOT POSSIBLY JUST A PERFECTLY VALID PART OF FANDOM; OH NO) shippiness, then our whole system will collapse! Ohnoes!

...Wow, rant. But seriously, fail.

Okay, now I'm pissed. It's sucky enough to live int he most conservative state in all of the America but now to have it point blank caused to fandom is just ridiculously infuriating.

He's going to pull the oversensative card out and the "typical female" card out on you. And if he's stupid enough he might just mention your menstrual cycle. Because all females that ship are oversensative, highly emotional, stupidly flightly, bitchy and all the time on their period. Of course, he's figured us all out.

The point of fandom isn't for "us women" to to get overly hyped up about a situation we can't change, ti's about expressing our views on somethign we love, whatever that might be. We don't change only alter in a highly fashionable way. *giggles* We have fandom because it's the outlet the fandom doens't let us have. God, hsi observation is so fucking closeminded it makes me cringe.

*huffs*

You live in South Carolina? Is that where you are?

OH IF HE HAD MENTIONED MY PERIOD I WOULD HAVE CUT HIM.

The point of fandom isn't for "us women" to to get overly hyped up about a situation we can't change, ti's about expressing our views on somethign we love, whatever that might be. YES!

*huffs too*

*giggles* Close. Utah. *thud* Where necklines are to your nose and God will send you to hell for even thinking another person of the saem sex is remotely attractive.

If he had mentioned your period, i think all of th efemale population would ahve cut him. With stakes. Burning the holy wate rhell out of him. *giggles*

I just noticed how ranty that post was.

BECAUSE THE ONLY WAY YOU COULD BE A SHIPPER IS IF YOU'RE A WOMAN OR A GAY MALE.

This motherfucker. The superiority and complete wrongness of that comment makes me want to smash things.

And lolol relationships, those pesky things, are often central to the story. CRY MOAR, DOUCHEBAG. /raaaaaage

Other than this fail heaped on you, how goes life, dear?

I LOVE YOU AND YOUR RAGE. AND WHOEVER IS ANGRY IN YOUR ICON I CAN'T TELL.

It's okay. I'm feeling much better now that warm weather is here. But it's still pretty...just okay, you know? I have decided to actively start looking for a new job, though. Are you proud of me being active instead of passive?

How are things with you now that you finally found the syllabus? I'm sure you're kicking life's ass, right and left!

IT'S CHRISTIAN BALE. AND HE'S JUST ABOUT TO TRASH SOMEONE'S LIGHTS.

I AM SO PROUD. And I wish you all the luck in the world in that department.

They're goooing. I am still crazy behind on all the stuff I have to read/work I have to read, but if I keep at it I'm sure it will all get done. I HOPE.

And of course he has to throw that adult in there. Cause ya know, only little girls 'ship.

Not intelligent, adult women too. Nope.

Well, what's the difference, really? They're all just girls. Who need rational men to tell them how to act!

*fumes*

WHAT.

I KNOW RIGHT.

Oh, what the eff. Is he seriously arguing that his penis makes him right???

I just... Wow, I kind of love fail this epic.

Edited 2010-04-08 01:51 (UTC)

Is he seriously arguing that his penis makes him right???
Sounds like it to me.

I know! How is it possible to be this blatant!

I'm also sort of amused that he never popped up again after I called him on it. 100 POINTS TO ME!

I'm a heterosexual adult man covered in facial and body hair and I love having a beer and bonding with the boys, watching and playing the kind of sports where people get injured, testosterone-laden status posturing, and spuffy.

YOU WIN AT LIFE.

*loves*

HAHAHA. Hetrosexual men like good stories, and women and homosexual men ship! Because heterosexual men aren't distracted by all that love or sex crap, no sir! Really terrible, for implying that all shippers are weak and then that women and homosexual men are weak too.

You did good by telling him off. I think Simon was reasonable in simply telling the guy not to make statements like that, and move on, though the comment still remains on the board (which is a shame, and reflects poorly on the site).

I am happy that KingOfCretins immediately identified himself as a heterosexual male adult shipper afterwards.

I promised myself I would stay out of Whedonesque after this issue came up, because it is simply getting too crazy over there. That, and I am actually (don't hurt me) enjoying the comics, and want to stay away from the negativity, even the completely reasonable kind.

Really terrible, for implying that all shippers are weak and then that women and homosexual men are weak too.
Exactly. His disdain for anyone who isn't a straight, adult man is just jaw-dropping.

Thank you!

I think Simon was reasonable in simply telling the guy not to make statements like that, and move on, though the comment still remains on the board (which is a shame, and reflects poorly on the site).
Agreed on everything.

And yes, KingofCretins got some points from me.

I promised myself I would stay out of Whedonesque after this issue came up, because it is simply getting too crazy over there. That, and I am actually (don't hurt me) enjoying the comics, and want to stay away from the negativity, even the completely reasonable kind.
I think this was wise. And I wouldn't hurt you! It isn't for me, and I do think there are some issues with it, but I have no problem with you liking it.

Yaknow, the one good thing that came out of this Massive Fail is that I now know how many hardcore feminists and pro-feminists there are in my corner of fandom. It makes me appreciate this community even more, knowing that people share my RAGE.

IT'S IS SO GREAT!

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Oh, God

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