(no subject)

[lirazel]

Warning: these thoughts are very preliminary and more coming from a place of instinct than well-formed thought. I am happy for anyone to push back against anything I say provided you do it respectfully.

Hannah and I were talking yesterday (in a very un-nuanced way) about how weird it is that within fandom circles, there are fewer and fewer people willing to engage in commenting/meta-writing/actual fannish conversation (or hell, even reblogging of art on Tumblr), but more and more people who think nothing of paying for online stuff? I am shocked that this ko-fi thing has taken off--I guess I'm old school enough that the thought of monetizing fandom is horrifying to me.

I mean, I guess there's an entire cohort of people who never used the internet before Facebook introduced the like button and so don't know the joy of full-on fannish engagement. And those same people are accepting the commodification of...everything.

It's just really, really weird to see. I know there was a gap in culture between the pre-internet 'zine-and-conventions fans and then the very first fans who were using the internet before the world wide web and then again my generation who started using it in the late 90s and came up on message boards and mailing lists and such. But the gap between those earlier generation of fans (and by generation, I'm very much talking about "when you got involved in fandom," not what age you are) and the current one seems like a chasm. I just don't recognize how they do fandom, and I am actually pretty sad that none of them seem to want to do it the way we do it (only, you know, with greater diversity, etc. I'm not pretending like the internet in 2001 was perfect. It was much whiter and richer, and lots of things about accessibility have changed for the better since then).

I've just always really loved that fandom is a gift economy and that the gifts go both ways. That I write fic because I want to share it with y'all, and y'all respond and engage with it, and we all have a great time together. A "content"-based view of fandom where you just ~consume~ is just so repugnant to me and I don't want anything to do with it, and I know we're not going back to a livejournal kind of fannish experience, but I'm just...really not looking forward to further changes in fandom. I don't see good developments coming down the road, and I can't figure out if this is me being all Old Man Yells at Clouds or if I'm right and things just aren't as fun anymore.

And yes, this is partially about me getting fewer comments when I write fic for a huge fandom than when I write for a Yuletide-sized fandom, but also it's about a general feeling that people just don't view fandom (or even the whole internet) as a place of two-way interaction anymore.

Comments

[belecrivain]

So I'm the wrong person to respond to this, given that I don't run nowadays in fandoms big enough to have these issues; I'm going to run your hypothesis by my friend E, who has been moving in big but very different fandoms (Reylo and now BTS) and see what her take is. (Also E is very active on Twitter and has a much more positive experience of it than I do.)

(I feel like it's also easier to have "huge fandoms" now? My husband was in an anime-focused 'zine in the mid- to late-90s, even though the idea of anime by itself being so niche as to be the focus of a zine with two dozen people would be laughable now. Buffy didn't feel like a huge fandom at the time; it felt like me and two separate groups of friends who loved the show. Now the mechanisms of creating a fandom are so well established that it may be hard for an interest with mainstream institutional backing to feel niche.)

My recollection of early 2010s Tumblr was there was an underlying tension about credit -- not cropping the logos out of fantaken photos, complaints about ideas being stolen, et cetera. I wonder if that + fandoms going over Dunbar's number is what's bugging you. Nowadays a fandom can grow so quickly that the meta-writers can't find each other before their experiences are swamped, and if they do find each other, then it's harder to establish mutual trust. Maybe? I'm not sure. I'm glad the Kinnporsche meta writers were able to find each other.

[lirazel]

I am interested in hearing from people in very different fandom contexts than mine so I will await your report with interest!

My husband was in an anime-focused 'zine in the mid- to late-90s, even though the idea of anime by itself being so niche as to be the focus of a zine with two dozen people would be laughable now.

This is charming.

I have personally always thought that that tension about credit was something that was specific to Kpop fandom (or perhaps to Korean or East Asian fandoms in general? Not too clear on that). It seemed completely different than my previous years of experience with Western media fandom. It seems to have chilled a lot, whether that's from the more international nature of Kpop fandom now or just...people maturing, I couldn't say. But I don't notice it anymore the way I did back then.

I wonder if...fandoms going over Dunbar's number is what's bugging you.

Possibly! And of course we all know that the change of platform changes the nature of discussion and that things that are possible on DW (or on LJ back in the day) simply aren't possible on Tumblr/Twitter. (Idk about Discord.)

Nowadays a fandom can grow so quickly that the meta-writers can't find each other before their experiences are swamped, and if they do find each other, then it's harder to establish mutual trust.

This seems like a possibility! I also feel that fandoms are not as long-lasting as they used to be, at least when they're based on TV/movies instead of bands/RPF. I mean, BtVS and TXF were hopping for years and years after those shows went off the air. Trek and SW are evergreen fandoms. But since SPN, does anything else have the staying power? I feel like whatever people are talking about on Tumblr (and presumably on Twitter too) just changes so fast to whatever new show captures fannish attention for five minutes.

[elperian]

I don't think you're off base here, and I think it's probably tied to influencer culture and seeing that bleed into fandom spaces (at last - it took a long time, but you can't keep the Visigoths out forever). I'm less hoping that there will be pushback against this trend in fandom - for reasons I'll state in a moment - than that there will be a schism. I'm not hoping for the former because all the evidence I've seen over the last decade is that people like influencer culture and the commodification of hobbies. A lot of people say they don't, but: talk is cheap. Why do influencers stay influential? Because people opt-in to that space, keep watching their work, and sharing their work (even if to criticize it - which is also apparently a way of becoming an influencer). I think it's probably futile to hope that it will just go away as long as the internet is around and relatively wild. Even if it became more restrictive, I don't see the culture around this going away - there are plenty of influencers who dominate in authoritarian countries that try to squeeze the 'net, they're just curated by the ruling class.

But I do hope there is a schism - that if this takes over Tumblr or Pillowfort (it has a snowball's chance in hell of taking over places like DW), places for the fans like us emerge or persist in their space.

[nyctanthes]

all the evidence I've seen over the last decade is that people like influencer culture and the commodification of hobbies.

+ 1. This this this. (Though it baffles me, especially in its Tumblr permutation: the anonymous ask.)

[lirazel]

I'm less hoping that there will be pushback against this trend in fandom - for reasons I'll state in a moment - than that there will be a schism.

I think you're right that this is more likely and probably more desirable. Those of us who feel some sort of through line with the heritage of western media fandom (I have always thought of those 60s housewife zine-writers as my fannish ancestors) can do different things, and the people who have only experienced the post-social media internet landscape can do their thing.

people like influencer culture and the commodification of hobbies. A lot of people say they don't, but: talk is cheap. Why do influencers stay influential? Because people opt-in to that space, keep watching their work, and sharing their work (even if to criticize it - which is also apparently a way of becoming an influencer).

You are correct. There are a bunch of people who unironically love the influencers; there are a bunch of people who hide their love behind "irony"; and then there are a bunch of people who really do hate-follow. I don't understand any of those things, really--the parasocial relationships I have tend to be with, like, podcasters (Sarah Marshall, Michael Hobbes, Audrey Gordon) or YouTubers (Lindsey Ellis, ContraPoints) whose whole schtick is being deeply thoughtful about cultural trends. Those are the people I'm drawn to, and I find more standard kinds of influencers actively off-putting. But I am in the minority, I think!

Anyway, that was far afield of the point, which is that I think your observations are all correct.

[snickfic]

I have a couple of thoughts here, which are also largely instinctual, but are maybe kind of a reframing.

First, the thing about fandom now is that it's SO MUCH BIGGER than it was even when I met you 13(?) years ago, and that huge influx of growth means is that there are a lot of people now "in fandom" in some sense who were never going to do fandom the way we were used to doing it. If that was their only option, they wouldn't be here. And maybe you'd rather they weren't; maybe the rest of fandom would be better off without them. But I think the commodification comes partly from fandom being mainstream now. I would guess that the absolute number of people interesting in two-way communication and making things is probably the same or has grown, but they make up a smaller proportion of fandom than they used to.

Second, I don't really consider Ko-fi commodification in the same way I would, say, a commission (although I'm pretty sure commissions have been around forever, people were just quieter about them). Yes, it's money, but you're not exchanging the money FOR anything. This might not fit the technical definition of a gift economy, but it is still a gift, an expression of appreciation, not a payment in exchange for goods or services.

Third, I could write you essays on what gets feedback on AO3. 😂 But I don't think getting less feedback in big fandoms is necessarily a sign of like, larger trends of fannish degeneracy or whatever. It's just plain harder to find stuff you like in big fandoms, and people are more dependent on recs, bookmarks, and being able to sort by kudos, all of which privileges the early breakout hits. Whereas one of my best-performing fics of the past three years is a 1500-word rarepair femslash fic for Crazy Rich Asians, of all things, that I wrote for a flash exchange. (NOT Yuletide, please note; no built-in comment-culture audience here.) That ship has like 40 fics in it! The fandom is still Yuletide-eligible! Meanwhile, SPN fandom always sucked at feedback for me. Moving from Buffy to SPN was an unpleasant shock, and that was still on LJ! Then AO3 was even worse. Yes, I was writing rarepairs, but I wrote rarepairs in Buffy, too, and still got lots of readers.

Those are just some counterpoints that come to mind. That said, I do think fandom has gotten worse, partly due to antis but largely due to stuff that's much much bigger than fandom (granted, I suspect what's driving antis might also be a lot bigger than fandom). The big one is platforms, obviously. The internet as a whole has moved from longform text to microblogging to videos with no written text at all. And then there's like... instagram?? Even platforms that still exist have gotten actively worse for fandom, like tumblr, which according to my arty friends was the best art platform fandom has EVER had for a while there.

Between those two factors of antis and platforms, I'm hearing that some of fandom is going underground. I know someone primarily into art who says basically all the art and fic in her fandoms is being shared on private discords to avoid antis. She kind of forgets AO3 exists for months at a time. On one hand that makes me so, so sad, but on the other hand it kind of just feels like another turn of the wheel, you know? Fandom has a long history of hiding itself away in zines and private Yahoo mailing lists. And it's probably a pretty healthy shift, too. People are doing fandom in a way that works for them and feels safe, and if public fandom isn't it, then they will do it privately. It was a nice reminder that the fandom we're seeing isn't all there is, and that as a wise man once almost said, fandom will find a way. :')

In conclusion: I hear you, for sure. I have a lot of mixed feelings. But IDK, I don't think it's as bad as you fear, and I don't think the trend is inevitably downward.

[lirazel]

there are a lot of people now "in fandom" in some sense who were never going to do fandom the way we were used to doing it. If that was their only option, they wouldn't be here.... I would guess that the absolute number of people interesting in two-way communication and making things is probably the same or has grown, but they make up a smaller proportion of fandom than they used to.


This is a very good point! And a good thing for me to remember!

And it's not that I want all these other people to go away--I'm glad they're having fun doing their thing--I just wish I could find more people who like the old-fashioned way of doing things, and I feel like it's really difficult to find them!

You remember how there used to be two kinds of fandom? One was (grossly generalizing) mostly dudes, and they were all about collecting facts and going to cons and...I don't know what else they did. But they were very separate from the mostly female and queer side of fandom that was much more into transformative works of all kinds whether that was fic or meta or vidding or whatever. And while there was some overlap--particularly, for me, in my early Star Wars days--they kind of functioned as separate ecosystems? I would like a situation more like that, where the lines between different ways of doing fandom were more clear. Not as a gatekeeping thing, because I don't really want to gatekeep. Just as a way of...finding my people. If that makes sense.

But I think the commodification comes partly from fandom being mainstream now.
Absolutely.

Yes, it's money, but you're not exchanging the money FOR anything. This might not fit the technical definition of a gift economy, but it is still a gift, an expression of appreciation, not a payment in exchange for goods or services.

I think you're right that there is a difference. I think I have just never fully adjusted to the idea of giving strangers on the internet money. It just feels weird to me!

Thank you for sharing your experiences re: feedback with me! Mine were quite different--going from Buffy to kpop was not much of a shock for me, because even though the circle of writers/readers was smaller in kpop, it was still mostly LJ people who were really heavy commenters. Since I left that fandom behind, I literally had not been in a fandom until I got into The Untamed, which is a completely different beast. But you're right that that could be more about size than about the nature of fandom itself.

And YES re: platforms! I still hold out hope that some kind of platform will slowly gain steam that is more text-based and more fitting for in-depth conversations. But if it does, it will be going against the tide of the entire internet (not just fandom), that's for sure.

I just wish it weren't happening on Discord! I do not like the platform! If we all went back to secret locked-down message boards, I would be 100% fine with that! I don't mind the secrecy of it all (in fact, one of my major beefs with contemporary fandom is how Out There it is). I just specifically can't deal with Discord. But I guess if I wait another ten years, another platform will come along...

as a wise man once almost said, fandom will find a way. :')

Lol! True!

Thank you for sharing! You've given me a lot to think about!

[yourlibrarian]

Also here via vriddy, and wanted to add that many things I thought of seeing after reading the post are things you've mentioned here, such as changes in the number of people involved, the mainstreaming (and also the style and focus of platforms people first engaged with) and the influence of other things happening online which bleed into fandom spaces.

If anything, the move to privacy controls seems a return to me of what LJ had long offered and which DW has improved upon. It's just that a lot of fandom sees this as "new" and haven't learned anything from history.

I'd agree about any sort of tip jar function, which does not seem that different to me from people sponsoring other people's paid accounts, offering them gifts and so on which went on quite a bit in the LJ days. A forced exchange is a different thing.

However my experience with Buffy and SPN are reversed. There was certainly a fair amount of response in both, but I still remember the shock I felt at seeing pages of comments to a number of fics being posted when I first joined the fandom in 2006. Part of it was likely the decline in activity in the Buffyverse compared to the surging activity in SPN. But I found the same was true for my own meta posts as with fics I read.

All of which is to say that there can be such a lot of different experiences even at the same times in the same fandoms.

[theseatheseatheopensea]

Thanks for sharing this post! A lot of what I feel about this is also coming from instinct, so I found it very relatable and thought-provoking.

In my experience, there's always been money involved in fandom spaces in some way, but even so, it used to feel more collaborative and less commercial, I guess? For example: zines were sold, but people who contributed to them got a free copy, and there was always the possibility to trade for them. And apes/videos/magazines/interviews/other fandom things were also sold, but trading for them was also a big thing. And I remember that zines also ran ads for people selling/or wanting to buy fandom stuff, a bit like classified ads?

I remember something similar for original fiction zines--I was quite involved in that scene in the early 2000s, and even when there was money involved, it still felt like a labour of love, and it made sense for the person who printed the zines to ask for money for covering shipping and printing costs, or for a trade if you couldn't pay? In that sense, it felt more like a community.

I also remember seeing people doing art commisions (both online and in conventions, both for fandom stuff and more generic fantasy art, for example), but even those felt less like monetising fandom, and more like an artist sharing their work? I don't remember seeing it for fic, like the ko-fi/patreon/paypal thing these days, but that could be related to the fandom spaces I was in back then? And also because it wasn't that easy to send money online back then... so maybe trades and money orders and etc. were more popular partly because of that?

Like you, I feel that these days, it's all moved to a more monetised thing, from a more collaborative/sharing thing. I could be wrong, but I don't think it's 100% a nostalgia thing... I mean, yes, that may be a part of it ;) but I truly think that these days, fannish engagement looks and feels very different. I think it's partly why I've tried spaces like Tumblr, but they've ended up not being right for me, and I always end up in a journal-shaped space! I realise and accept that fandom is so much bigger and overwhelming now (at least, it is to me, because back then, even a huge fandom like TLOTR or ST felt a bit easier to approach?) so I feel that doing fandom in a place that feels more manageable helps a lot. In a current huge fandom like OFMD, is there fear of missing out? Definitely! But I find it better and healthier for me to be in smaller fandom spaces like DW, where I see slower interactions, as opposed to a faster culture of reblogging and pure consumerism?? And so here I am! <3

And I feel that lurking has always existed, but, even so, fandom (and non-fandom too!) online spaces still felt more interactive. Maybe it's because reblogging didn't really exist before, so if you wanted to engage and connect with what you were seeing, you had to either write a post, or a comment, or a rec, or join a mailing list, or a community on LJ, or a webring, or sign someone's guestbook to say that you liked their fic! XD I feel that reblogging is comfortable and easier for when you want to lurk or don't have energy for more, but if I get to choose, even writing a short DW comment feels nicer and warmer to me, even when I don't want to/can't say much. And lurking on DW feels fine to me too, so I suspect that the place I do fandom in plays a big role for me!

One of the current online spaces that still feels like the old days to me is the bethefirst community--and, not surprisingly, it's a LJ/DW thing! I don't know how to explain it properly, but it has that vibe I love, that's so much about the "two-way interaction" thing you mention!

This comment is all over the place, sorry! XD

[lirazel]

there's always been money involved in fandom spaces in some way, but even so, it used to feel more collaborative and less commercial, I guess? For example: zines were sold, but people who contributed to them got a free copy, and there was always the possibility to trade for them

True! And zines were sold because it took money to print them--much like AO3 needing $ to run the servers. All of that is 100% fine with me because money is not the priority at all.

I was quite involved in that scene in the early 2000s, and even when there was money involved, it still felt like a labour of love, and it made sense for the person who printed the zines to ask for money for covering shipping and printing costs, or for a trade if you couldn't pay? In that sense, it felt more like a community.

Indeed!

I don't think it's 100% a nostalgia thing... I mean, yes, that may be a part of it ;) but I truly think that these days, fannish engagement looks and feels very different.

Same. I know that nostalgia is a factor! I'm not given to it in real life, but I definitely am with fandom, and it's contributing, but I don't think it's the entire story!

The thing is--people don't even reblog anymore! They just like! I see this complaint all the time from gifmakers and people who post links to their fic on Tumblr--nobody is reblogging, only liking.

I don't know how to explain it properly, but it has that vibe I love, that's so much about the "two-way interaction" thing you mention!

I'm so glad you have that community!

No worries--my post was all over the place too!

[duskpeterson]

"I remember something similar for original fiction zines--I was quite involved in that scene in the early 2000s"

Oh, hey, were you? So was I, only it was the originalfic e-zines. Friending you now. :)

[verity]

lots of thoughts here!

- I do actually read meta quite often on twitter! Meta writers are writing long threads now, although that may not be your preferred way to consume it, and there are also a long of meta discussions in the discords I am in. (My friend tshirt, who is my favorite meta writer in cnovel fandom, does actually write essays & has also produced a meta zine. Here's my fave essay of theirs: https://bao3bei4.tumblr.com/post/653569900305154048/fan-language-the-victorian-imaginary-and-cnovel )

- having been involved with a fandom open source federated social media project a few years ago, I think it is unlikely we will see the kind of movement you are talking about. Fandom is simply too large to return to a version of online community that rests on the shoulders of a disproportionately IT-savvy community. Hobby IT doesn’t scale. There have also been changes to the law that make it harder for fandom platforms to host explicit content (FOSTA limiting the CDA 230 carve out, primarily). Fandom is one of many communities grappling with big questions around what digital citizenship and society looks like going forward.

- getting comments in CQL fandom just posting in the tag is hard. Unlike a Yuletide fandom or collection, there’s simply way too much stuff to dive in - I primarily get recs from friends and follow several bookmarkers. While there are many ways to drive more comments, I think it’s also worth considering how ao3 stats and kudos make it way more visible how many lurkers are reading your fic, when the getting the proportion of lurkers required intentional data gathering on LJ.

- the commercialization of fandom has a lot of different factors at play, but one is certainly the OTW’s vigorous defense of fair use law. the gift culture of old school fandom was deeply tied to very legit fear of legal reprisal. I learned about campbell vs acuff rose music and was citing it in fic disclaimers when I was 12 lmaooo, but now we have so much more protection in this regard. I am not wild about commercialization and I don’t like the vibes, but I don’t think it is like some deep corruption of what it means to be in community with each other.

- overall, I like new fandom. I love meeting people of all ages who are completely different fandom generations. last year, I started my little riso zine micropress, and I am making and selling physical fanzines with great enthusiasm. people still like oldschool fandom, too. I even have two occasional pen pals! It is possible to make a world where old and new coexist joyfully.

(sorry for editing this post THREE TIMES while trying to rec tshirt's essays to you)

[lirazel]

Omg, I am in awe of people who will write long-form things on Twitter. It seems like actual hell to me. It's bad enough trying to read it, but it write it? Those people must be dedicated!

Fandom is simply too large to return to a version of online community that rests on the shoulders of a disproportionately IT-savvy community. Hobby IT doesn’t scale.

I think you are unfortunately correct about this.

I think it’s also worth considering how ao3 stats and kudos make it way more visible how many lurkers are reading your fic, when the getting the proportion of lurkers required intentional data gathering on LJ.

This is true too! I just find it fascinating that the fics I post on AO3 for small fandoms outside of exchange time get a much higher proportion of comments per number of hits than when I post to large ones. And of course that's boosted even higher when it is part of an exchange/collection.

he gift culture of old school fandom was deeply tied to very legit fear of legal reprisal. I learned about campbell vs acuff rose music and was citing it in fic disclaimers when I was 12 lmaooo

Lol same!

I am not wild about commercialization and I don’t like the vibes, but I don’t think it is like some deep corruption of what it means to be in community with each other.

I agree with you about this. I think it's fine that other people want to do fandom in a particular way, and I do not want to stop them! I just want to be able to find people who want to do it my way, you know? I am very blessed by my dreamwidth circle of friends, but we don't share any fandom overlap, and I miss that! Whereas the people who are in my fandom all seem to be on platforms that I just cannot deal with. It's disheartening!

[vriddy]

This is such a fascinating post! And really interesting conversations.

I also talked a bit about commercialisation of fandom before, and have a couple more drafts related to the topic. The whole "looking for community" vs "looking for an audience" is something I still struggle to adapt to as well. Returning to Dreamwidth is helping me, I think. Maybe the schism other people mention is something that's slowly happening, or needs to as different people look for different things in fandom.

AO3 is so large - I find many of my readers come from discord friends, posting on a couple of servers. I see people who say they never browse AO3 and will only read if the author promotes their fic on Twitter in the tags. I did it for a while but the platform stresses me out so I decided I was happy with the smaller readership.

But stepping back, I realised how much of the "influencer" culture is steeping in there. People encourage each other to be less shy about self-promoting, and create tweets promoting their stories, and retweeting their own announcements to reach people in different timezones. Even when they're not selling anything or have a ko-fi, etc! I see authors linking to the specific story tweet in the author notes as well so that it's easy for readers to jump to Twitter after finishing and retweet/promote the story to their own followers.

Which is all fine, you know! It's just... it feels like running a business, haha. These are fine strategies to use to increase your "audience" which is important when you need to convert X% into paying customers. People just copy these patterns because they're everywhere these days, with people trying to monetise their hobbies, sometimes out of necessity, sometimes because that's what everybody else seems to be doing.

I want the people who would enjoy my stories to find them, but I don't need to have the biggest audience ever, and a cosy fandom experience with a few people sharing similar tastes suits me better in general. My BNF friends seem to get a lot of draining interactions, with the additional attention.

Would it be okay if I linked to this post in my journal? I think it's very interesting and would like to share.

[lirazel]

I'm glad you're here! :D

Returning to Dreamwidth is helping me, I think.

Gosh, yes. I drifted away for a few years, but I've now been back for three or four, and it's such a good thing in my life! Real conversation with interesting people! I love the shitposts and teasing on Tumblr, but I need this in my life!

I see people who say they never browse AO3 and will only read if the author promotes their fic on Twitter in the tags.

WHAT. Well, I'm screwed then, since I have never had and never will have a Twitter account!

Which is all fine, you know! It's just... it feels like running a business, haha.

YES! I don't want to do that! I am happy to create bookmarks and rec lists and tell all my friends about good fic I read, but I don't want to have to hunt down readers for my own fic!

People just copy these patterns because they're everywhere these days

I think you're correct about this.

and a cosy fandom experience with a few people sharing similar tastes suits me better in general.

Yup! I have found writing for smaller fandoms so rewarding the last few years! In stark contrast to writing for giant fandoms, where I feel like I get lost in the shuffle.

Absolutely--link away! Anything that's publicly posted is fine to link to.

[rekishi]

I get as few comments in big fandoms as in small fandoms. That is, in part, also because I don't necessarily write things people read (too long, too plotty, not enough sex and what sex there is is not in the least kinky or anything else, relationship happens with the plot rather than the plot around the relationship). But I've also stopped writing for an audience a long time ago; basically, these days I write what I want to read and if anyone else likes it that's rad! But...yeah. This is partially born from the fact that, at some point, I ended up figuring out that if I want to read [specific thing], I probably have to do it myself.

All of that being said, I agree with you that I find the monetization of fandom at best problematic and at worst as horrifying as you.

But I also fear we won't get old fandom back and that ship has sailed....and that means those of us still left have to stick together and make our own fun. Since I never made the jump to tumblr and twitter, I think I've been spared from a lot of things happening over there but the fringes are enough to just make me...tired. I'm clinging to the old time friends I have and...well. Hope for the best. Save as many fics as you can that you love and hope astolat will pull the plug on AO3 before allowing monetization or censure.

The good thing about fandom now though is that it's so big that you can absolutely stay out of the wank and the flame wars. That was definitely very different in the late 90s.

[lirazel]

I really wish I could get to that "I'm only writing for me" place, but I have not yet reached it.

But I also fear we won't get old fandom back and that ship has sailed....and that means those of us still left have to stick together and make our own fun.

You are no doubt correct about this.

The good thing about fandom now though is that it's so big that you can absolutely stay out of the wank and the flame wars. That was definitely very different in the late 90s.

True! Even on Tumblr, I hear rumblings of far-off fandom wank, but it never gets anywhere near me. A true blessing!

[bluegreenwhirlywindy]

I was directed to this interesting discussion via vriddy and thought perhaps I could contribute a perspective as someone in a huuuuge fandom who does “just consume content” in many instances? This is just an assortment of random, rambly thoughts, too, though, not meant as a pushback and also in no relation to your situation in the huge fandom given that I don’t even know it. :)

When I read fic, it is indeed not with the primary goal to engage with the author about it afterwards in my mind. I mostly read stories when I either have to pass time (during a commute etc.) or when I’m exhausted, sad or similar as a way to cheer me up; in both situations I usually don’t have the means (either technically or mentally) to finish my reading with leaving a comment on the fic. Added to that are that yes, for the vast majority of fic, I indeed don’t have any thoughts to share, and that I’m a heavy, heavy multishipper with like 98765 pairings I’m interested in and reading for so that I’m in a perpetual state of “catching up” to the amount of fic that has been published. xD I do save fic which are important enough for me that I do want to leave a comment on them no matter what, and am horribly behind on that collection (the phases of “energy so low I can just read fic” vs. “energy high enough that I can write comments on them” are absolutely not distributed evenly XD). Right now I’m still trying to internalise and apply the belief that “a small comment, even if what you want to leave is a 1k-praise and dissection of the story, is better than no comment at all”, but it’s definitely an uphill battle, and of course a simple “I loved sentence XY” doesn’t really lend itself to starting a longer and bigger conversation.

However, I also feel like the norms – or rather lack of norms – around how one should behave in the ao3 comment section play a part as well. I did have absolutely riveting conversations based on ao3 comments (though those admittedly all fizzled out eventually because at some point I just don’t have the time and energy anymore to sit down and write another 3-4 hours long reply, no matter how much I enjoy the conversation). I’ve also had long, detailed comments I’d written that just got a one-line long “I’m very flattered you enjoyed so much haha, thank you” response. Or instances where, when I excitedly replied to a response by an author that told further ideas about their story based on the things I had mentioned in my comment, I just received radio silence. Or the classic of an author just don’t responding to comments at all. And I don’t want to single out any of those authors and tell them they “did fandom wrong” in any way! I think many people satisfy their needs regarding talking about fandom on other platforms like Twitter or Discord (which, totally their right and good that it works for them, though it sucks for those of us who can’t handle these places) these days. But… over time, such experiences regarding comments just add up, making one in turn wary about how and where to spend one’s time and energy (especially if those are really limited goods).

That just as an excursion inspired by your last two paragraphs, haha, hopefully it wasn’t too boring or completely off-topic from what you wanted to get at. ^^° Regarding the discussion in the other comments above, I actually agree with many of the aspects about the change in fandom that occurred/is occurring: Prevalence of Ko-fi/patreon/fic commissions PEW!, Discord/Twitter UGH!, pressure that everyone needs to promote their fics on social media to be ‘successful’ and ‘drive engagement’ YUCK! X’DD Though as others have pointed out before, if everyone can just do fandom the way they want to without being bothered by those who do it differently, everything’s fine and peachy. Where spaces are shared, expectations differ wildly, and it feels like one’s the sore thumb sticking out in a landscape that’s totally different from everything you envision, is when the disappointment starts to happen…

[lirazel]

Hi there! :D

or when I’m exhausted, sad or similar as a way to cheer me up; in both situations I usually don’t have the means (either technically or mentally) to finish my reading with leaving a comment on the fic...the phases of “energy so low I can just read fic” vs. “energy high enough that I can write comments on them” are absolutely not distributed evenly

This is definitely an interesting perspective to me as someone who reads differently.

because at some point I just don’t have the time and energy anymore to sit down and write another 3-4 hours long reply, no matter how much I enjoy the conversation

Oh my gosh! I don't blame you--3-4 hours is SO long!

Right now I’m still trying to internalise and apply the belief that “a small comment, even if what you want to leave is a 1k-praise and dissection of the story, is better than no comment at all”,

Yeah, I'm a big believer in the small-comment-is-better-than-none philosophy, because what I want as a writer is some sort of...acknowledgment that people actually engaged with the fic enough to bother to reply. Kudos just don't do this for me (probably because kudos/likes are a very new invention in the grand scheme of my internet life). Whereas even if someone just says "I enjoyed this story a lot!" I feel like I'm being treated as a person and not a content-provider. I don't want to feel like I'm yelling into the void, and only actual words, no matter how few, from an actual person makes me feel that I'm actually reaching actual people. Does that make sense?

But… over time, such experiences regarding comments just add up, making one in turn wary about how and where to spend one’s time and energy (especially if those are really limited goods).

Yes, I can see this.

I do think that you're right that there aren't really solid norms in place for how to interact on AO3 in the same way that there were on LJ. This is something I'll need to pick apart more.

if everyone can just do fandom the way they want to without being bothered by those who do it differently, everything’s fine and peachy. Where spaces are shared, expectations differ wildly, and it feels like one’s the sore thumb sticking out in a landscape that’s totally different from everything you envision, is when the disappointment starts to happen…

Absolutely!

[sunshine304]

I've seen several posts about this topic on tumblr, often by fans that likely came into fandom when I did (LJ times) or even earlier. The gift economy is getting lost because the younger generation just grew up with these shitty social media sites and The Algorithm. I've actually seen younger fans say that they prefer the algorithm just showing them things instead of looking for them themselves. Like, they actively complain that AO3's algorithm "doesn't work" or that it doesn't have one and why they hate it.

And I just... I can't understand this. I hate the algorithm, that some arbitrary settings on social media sites decide what is worth seeing and what isn't, often not even determined by my likes etc. but just by who payed for it or who seems the most controversial and therefore "interesting", or actively ignoring people clicking on "Don't show me this again" because clicking that is engagement with the content... Like, WTF!

I'm sure that is part of it. They're weird about reblogging, even weirder about interacting with other fans... Back on LJ, you had whole conversations in the comments of fics, but nowadays you can be happy if you're getting comments at all.
And I think I have a good success rate for comments on my fic. But they're not exactly inviting discussion - I mean, ok, I don't want to discuss with a person of bad faith who just wants to troll and be anti, but just details, questions about the fic, you know? I definitely feel your wariness of the future of fandom as antis are getting louder and louder, and young fans want the older ones to cater to their whims because mom at home says they're a princess or whatever.

Perhaps that's also why fanbinding speaks to me, because that is about giving gifts, giving something back to authors who touched you with their works. I of course can't do copies for every fic I'll bind because... I don't have the time and the money (but ohh if I had!), but I have already sent off one gift copy and am working on several more. Perhaps this is the way of older fans to be a bit deviant, IDK.

[lirazel]

I've actually seen younger fans say that they prefer the algorithm just showing them things instead of looking for them themselves. Like, they actively complain that AO3's algorithm "doesn't work" or that it doesn't have one and why they hate it.

*screams forever*

I hate the algorithm, that some arbitrary settings on social media sites decide what is worth seeing and what isn't, often not even determined by my likes etc. but just by who payed for it or who seems the most controversial and therefore "interesting", or actively ignoring people clicking on "Don't show me this again" because clicking that is engagement with the content... Like, WTF!

I SUPER HATE IT!

Aww, I love your thoughts about fanbinding! That's so lovely!

[rhoda_rants]

I was brought here by vriddy!

This is a fascinating discussion, and something that's been on my mind too. I think I'm the same "generation" as you, fandom-wise. Hosted my fanfic in numerous places online: FF.net; various fandom message boards; my own GeoCities page that I learned HTML code for. Later, after the Great Purge, I moved everything to Ao3 and LiveJournal, then from LiveJournal to DW, and here I am.

As far as engagement goes, I am constantly confused by what does and does not get noticed. If it's for a huge fandom, like Doctor Who or Supernatural, you'd think it would be easier for your story to get lost in the mix, but honestly it just depends on so many different factors. Is it a rare pair? Is this fandom currently active? Is it an usual genre? I mostly write horror and sci-fi, and I have definitely seen that the few stories I write that are fluffy or smutty get noticed way more. Except for one story that got the lowest metrics in every category, which was smutty, and in a popular fandom, but not a popular ship. No idea what happened there.

But like, for me "noticed" means a little less than 300 kudos on Ao3. That's my most popular story. And it's for a rare pair (actually an OT3) in a non-active fandom but still popular fandom. However, the one that I still get comments about, even though it's not online anymore, but was fairly popular in a very niche fandom many years ago, is probably my *actual* most popular story. People contact me like, "Wait, did you write [Title Redacted?] I loved that one!" but it's literally nowhere except the Wayback Machine (and backed up on various thumb drives.) Does that count as "engagement?"

Honestly, the type of "engagement" I enjoyed the most was on a story I had come close to giving up on because it wasn't getting any traction at all. I tell myself I don't do it for the 'likes' but it is discouraging. BUT THEN! One person found it months after my last update, wrote these wonderful detailed comments on every chapter as they went, and that inspired me to actually go back and finish it. It only ended up with fifty-some kudos, but that felt like success, having that one person keep showing up for me like that.

As to your comments about Ko-Fi and monetizing everything--that still feels so wrong to me. I don't like the idea of monetizing hobbies to start with.

Actually--you know what it is? The cross-section of monetization and turning everything into a numbers game of "likes" and "kudos" and "clicks" and whatever else? It starts to feel like a competition. I don't like that. It shouldn't be competitive. So many people are absolutely fine reading dozens or even hundreds of stories that are very similar to each other--there's room for everyone. That's why trying to make "Number Go Up" part of it feels gross.

[lirazel]

Hello! :D

Except for one story that got the lowest metrics in every category, which was smutty, and in a popular fandom, but not a popular ship. No idea what happened there.

That must have been so frustrating! I hate when I can't figure out why something bombed!

However, the one that I still get comments about, even though it's not online anymore, but was fairly popular in a very niche fandom many years ago, is probably my *actual* most popular story. People contact me like, "Wait, did you write [Title Redacted?] I loved that one!" but it's literally nowhere except the Wayback Machine (and backed up on various thumb drives.) Does that count as "engagement?"

I think it totally does count and I love this! Your fic has stuck in people's memories!!!

One person found it months after my last update, wrote these wonderful detailed comments on every chapter as they went, and that inspired me to actually go back and finish it. It only ended up with fifty-some kudos, but that felt like success, having that one person keep showing up for me like that.

Yes! Just one person who figures out a way to indicate that they actually care matters so so much!

The cross-section of monetization and turning everything into a numbers game of "likes" and "kudos" and "clicks" and whatever else? It starts to feel like a competition. I don't like that. It shouldn't be competitive.

Totally, totally agreed. I am not a competitive person at all, and one thing I've always loved about fandom is that there's room for everyone (theoretically--I know that sometimes fans are jerks, but that's true of any community).

[cesy]

Here from vriddy, thanks for musing about this. I found the discussion interesting, don't have much to add but figured a short comment would still be okay given what's been said :)

[lirazel]

:D A short comment is always great! I'm glad you enjoyed the discussion!

[osteophage]

Hey there, I found this post via an RSS feed for the fandomrandomfandom links blog. It's been noted before how there seems to be less room or space for discussion/metacommentary these days -- see A Space for Meta (found here).

Are people using ko-fi for fandom things besides fanart? This would be news to me.

[lirazel]

I see a lot of writers using it these days, too.

[mxcatmoon]

Here via vriddy. I've been following (and loving!) this discussion, and I'm with you about how fandom interaction has changed. Once in a while I will visit Tumblr or Twitter, if there's a link to a post there that interests me. There will be a Tumblr post, long and well-thought-out... and of course, being Tumbler there is no discussion, just a bunch of likes and reblogs. And I find it hard to understand why anyone would take the time to write an in-depth article about an interesting topic and not want anyone to discuss it. But I assume that's exactly the case - they're only interested in how many likes and reblogs they get. It's a weird world these days... And I guess it's only going to get worse (until the collapse of civilization anyway).

[lirazel]

Hi! :D

And I find it hard to understand why anyone would take the time to write an in-depth article about an interesting topic and not want anyone to discuss it.

Yeah. There does end up being some discussion on Tumblr--someone will reblog a meta and add some more thoughts--but it's just absolutely not the same amount or quality that you see on platforms like DW.

[glitteryv]

Okay, so I'm gonna pre-emptively say this (long) comment will probably be that gentle pushback you mentioned at the beginning. Full disclosure: My entry to fandom was during the early 90s (so webrings, Geocities, etc). I spent the first 20 (!) or so years diving in Western media fandoms. Since then, Kpop has become my primary fandom alongside other Asian media. My main platform is twitter.

FWIW, I do feel that your sense of dissonance is valid. Especially as the Youth (TM) are trying to establish their own set of rules for Fandom. Whether or not those rules make sense is up for debate.

Part of it is sensing the actual!passage of time. I certainly remember, frex, when ppl were kinda wary abt Tumblr after spending so much time on journaling platforms. As well as the most recent semi-generalized move to Discord and Tiktok.

There's also a combination of factors:

1. The rise and plateauing/semi-fall of Influencer or, better said, Hustler culture.

I remember seeing a lot of talk some 10-15 yrs ago abt how everyone could monetize their hobbies if they wanted some extra scratch. There's also the gray line of how commissions have existed since forever--though more particularly (per what I've seen) in fanart circles.

2. The Youth (TM)

Meaning both those who are young in age as well as those who are new to Fandom. The bulk of those folks (per my observations) have grown/existed during the peak of the Hustle culture. So it makes sense that they're more comfortable with the idea of using Ko-fis and other commission-based protocols.

It bears mentioning that many of them came into Fandom via so many different platforms (Insta, Facebook, Tiktok, etc) that also have their own culture. It is what it is.

3. The sad reality of economic hardships

Which have only grown harsher since Pandemic Year 1. The even grimmer reality is that most of those Ko-fis et all set-ups don't make enough to pay a utility bill at the end of the month.

Personally, I don't mind the Ko-fis, Patreons, and commissions stuff since none of it is compulsory. And, like, even if one or ten or even 100 ppl lock their fanworks behind some kind of paywall, I still have a lot of other fancreators whose fanworks I can enjoy for free.

That said, I do find it LOLARIOUS (if only because I don't want to stress out too much abt this) whenever I see someone freaking out while "establishing their brand" or bitching abt the non-existent AO3 algorithm. Hopefully, they'll find their way out of that way of thinking.

I'm gonna be a bit bold (maybe?) and say that the fandom gift economy continues to be what it always has been. There are plenty of exchanges around, for one thing. Also, I see a lot of fanartists creating stuff for others at the reasonable price of free ninety-nine.

Re getting fewer comments: I srsly cannot relate, hahah. Have always been a NNF. My only worry is if I'm creating something for someone in an exchange and the person never comments (even if it's to drop a simple "thank you".) ETA: I do get comments and kudos (so it's not as if this comment is accompanied by a tiny 🎻.) But I'm also not someone who is popular in Fandom in any way. FTR, I do leave comments on stuff (both new and old) if I really liked it or it moved/touched my heart. I don't ever expect the author to reply, but it's nice when that happens.

(Here via commoncomitatus)

[lirazel]

Especially as the Youth (TM) are trying to establish their own set of rules for Fandom. Whether or not those rules make sense is up for debate.

True! And a lot of our rules probably didn't make sense either! Most of them are not thought-through but simply arise over time.

There's also the gray line of how commissions have existed since forever--though more particularly (per what I've seen) in fanart circles.

I wish someone would write a study about how the commission has moved beyond fanart circles, because I'm seeing it more and more in fanfic and such.

It bears mentioning that many of them came into Fandom via so many different platforms (Insta, Facebook, Tiktok, etc) that also have their own culture.

Very true!

Personally, I don't mind the Ko-fis, Patreons, and commissions stuff since none of it is compulsory. And, like, even if one or ten or even 100 ppl lock their fanworks behind some kind of paywall, I still have a lot of other fancreators whose fanworks I can enjoy for free.

A good point, and I don't bear any ill will towards specific people who do this--I just have a feeling of unease about it as a trend.

I'm gonna be a bit bold (maybe?) and say that the fandom gift economy continues to be what it always has been. There are plenty of exchanges around, for one thing. Also, I see a lot of fanartists creating stuff for others at the reasonable price of free ninety-nine.

It's still the primary system, for sure!

My only worry is if I'm creating something for someone in an exchange and the person never comments (even if it's to drop a simple "thank you".)

Yes, that would bother me a lot too.

Thank you for stopping by and sharing your thoughts!

[paulamcg]

Thank you for this discussion! I've enjoyed reading all the comments, and it's been wonderful to see that I'm not alone missing the kind of fandom experience we had before the culture of “consuming content”. I entered fandom on a small forum in 2003, and I loved meaningful interaction with fellow writers on LJ, too. Having returned (to my single fandom, which is a huge one: HP) from an eight-year hiatus in 2019, I've struggled to find community – and been unable and unwilling to make a marketing plan instead :) I made DW my main journal and thought I'd both gain readers and make friends also by commenting on AO3.

Funnily enough, I saw a link to your DW post on (consistensquash's) Tumblr – when I caught myself taking a look even though I'd decided to give up after for a few months trying to do fandom on that platform. Discord channels, too, have turned out too fast-paced for me, and my time zone is a problem as well. A month ago I actually accepted failure and felt it made no sense to go on writing fic.

You've given me some hope that there's still a chance for two-way interaction on the journals – and made me want to offer this meagre contribution. (I was startled to realise that influence from Tumblr first almost made me wish for simple like and reblog options – oh no!)

[lirazel]

Having returned (to my single fandom, which is a huge one: HP) from an eight-year hiatus in 2019, I've struggled to find community – and been unable and unwilling to make a marketing plan instead

Oh wow! That must have been a really shocking experience!

I had no idea a link has made it to Tumblr--that's so funny!

You've given me some hope that there's still a chance for two-way interaction on the journals – and made me want to offer this meagre contribution.

I'm so glad! I treasure my DW community so very much!

[hollowhearts]

This is a great post and a problem that I think a lot about too - I think people getting used to likes and reblogs (& whisper tags) as the default form of fandom interaction has contributed a lot to the decrease in publicly visible comments, meta, and fannish conversation.

But part of the problem is that Tumblr became the fandom platform for a long time and it lacked any sort of commenting system aside from non threaded replies and adding to a post via reblog, which is a lot different than leaving a comment that's contained within the post. You CAN have some really interesting discussions that way, but it's also easy for those discussions to float off into areas of the site they weren't intended to be, and that pushes some people who may otherwise have wanted to contribute into just leaving a like or not interacting at all. Then everyone moved to Twitter, which does technically have post threads but the character limit makes it difficult to have in-depth conversations, and has the same issue of posts being able to leave your orbit.

So I think we're dealing with a combination of the community at large being trained out of earnest participation by platforms that didn't offer an LJ/DW-comparable commenting functionality or didn't offer it in a safe way, and the fact that commenting and meta writing are learned skills that have atrophied in many of us due to being trained out of them, and thus they aren't being taught to fandom newcomers. Both are also things that require you to both sit and think, and be vulnerable and honest when sharing your thoughts, and that's an increasingly difficult ask nowadays.

I share your worry about further changes in fandom too, because I don't see anything on the horizon right now that's likely to improve the situation and the decline in two way communication has already been really damaging for fandom as we knew it. Fandom based on consumption of content instead of bonding with like minded individuals and celebrating shared interests breeds more superficial interaction and rewards reactionary thinking over analytical thought. But when one of those models is also low effort and high reward, it's sad but unsurprising that it's what's largely taken over.

I've spent the past 5 years feeling largely unwelcome in existing fandom spaces, hoping and praying for a viable platform to pop up that'll give us all a safe new rock to hide under. But with fandom being "mainstream" now it's hard to imagine a site able to support the demand and needs of modern fandom that isn't being run by a company with Company Interests, and that just breeds more of the same problems we're already dealing with. It's a really difficult problem, and I don't know what the right answer is.

[lirazel]

So I think we're dealing with a combination of the community at large being trained out of earnest participation by platforms that didn't offer an LJ/DW-comparable commenting functionality or didn't offer it in a safe way, and the fact that commenting and meta writing are learned skills that have atrophied in many of us due to being trained out of them, and thus they aren't being taught to fandom newcomers. Both are also things that require you to both sit and think, and be vulnerable and honest when sharing your thoughts, and that's an increasingly difficult ask nowadays.

I think you are correct about this! And well said!

Fandom based on consumption of content instead of bonding with like minded individuals and celebrating shared interests breeds more superficial interaction and rewards reactionary thinking over analytical thought. But when one of those models is also low effort and high reward, it's sad but unsurprising that it's what's largely taken over.

Absolutely.

I've spent the past 5 years feeling largely unwelcome in existing fandom spaces

When you say "unwelcome," do you mean that fandom just isn't providing what you want it to or is there something more hostile going on in your opinion?

[desdemonaspace]

She's ... looking for blue state small cities outside of the south and away from coasts that are environmentally friendly.

Duluth or Mankato. Both in Minnesota. I'd move to one or the other but I'm all moved out.

Re: fandom - I wish someone would read my new (very short!) story. I posted about it and asked nicely. Not one person read it. But I'll read others' looooong, multi-story series, but am I read. Hell no.

[lirazel]

I wish someone would read my new (very short!) story. I posted about it and asked nicely. Not one person read it. But I'll read others' looooong, multi-story series, but am I read. Hell no.

Yeah, that really does suck, to feel excluded in that way.

[duskpeterson]

I think the gift economy is the most fabulous thing ever invented. I practically wept when I discovered the fan fiction community in 2002. I had recently become visually impaired, I had practically no access to e-books, and here were millions of writers who were offering their stories for free!

That said, if there was ever a time when fandom was entirely free of commercialism, it was before my time. The first time I ever visited a dealer's room at a slash con, in 2002, it was filled to the brim with fanworks being sold: zines, vids, art, and all sorts of products like buttons and clothing.

How many of these fanworks were being sold at cost, without profit? I don't know. But I suspect that creating fanworks for fun and creating fanworks for profit wasn't considered to be entirely incompatible by some of the folks there.

Speaking as an originalfic writer, I saw originalfic being commercialized in the early 00s. So I agree with verity that, if it hadn't been for legal reasons, fanworks would probably have been commercialized before now.

(While we're totting up motives for commercializing fanworks, I hope we won't forget financial need. I've heard that this can be a big motive in the case of some marginalized fanfic writers.)

[lirazel]

Aww, I love your story! I'm so glad you found fandom at just the right time for you!

The first time I ever visited a dealer's room at a slash con, in 2002, it was filled to the brim with fanworks being sold: zines, vids, art, and all sorts of products like buttons and clothing.

See, I think this is another thing--I've never been in meatspace fannish spaces (except for meeting up with fannish friends a couple of times). I've never been to cons or anything like that. So the commercialization just wasn't there in my (exclusively online) experience.

So I agree with [personal profile] verity that, if it hadn't been for legal reasons, fanworks would probably have been commercialized before now.

I agree. I think the gift culture thing arose mostly because of legal fears.

While we're totting up motives for commercializing fanworks, I hope we won't forget financial need. I've heard that this can be a big motive in the case of some marginalized fanfic writers

Yeah, a few of us talked about that somewhere upthread. My own (very unrealistic) feelings are that we should work hard to unionize and get people paying living-wage jobs so that they have time to create fanworks for fun, but in the meantime, I realize that's not an answer to immediate need.