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Warning: these thoughts are very preliminary and more coming from a place of instinct than well-formed thought. I am happy for anyone to push back against anything I say provided you do it respectfully.
Hannah and I were talking yesterday (in a very un-nuanced way) about how weird it is that within fandom circles, there are fewer and fewer people willing to engage in commenting/meta-writing/actual fannish conversation (or hell, even reblogging of art on Tumblr), but more and more people who think nothing of paying for online stuff? I am shocked that this ko-fi thing has taken off--I guess I'm old school enough that the thought of monetizing fandom is horrifying to me.
I mean, I guess there's an entire cohort of people who never used the internet before Facebook introduced the like button and so don't know the joy of full-on fannish engagement. And those same people are accepting the commodification of...everything.
It's just really, really weird to see. I know there was a gap in culture between the pre-internet 'zine-and-conventions fans and then the very first fans who were using the internet before the world wide web and then again my generation who started using it in the late 90s and came up on message boards and mailing lists and such. But the gap between those earlier generation of fans (and by generation, I'm very much talking about "when you got involved in fandom," not what age you are) and the current one seems like a chasm. I just don't recognize how they do fandom, and I am actually pretty sad that none of them seem to want to do it the way we do it (only, you know, with greater diversity, etc. I'm not pretending like the internet in 2001 was perfect. It was much whiter and richer, and lots of things about accessibility have changed for the better since then).
I've just always really loved that fandom is a gift economy and that the gifts go both ways. That I write fic because I want to share it with y'all, and y'all respond and engage with it, and we all have a great time together. A "content"-based view of fandom where you just ~consume~ is just so repugnant to me and I don't want anything to do with it, and I know we're not going back to a livejournal kind of fannish experience, but I'm just...really not looking forward to further changes in fandom. I don't see good developments coming down the road, and I can't figure out if this is me being all Old Man Yells at Clouds or if I'm right and things just aren't as fun anymore.
And yes, this is partially about me getting fewer comments when I write fic for a huge fandom than when I write for a Yuletide-sized fandom, but also it's about a general feeling that people just don't view fandom (or even the whole internet) as a place of two-way interaction anymore.
Hannah and I were talking yesterday (in a very un-nuanced way) about how weird it is that within fandom circles, there are fewer and fewer people willing to engage in commenting/meta-writing/actual fannish conversation (or hell, even reblogging of art on Tumblr), but more and more people who think nothing of paying for online stuff? I am shocked that this ko-fi thing has taken off--I guess I'm old school enough that the thought of monetizing fandom is horrifying to me.
I mean, I guess there's an entire cohort of people who never used the internet before Facebook introduced the like button and so don't know the joy of full-on fannish engagement. And those same people are accepting the commodification of...everything.
It's just really, really weird to see. I know there was a gap in culture between the pre-internet 'zine-and-conventions fans and then the very first fans who were using the internet before the world wide web and then again my generation who started using it in the late 90s and came up on message boards and mailing lists and such. But the gap between those earlier generation of fans (and by generation, I'm very much talking about "when you got involved in fandom," not what age you are) and the current one seems like a chasm. I just don't recognize how they do fandom, and I am actually pretty sad that none of them seem to want to do it the way we do it (only, you know, with greater diversity, etc. I'm not pretending like the internet in 2001 was perfect. It was much whiter and richer, and lots of things about accessibility have changed for the better since then).
I've just always really loved that fandom is a gift economy and that the gifts go both ways. That I write fic because I want to share it with y'all, and y'all respond and engage with it, and we all have a great time together. A "content"-based view of fandom where you just ~consume~ is just so repugnant to me and I don't want anything to do with it, and I know we're not going back to a livejournal kind of fannish experience, but I'm just...really not looking forward to further changes in fandom. I don't see good developments coming down the road, and I can't figure out if this is me being all Old Man Yells at Clouds or if I'm right and things just aren't as fun anymore.
And yes, this is partially about me getting fewer comments when I write fic for a huge fandom than when I write for a Yuletide-sized fandom, but also it's about a general feeling that people just don't view fandom (or even the whole internet) as a place of two-way interaction anymore.
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This is a fascinating discussion, and something that's been on my mind too. I think I'm the same "generation" as you, fandom-wise. Hosted my fanfic in numerous places online: FF.net; various fandom message boards; my own GeoCities page that I learned HTML code for. Later, after the Great Purge, I moved everything to Ao3 and LiveJournal, then from LiveJournal to DW, and here I am.
As far as engagement goes, I am constantly confused by what does and does not get noticed. If it's for a huge fandom, like Doctor Who or Supernatural, you'd think it would be easier for your story to get lost in the mix, but honestly it just depends on so many different factors. Is it a rare pair? Is this fandom currently active? Is it an usual genre? I mostly write horror and sci-fi, and I have definitely seen that the few stories I write that are fluffy or smutty get noticed way more. Except for one story that got the lowest metrics in every category, which was smutty, and in a popular fandom, but not a popular ship. No idea what happened there.
But like, for me "noticed" means a little less than 300 kudos on Ao3. That's my most popular story. And it's for a rare pair (actually an OT3) in a non-active fandom but still popular fandom. However, the one that I still get comments about, even though it's not online anymore, but was fairly popular in a very niche fandom many years ago, is probably my *actual* most popular story. People contact me like, "Wait, did you write [Title Redacted?] I loved that one!" but it's literally nowhere except the Wayback Machine (and backed up on various thumb drives.) Does that count as "engagement?"
Honestly, the type of "engagement" I enjoyed the most was on a story I had come close to giving up on because it wasn't getting any traction at all. I tell myself I don't do it for the 'likes' but it is discouraging. BUT THEN! One person found it months after my last update, wrote these wonderful detailed comments on every chapter as they went, and that inspired me to actually go back and finish it. It only ended up with fifty-some kudos, but that felt like success, having that one person keep showing up for me like that.
As to your comments about Ko-Fi and monetizing everything--that still feels so wrong to me. I don't like the idea of monetizing hobbies to start with.
Actually--you know what it is? The cross-section of monetization and turning everything into a numbers game of "likes" and "kudos" and "clicks" and whatever else? It starts to feel like a competition. I don't like that. It shouldn't be competitive. So many people are absolutely fine reading dozens or even hundreds of stories that are very similar to each other--there's room for everyone. That's why trying to make "Number Go Up" part of it feels gross.
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Except for one story that got the lowest metrics in every category, which was smutty, and in a popular fandom, but not a popular ship. No idea what happened there.
That must have been so frustrating! I hate when I can't figure out why something bombed!
However, the one that I still get comments about, even though it's not online anymore, but was fairly popular in a very niche fandom many years ago, is probably my *actual* most popular story. People contact me like, "Wait, did you write [Title Redacted?] I loved that one!" but it's literally nowhere except the Wayback Machine (and backed up on various thumb drives.) Does that count as "engagement?"
I think it totally does count and I love this! Your fic has stuck in people's memories!!!
One person found it months after my last update, wrote these wonderful detailed comments on every chapter as they went, and that inspired me to actually go back and finish it. It only ended up with fifty-some kudos, but that felt like success, having that one person keep showing up for me like that.
Yes! Just one person who figures out a way to indicate that they actually care matters so so much!
The cross-section of monetization and turning everything into a numbers game of "likes" and "kudos" and "clicks" and whatever else? It starts to feel like a competition. I don't like that. It shouldn't be competitive.
Totally, totally agreed. I am not a competitive person at all, and one thing I've always loved about fandom is that there's room for everyone (theoretically--I know that sometimes fans are jerks, but that's true of any community).
no subject
It truly is unpredictable, which is one of the reasons it's so fascinating! I think for that one story, just being in a niche fandom like that, where it's already a smaller pool than usual, and then being a somewhat recognizable writer IN that fandom, helped a lot. I don't hang out there anymore, but it was fun while it lasted!
And you're absolutely right that having just one person who you know will be there and encourage you can make it all seem worth it. Because it does take a lot of time and effort. More than people realize.