lirazel | (no subject)

Entry tags:

(no subject)

Warning: these thoughts are very preliminary and more coming from a place of instinct than well-formed thought. I am happy for anyone to push back against anything I say provided you do it respectfully.

Hannah and I were talking yesterday (in a very un-nuanced way) about how weird it is that within fandom circles, there are fewer and fewer people willing to engage in commenting/meta-writing/actual fannish conversation (or hell, even reblogging of art on Tumblr), but more and more people who think nothing of paying for online stuff? I am shocked that this ko-fi thing has taken off--I guess I'm old school enough that the thought of monetizing fandom is horrifying to me.

I mean, I guess there's an entire cohort of people who never used the internet before Facebook introduced the like button and so don't know the joy of full-on fannish engagement. And those same people are accepting the commodification of...everything.

It's just really, really weird to see. I know there was a gap in culture between the pre-internet 'zine-and-conventions fans and then the very first fans who were using the internet before the world wide web and then again my generation who started using it in the late 90s and came up on message boards and mailing lists and such. But the gap between those earlier generation of fans (and by generation, I'm very much talking about "when you got involved in fandom," not what age you are) and the current one seems like a chasm. I just don't recognize how they do fandom, and I am actually pretty sad that none of them seem to want to do it the way we do it (only, you know, with greater diversity, etc. I'm not pretending like the internet in 2001 was perfect. It was much whiter and richer, and lots of things about accessibility have changed for the better since then).

I've just always really loved that fandom is a gift economy and that the gifts go both ways. That I write fic because I want to share it with y'all, and y'all respond and engage with it, and we all have a great time together. A "content"-based view of fandom where you just ~consume~ is just so repugnant to me and I don't want anything to do with it, and I know we're not going back to a livejournal kind of fannish experience, but I'm just...really not looking forward to further changes in fandom. I don't see good developments coming down the road, and I can't figure out if this is me being all Old Man Yells at Clouds or if I'm right and things just aren't as fun anymore.

And yes, this is partially about me getting fewer comments when I write fic for a huge fandom than when I write for a Yuletide-sized fandom, but also it's about a general feeling that people just don't view fandom (or even the whole internet) as a place of two-way interaction anymore.

Flat | Top-Level Comments Only

I was directed to this interesting discussion via vriddy and thought perhaps I could contribute a perspective as someone in a huuuuge fandom who does “just consume content” in many instances? This is just an assortment of random, rambly thoughts, too, though, not meant as a pushback and also in no relation to your situation in the huge fandom given that I don’t even know it. :)

When I read fic, it is indeed not with the primary goal to engage with the author about it afterwards in my mind. I mostly read stories when I either have to pass time (during a commute etc.) or when I’m exhausted, sad or similar as a way to cheer me up; in both situations I usually don’t have the means (either technically or mentally) to finish my reading with leaving a comment on the fic. Added to that are that yes, for the vast majority of fic, I indeed don’t have any thoughts to share, and that I’m a heavy, heavy multishipper with like 98765 pairings I’m interested in and reading for so that I’m in a perpetual state of “catching up” to the amount of fic that has been published. xD I do save fic which are important enough for me that I do want to leave a comment on them no matter what, and am horribly behind on that collection (the phases of “energy so low I can just read fic” vs. “energy high enough that I can write comments on them” are absolutely not distributed evenly XD). Right now I’m still trying to internalise and apply the belief that “a small comment, even if what you want to leave is a 1k-praise and dissection of the story, is better than no comment at all”, but it’s definitely an uphill battle, and of course a simple “I loved sentence XY” doesn’t really lend itself to starting a longer and bigger conversation.

However, I also feel like the norms – or rather lack of norms – around how one should behave in the ao3 comment section play a part as well. I did have absolutely riveting conversations based on ao3 comments (though those admittedly all fizzled out eventually because at some point I just don’t have the time and energy anymore to sit down and write another 3-4 hours long reply, no matter how much I enjoy the conversation). I’ve also had long, detailed comments I’d written that just got a one-line long “I’m very flattered you enjoyed so much haha, thank you” response. Or instances where, when I excitedly replied to a response by an author that told further ideas about their story based on the things I had mentioned in my comment, I just received radio silence. Or the classic of an author just don’t responding to comments at all. And I don’t want to single out any of those authors and tell them they “did fandom wrong” in any way! I think many people satisfy their needs regarding talking about fandom on other platforms like Twitter or Discord (which, totally their right and good that it works for them, though it sucks for those of us who can’t handle these places) these days. But… over time, such experiences regarding comments just add up, making one in turn wary about how and where to spend one’s time and energy (especially if those are really limited goods).

That just as an excursion inspired by your last two paragraphs, haha, hopefully it wasn’t too boring or completely off-topic from what you wanted to get at. ^^° Regarding the discussion in the other comments above, I actually agree with many of the aspects about the change in fandom that occurred/is occurring: Prevalence of Ko-fi/patreon/fic commissions PEW!, Discord/Twitter UGH!, pressure that everyone needs to promote their fics on social media to be ‘successful’ and ‘drive engagement’ YUCK! X’DD Though as others have pointed out before, if everyone can just do fandom the way they want to without being bothered by those who do it differently, everything’s fine and peachy. Where spaces are shared, expectations differ wildly, and it feels like one’s the sore thumb sticking out in a landscape that’s totally different from everything you envision, is when the disappointment starts to happen…

Hi there! :D

or when I’m exhausted, sad or similar as a way to cheer me up; in both situations I usually don’t have the means (either technically or mentally) to finish my reading with leaving a comment on the fic...the phases of “energy so low I can just read fic” vs. “energy high enough that I can write comments on them” are absolutely not distributed evenly

This is definitely an interesting perspective to me as someone who reads differently.

because at some point I just don’t have the time and energy anymore to sit down and write another 3-4 hours long reply, no matter how much I enjoy the conversation

Oh my gosh! I don't blame you--3-4 hours is SO long!

Right now I’m still trying to internalise and apply the belief that “a small comment, even if what you want to leave is a 1k-praise and dissection of the story, is better than no comment at all”,

Yeah, I'm a big believer in the small-comment-is-better-than-none philosophy, because what I want as a writer is some sort of...acknowledgment that people actually engaged with the fic enough to bother to reply. Kudos just don't do this for me (probably because kudos/likes are a very new invention in the grand scheme of my internet life). Whereas even if someone just says "I enjoyed this story a lot!" I feel like I'm being treated as a person and not a content-provider. I don't want to feel like I'm yelling into the void, and only actual words, no matter how few, from an actual person makes me feel that I'm actually reaching actual people. Does that make sense?

But… over time, such experiences regarding comments just add up, making one in turn wary about how and where to spend one’s time and energy (especially if those are really limited goods).

Yes, I can see this.

I do think that you're right that there aren't really solid norms in place for how to interact on AO3 in the same way that there were on LJ. This is something I'll need to pick apart more.

if everyone can just do fandom the way they want to without being bothered by those who do it differently, everything’s fine and peachy. Where spaces are shared, expectations differ wildly, and it feels like one’s the sore thumb sticking out in a landscape that’s totally different from everything you envision, is when the disappointment starts to happen…

Absolutely!

I do think that you're right that there aren't really solid norms in place for how to interact on AO3 in the same way that there were on LJ. This is something I'll need to pick apart more.

On this front, I think a lot of this is due to ao3 ending up as a single fandom hub, because you have a metric fuckton of different communities in one space, and the site, on a code level, was biased towards certain communities from the start (I don't think intentionally - the founders built something that fit *their* fandom community). You see it the most in stuff around tagging - all the issues with synned tags in the Minecraft Youtuber community, or debates about whether you should tag a background ship (so people can avoid NOTPs) or not (so people looking for that ship can actually find content that features it. But comment culture plays into that too. I'm friends with a moderately popular writer who's been writing in various fandoms for twenty-plus years now, and some of the things people say in comments on ao3 are... wild. Like 'why would you think that's an okay thing to say to a stranger'-wild.

Yeah, I think you're dead on about this.

and some of the things people say in comments on ao3 are... wild. Like 'why would you think that's an okay thing to say to a stranger'-wild.

I KNOW. I haven't had that experience myself--just a few mildly weird comments now and then--but I follow a very established writer on Tumblr who sometimes shares some of the things people say in AO3 comments and I cannot believe people are saying that shit.

Like, weird comments were definitely still a thing in the past (memories of someone mad I made a single reference to a character being bi in what was otherwise a het RE4 fic on LJ), but I feel like it's gotten worse lately.

Agreed!

Haha, I'm glad I was actually able to provide another perspective on the "consumption of fandom content". xD Not that I think I have a monopoly on the Only True Way To Read Fanfiction (tm) though, so how transferable my explanations might be to other people and why they do fandom the way they do it or not is questionable... ^^

The 3-4 hours were definitely at the upper end of the messages answering time spectrum. ^^ And they came about because the conversation had expanded to such a degree, because both parties were enjoying the exchange (plus the fact that I am just a slow writer when it comes to responding to other people's words for some reason). So I definitely don't regret them but rather just the world continuing to move while the conversation took place and lives being more and less busy at certain time points and new priorities arising and all such things leading to the necessity of dropping conversations even if they're enjoyable. ^^

Your thoughts on receiving a comment vs. receiving a kudos make sense, in a way that I have heard similar sentiments from a bunch of other writers. At the same time - I have to admit that I personally always held some confusion about it. X'D If you want to humour me because I'm curious: Does the "only actual words, no matter how few" really also apply to someone who posts a comment consisting of "Kudos!" under your story? Or the very same "I enjoyed this story a lot!" you mentioned under each of your stories (and perhaps even in only a matter of only an hour/day)? Because comments that can easily copy-pasted like this have always felt exactly like kudos to me. They give just the exact same information after all - a "great story" or "I liked it" or "you did great" or however exactly one wants to translate a kudos/like. So I could never understand why they appear to have such a much higher value for many authors. ^^° (Which is why I set the aspiration for me personally to mention at least one thing about the specific story I read and comment on in each of my comments I write, even if it's just a simple "'This is a sentence from the story' - I died lol XD" or similar.)

Also, you definitely don't have to feel obliged to answer, but since you mentioned the "solid norms to interact on LJ" and I was never on LJ, I'm also curious whether you could give an impression about what you're referring to? Were these norms really solid as in website-rules, or at least rules of different comms that were actively enforced by moderators? Or are you referring to something different?

(I don't want to end my response with a question because that sounds more demanding for an answer than I intend it to be but uuuhhhh how to nicely and effectively end posts, I feel like I'm out of practise ORZ)

Does the "only actual words, no matter how few" really also apply to someone who posts a comment consisting of "Kudos!" under your story? Or the very same "I enjoyed this story a lot!" you mentioned under each of your stories (and perhaps even in only a matter of only an hour/day)?

I'd say there's a spectrum? So it goes kudos ---> only emojis ---> "I enjoyed this." ---> "Wow, this made me cry!" ---> all the more detailed/specific comments. I still appreciate an "I enjoyed this" more than a kudos, because someone took the actual time to type it. Knowing that they cared enough to do that makes a difference to me.

Otoh, some of the best comments I get are not very long, they just express emotion. Like this comment is quite short--three very short sentences. But it filled up my heart to bursting! That one comment made writing the whole thing worth it. I want to know that I made a reader feel something, that they connected with what I was doing. If they can convey that, no matter how few words they use, then I am thrilled.

Were these norms really solid as in website-rules, or at least rules of different comms that were actively enforced by moderators? Or are you referring to something different?

Well, there was some intense moderation on some comms, especially in fandoms that were prone to wank or ship wars. But mostly I just mean...people knew that they could enter a publicly-posted community conversation and join in, as long as they weren't jerks. I'm sure there were lots of lurkers (there always are), but if you had something to say, you could just say it without worrying that you were invading someone else's space, because the comms were designed to be for anyone who wanted to join them. (Or they were set to private, in which case you knew you weren't welcome.)

There were also a lot of the unspoken norms that are maintained here on DW--most people usually tell you how they found your journal entry if it's in your personal journal--not that they have to, just a lot of people know that that's polite. Or they drop you a line when they follow you so you'll have some idea why they decided to follow you. All that stuff is absolutely not required, but it's very different than, say, Tumblr--you just don't see people sending Tumblr messages saying, "I found your post via ___ and your blog looks great and I'm going to follow you!" There's just a difference between a friending culture (DW/LJ) and a follow culture (Tumblr/Twitter/etc.).

Flat | Top-Level Comments Only