Everything goes back to Buffy and Spike...

[lirazel]

The awesome, awesome rebcake and petzipellepingo started a fascinating Spuffy-related conversation in my Dollhouse reaction post. I'm sure not all of you have read it, but I know there are some of you who would be majorly interested, so keep reading for some insights.


Here's how it starts:

rebcake says: Am I the only one watching Echo lose it over Paul and thinking here is the missing scene of Buffy after Spike's (supposed) demise? *whimpers*

petzipellepingo adds: Nope, the whole speech was classic Buffy - especially the "I am always left alone" part and all the regrets for what she never said.
Plus, Ballard was called "Big Bad" Ballard. Joss left a bigger trail of breadcrumbs than Hansel and Gretel over the two of them being surrogates for Spike and Buffy.

ohwaluvusbab then mentions the conversation between Echo and Paul: "I've been knocking 10 years, you've never let me in"/"I've let you in a few times" exchange."

Which of course makes me think of "I seem to recall a certain amount of connecting."/"Oh, please. We were never close." (An interesting inversion there though we both agree that Buffy's totally lying. ;))

And ohwaluvusbab says: Huh. I wouldn't have likened Paul/Echo to S/B of all pairings...

To which petzipellepingo replies: Nor would I until this episode, when suddenly Echo went all Buffy over Spike's Ballards death.
I don't know what got into Joss.

Which made me giggle.

So. Even though I don't really like the Echo/Paul relationship because A) it started out deeply creepy (well, kinda like Buffy and Spike), B) we never got to see the creepy character (Paul) transform, and C) we were supposed to just take the writers' word for it that this was some epic love when we never had any reason to believe it (my high school English teacher is chanting in the back of my head: "Show, don't tell; show, don't tell; show, don't tell.")--despite all that, I think it's a really interesting comparison.

Here's Echo's breakdown, and OMG YES, I can see this being Buffy's breakdown post-"Chosen."

Kill it. Shut it down. Lock him out. Give him nothing. You can string him along for years. You've had years together, and what did you do? Waste it. Never tell him that you love him. Never tell him that you're grateful for him. He's dead. He's dead. He's just...dead. I never told him. [He]'s dead, and I'm alone. I'm all alone. I'm always alone.

Gah. How I wish we'd gotten something like this. Honestly, now that they brought it up, this is gonna be canon for me now: a couple of days post-"Chosen," and Buffy has a breakdown just like this one--maybe with Dawn or Faith in the room. Or maybe even Xander. Someone there to witness it. And then of course Spike comes back and finds her and heals her broken, broken heart and they live happily ever after with much kicking of ass and loud arguments and snarky banter and awesome sex and lots and lots and lots of happiness.

So I'm wondering if anyone else sees any of these breadcrumbs, as petzipellepingo calls them. I'd love to know anyone's thoughts on this, as I find it very interesting.

Anyone?

Comments

[angearia.livejournal.com]

Yeah, I totally felt it. GUH.

Buffy's breaking my heart. Always.

[rebcake.livejournal.com]

Why, yes! We are super geniuses! Or, perhaps it's just that I view the world through Buffy-colored glasses.

I do hope this scene did happen off-screen. It seems like it was something Joss had to get off his chest, you know. Maybe we'll see it in flashback during Season 8? Nah, because they already put it in Dollhouse.

But: And then of course Spike comes back and finds her and heals her broken, broken heart and they live happily ever after with much kicking of ass and loud arguments and snarky banter and awesome sex and lots and lots and lots of happiness.

That could still happen. Our Woman Warrior needs her devoted lieutenant!

Thank gods for fanfic, is all I can say...

[http://users.livejournal.com/_jems_/]

Oh, I totally made that connection while watching. It was the " I'm all alone. I'm always alone" that did it. It didn't feel at all like Echo (when has she ever felt alone?!), so my mind immediately went to the one of Joss's characters who actually was abandoned again and again.

[ubi4soft.livejournal.com]

I so much would like a similar Buffy breakdown over Spike, but only if I would have complete confidence that it wasn't from a self pity point of view (which in Echo's case I think it was, the repetitive I'm alone). Please don't kill me, I only saw DH once and never discussed before so I may be wrong.

[quinara]

(Petzi linked here.) I saw the exact same thing - to quote my review:

Since Epitaph One Echo/Ballard really smacked of S7 Spuffy, I may be taking Echo's breakdown as Joss's post-S7 projection of Buffy's psychology... I think I needed that touchstone, TBH, because I haven't been buying Echo/Ballard for the rest of the season.

My theory is that Joss/the writers realised no one cared about Echo/Ballard, so they tapped into our connection to another certain relationship in order to make us all care. Because Joss and co. are sneaky like that. ;)

[prophecygirrl.livejournal.com]

I actually did see that, too, and it's brilliant. But then the big question becomes what, if anything, does Paul's death and his absorption into Echo imply for S/B? Has a something of that already happened (that handholding thing in Chosen always niggled at me) or does it imply something for Spike's role in the comics? Or, more likely, am I just overthinking this?

[slaymesoftly.livejournal.com]

Hmmm - that's really interesting. I've never seen Dollhouse, so can't comment on the Echo/Ballard relationship, but yeah, there seem to be some strong echos (heh) of S/B there. I've always assumed Buffy had a breakdown of some sort once the initial "we beat the First, what do we do now?" stuff calmed down. I think she would have given him that much. I'm sorry that Joss never showed it or even alluded to it in the comics, but in my fics set after Chosen it always happened - maybe not right in the fic if it isn't relevant to the story being told, but it happened.

[ohwaluvusbab.livejournal.com]

I am acutely curious about these breadcrumbs also.

though we both agree that Buffy's totally lying. ;)

;D

it started out deeply creepy (well, kinda like Buffy and Spike)

BAHA. And yet, Ballard/Echo (and Claire/Boyd for that matter too) pings for me more on the creep meter. I have the feeling it has something to do with the fact that while one of them was about a male falling for an empowered female, the other was... not.
That said, I can appreciate that Echo and Paul did forge an honest connection in the period they were all banded together and fighting for their lives.
Still. S/B pwns you all. /crazy shipper

I don't know about a *breakdown*, but I have no doubt Buffy sobbed herself hoarse in private. Dawn would probably be the only one who would have the slightest idea of her loss. I just don't see anybody else getting it. Buffy's feelings for Spike were always so intensely *private*, which made them all the more tragic (as in, actually tragic, not overwrought ~ our love is so EPIC and DOOMED ~ melodramatic). And really, that was the crux of their connection, wasn't it. "I can be alone with you here"? (Makes the sentiment of being "always alone" that much more significant, really.) Which is, in essence, why I LOVE IT TO PIECES, and why it rips my cold dead heart in two, because I just have this certainty that Buffy's not ever going to find that again, you know? And you know me, I am so not the romantic in the room, but I don't think you need to be to recognise that after everything she went through with Spike (and yes, I am pulling out a VM quote) - spanning years and continents, lives ruined and bloodshed... any subsequent relationship is going to seem a tad lightweight ;)

Geez, get dramatic and rambly, why don't I. See what your post made me do? *shakes head* *returns to corner*

[petzipellepingo.livejournal.com]

First of all, Ballard/Echo isn't a patch on Spike/Buffy - there's none of the richness and deep complex layers of their relationship- but there are bits ("breadcrumbs") that remind me of Spike/Buffy.

You've got Ballard sleeping with Mellie while pining over Echo (shades of Dru and Harmoney), you've got Ballard taking care of Echo while they are on the run without getting anything as a reward (shades of the Riley era) and you've got him willing to die getting her back to the L.A. Dollhouse ("Chosen"). Like I said earlier, not a good match because Joss never seemed as interested in exploring their relationship and maybe he should have because it might have made the show a lot more interesting. But he didn't so all we have are breadcrumbs.

On the other hand, maybe he just threw that scene in to apologize for recent developments in the Season Eight comics "cough, Twilight, cough".

[anythingbutgrey.livejournal.com]

interesting. i'm not a buffy/spike shipper (though cerrtainly not an anti-shipper. my buffy otp is riley. i have long since given up arguing on this regard. :D) but i do find it interesting, and as someone else said in the comments here, echo really isn't alone. they tried to establish that earlier in the ep with paul saying she's the loneliest he's ever met, and the other commenter is right, echo isn't alone. she has friends, and, yes, paul died, and they could have built her as someone who feels permanently isolated due to her special state, but they didn't because they didn't get their shit together. i wouldn't necessarily look at her breakdown as a callback to spike/buffy, but i do think it could be a nice post-chosen fanon... thing. like, i get the fandom could take that and make it how they would have wanted buffy/spike to go, because i do recall the spuffy fandom was PISSED about the way buffy had little to no reaction about spike's death, and, hey, i want my fellow fangirls to be happy.


... epic comment without point is epic and pointless. :)

[shadowkat67.livejournal.com]

Are you following the comics at all?

I didn't see the Buffy/Spike in Echo/Paul at first, that I was uncertain of, mostly because TP plays Paul a bit like Marc Blucas played Riley. ;-) And like you said, it wasn't given enough time to develop. But that said, it does fit. (Except Buffy does tell Spike she loves him in Chosen, granted it's a bit late, but she does 'tell him'.)

What blew me away was Echo/Boyd. The Boyd reveal felt a lot like the Angelus reveal in Innocence, S2. Their relationship is also very similar to Buffy/Angel in some respects (sans sex) but remember Paul and Echo are sans sex too, and Paul takes over the same role as Boyd did - he's her handler. She's imprinted to trust him completely. It's just Boyd is more patriarchial in how he handles Echo, more fatherly, more cryptic in his information, makes all her decisions for her, while Ballard is the opposite - Ballard is the outsider, not the trusted member of the Dollhouse team. Boyd resents him yet plays his buddy. Boyd becomes Adell's right hand man. Boyd gets involved with Whiskey now Dr. Saunders, who'd previously been in a love/hate relationship with Topher (a Xanderish character).
Boyd takes charge with Sierra/Topher and the killing of Tolan. He acts like a man with a secretive and dark past that we don't know. But we trust him. We love him. Echo loves him.

Then, voila, comes the reveal. Which I was like, damn. Then suddenly, I thought, oh! I get what you were saying on Buffy now and what you are doing with the comics.

Compare Echo/Ballard and Echo/Boyd to Buffy/Spike and Buffy/Angel ...and there's some interesting parralel themes emerging.