lirazel | Everything goes back to Buffy and Spike...

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Everything goes back to Buffy and Spike...

The awesome, awesome

petzipellepingo started a fascinating Spuffy-related conversation in my Dollhouse reaction post. I'm sure not all of you have read it, but I know there are some of you who would be majorly interested, so keep reading for some insights.

Here's how it starts:

rebcake says: Am I the only one watching Echo lose it over Paul and thinking here is the missing scene of Buffy after Spike's (supposed) demise? *whimpers*

petzipellepingo adds: Nope, the whole speech was classic Buffy - especially the "I am always left alone" part and all the regrets for what she never said.
Plus, Ballard was called "Big Bad" Ballard. Joss left a bigger trail of breadcrumbs than Hansel and Gretel over the two of them being surrogates for Spike and Buffy.

ohwaluvusbab then mentions the conversation between Echo and Paul: "I've been knocking 10 years, you've never let me in"/"I've let you in a few times" exchange."

Which of course makes me think of "I seem to recall a certain amount of connecting."/"Oh, please. We were never close." (An interesting inversion there ~~though we both agree that Buffy's totally lying. ;)~~)

And

ohwaluvusbab says: Huh. I wouldn't have likened Paul/Echo to S/B of all pairings...

To which

petzipellepingo replies: Nor would I until this episode, when suddenly Echo went all Buffy over ~~Spike's~~ Ballards death.
I don't know what got into Joss.

Which made me giggle.

So. Even though I don't really like the Echo/Paul relationship because A) it started out deeply creepy (well, kinda like Buffy and Spike), B) we never got to see the creepy character (Paul) transform, and C) we were supposed to just take the writers' word for it that this was some epic love when we never had any reason to believe it (my high school English teacher is chanting in the back of my head: "Show, don't tell; show, don't tell; show, don't tell.")--despite all that, I think it's a really interesting comparison.

Here's Echo's breakdown, and OMG YES, I can see this being Buffy's breakdown post-"Chosen."

Kill it. Shut it down. Lock him out. Give him nothing. You can string him along for years. You've had years together, and what did you do? Waste it. Never tell him that you love him. Never tell him that you're grateful for him. He's dead. He's dead. He's just...dead. I never told him. [He]'s dead, and I'm alone. I'm all alone. I'm always alone.

Gah. How I wish we'd gotten something like this. Honestly, now that they brought it up, this is gonna be canon for me now: a couple of days post-"Chosen," and Buffy has a breakdown just like this one--maybe with Dawn or Faith in the room. Or maybe even Xander. Someone there to witness it. And then of course Spike comes back and finds her and heals her broken, broken heart and they live happily ever after with much kicking of ass and loud arguments and snarky banter and awesome sex and lots and lots and lots of happiness.

So I'm wondering if anyone else sees any of these breadcrumbs, as

petzipellepingo calls them. I'd love to know anyone's thoughts on this, as I find it very interesting.

Anyone?

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Yeah, I totally felt it. GUH.

Buffy's breaking my heart. Always.

I admit that my mind did flash to Buffy during that speech, but I thought I was the only one.

Oh, yes. Alwaysalwaysalways.

Why, yes! We are super geniuses! Or, perhaps it's just that I view the world through Buffy-colored glasses.

I do hope this scene did happen off-screen. It seems like it was something Joss had to get off his chest, you know. Maybe we'll see it in flashback during Season 8? Nah, because they already put it in Dollhouse.

But: And then of course Spike comes back and finds her and heals her broken, broken heart and they live happily ever after with much kicking of ass and loud arguments and snarky banter and awesome sex and lots and lots and lots of happiness.

That could still happen. Our Woman Warrior needs her devoted lieutenant!

Thank gods for fanfic, is all I can say...

We are super geniuses! Or, perhaps it's just that I view the world through Buffy-colored glasses.
A combination of both, methinks, which is the best combination of all!

That could still happen. Our Woman Warrior needs her devoted lieutenant!
There are no words for how completely I agree with this statement.

Oh, yes. Fanfic saves me from mourning even more than I do for poor Buffy.

Oh, I totally made that connection while watching. It was the " I'm all alone. I'm always alone" that did it. It didn't feel at all like Echo (when has she ever felt alone?!), so my mind immediately went to the one of Joss's characters who actually was abandoned again and again.

It didn't feel at all like Echo (when has she ever felt alone?!)

Yeah, I think that's what made it stand out to me. It didn't seem like it came from Echo's character - it felt like a lost Buffy scene that was put in Echo's mouth.

Like

quinara said, though, Echo/Ballard always left me cold before this, so if they have to make her a little more Buffy-like to actually make me care about her, I'm okay with that.

Echo/Ballard always left me cold before this, so if they have to make her a little more Buffy-like to actually make me care about her, I'm okay with that.
I agree. It was weird: in the scene between them in the truck and then again during Echo's breakdown, I was sitting there going, "Wow. I almost care about these two. How weird." I think it's because of the Bufy-connection.

Yeah, Echo has friends (Priya and Tony--I really loved the little glimpses of friendship between her and Priya in this episode), plus people who understand her in weird ways (Alpha, clearly, among others). Who abandons her? No one, except for the betrayal by Boyd (which is significant, but only one person, not three million like poor Buffy).

She has no idea what it's like to be alone the way Buffy is. *huggles Buffy*

Edited 2010-02-01 16:11 (UTC)

I so much would like a similar Buffy breakdown over Spike, but only if I would have complete confidence that it wasn't from a self pity point of view (which in Echo's case I think it was, the repetitive I'm alone). Please don't kill me, I only saw DH once and never discussed before so I may be wrong.

I wouldn't kill you! And I don't think you're wrong--I do think that Echo's being self-pitying there.

But I think Buffy's would be genuinely mourning this guy she loved with maybe some self-pity there. But I can't blame Buffy for that: if anyone deserves a little self-pity, it's her. And since I have a tendency to feel sorry for myself, I think it's a very human reaction, especially when she has been abandoned, time and again.

(Petzi linked here.) I saw the exact same thing - to quote my review:

Since Epitaph One Echo/Ballard really smacked of S7 Spuffy, I may be taking Echo's breakdown as Joss's post-S7 projection of Buffy's psychology... I think I needed that touchstone, TBH, because I haven't been buying Echo/Ballard for the rest of the season.

My theory is that Joss/the writers realised no one cared about Echo/Ballard, so they tapped into our connection to another certain relationship in order to make us all care. Because Joss and co. are sneaky like that. ;)

Hee! I'll have to read your review!

I absolutely agree with your theory. It's certainly what I needed. I was sitting there, both during the discussion in the truck ("pretend like you know me") and during Echo's breakdown, and being deeply, deeply weirded out that I almost cared. I definitely think it must have been because of the Buffy/Spike connection.

I also think that eventually I could have cared about those two. I always thought Paul was a major creeper, but then, I felt the same way about Topher at the outset, and now I fangirl him like crazy. If they'd dropped the "Echo is a special snowflake" bit and let Paul have some character development beyond his creepy white-knight complex, I think they could have (eventually) had an interesting relationship--possibly, as you say, Spuffy-esque.

But we'll never know now, will we?

I also think that eventually I could have cared about those two.

*nods* I think the secret with them would have been to make it less dramatic! and overblown! and ZOMG! - because the bit where everyone mocked Paul's "the world still needs heroes, kid" and Echo was just like WTF, dude - I could see something between them then. All the faffing about with coma!Paul and their "connection" being sacrificed for the active architecture didn't work for me at all.

Alas, no. (Though we have more to go on than Firefly, and just look what people make of that!)

I completely agree. The whole "she likes it when you're corny" thing worked for me, too--the mockage and the affection there. It could have worked for me.

All the faffing about with coma!Paul and their "connection" being sacrificed for the active architecture didn't work for me at all.
I hated it. In much the same way that I hated in AtS when suddenly Cordy stopped acting like Cordy and her and Angel's relationship was FATED LOVE OMG instead of her being the one to call him out when he was being broody and stupid.

(Though we have more to go on than Firefly, and just look what people make of that!)
True! I'm so incredibly excited about the idea of fic for this fandom!

I hated in AtS when suddenly Cordy stopped acting like Cordy and her and Angel's relationship was FATED LOVE OMG instead of her being the one to call him out when he was being broody and stupid.

Yes!! The moment Groo cam back I started rolling my eyes with C/A - which meant that by the time the super!special!irony of Tomorrow came along I'd basically stopped caring.

Oh, the Groo thing was just stupid. And then she dressed him up like Angel? This is not Cordy. I'm still annoyed.

I actually did see that, too, and it's brilliant. But then the big question becomes what, if anything, does Paul's death and his absorption into Echo imply for S/B? Has a something of that already happened (that handholding thing in Chosen always niggled at me) or does it imply something for Spike's role in the comics? Or, more likely, am I just overthinking this?

Has a something of that already happened (that handholding thing in Chosen always niggled at me) or does it imply something for Spike's role in the comics? Or, more likely, am I just overthinking this?
Well, possibly you are overthinking it, but if you are, I want to join you! ;)

Hmmm - that's really interesting. I've never seen Dollhouse, so can't comment on the Echo/Ballard relationship, but yeah, there seem to be some strong echos (heh) of S/B there. I've always assumed Buffy had a breakdown of some sort once the initial "we beat the First, what do we do now?" stuff calmed down. I think she would have given him that much. I'm sorry that Joss never showed it or even alluded to it in the comics, but in my fics set after Chosen it always happened - maybe not right in the fic if it isn't relevant to the story being told, but it happened.

I'm sorry that Joss never showed it or even alluded to it in the comics, but in my fics set after Chosen it always happened - maybe not right in the fic if it isn't relevant to the story being told, but it happened.
I agree 100%. She cared too deeply about him not to have that kind of breakdown.

I am acutely curious about these breadcrumbs also.

though we both agree that Buffy's totally lying. ;)

;D

it started out deeply creepy (well, kinda like Buffy and Spike)

BAHA. And yet, Ballard/Echo (and Claire/Boyd for that matter too) pings for me more on the creep meter. I have the feeling it has something to do with the fact that while one of them was about a male falling for an empowered female, the other was... not.
That said, I can appreciate that Echo and Paul did forge an honest connection in the period they were all banded together and fighting for their lives.
Still. S/B pwns you all. /crazy shipper

I don't know about a *breakdown*, but I have no doubt Buffy sobbed herself hoarse in private. Dawn would probably be the only one who would have the slightest idea of her loss. I just don't see anybody else getting it. Buffy's feelings for Spike were always so intensely *private*, which made them all the more tragic (as in, actually tragic, not overwrought ~ our love is so EPIC and DOOMED ~ melodramatic). And really, that was the crux of their connection, wasn't it. "I can be alone with you here"? (Makes the sentiment of being "always alone" that much more significant, really.) Which is, in essence, why I LOVE IT TO PIECES, and why it rips my cold dead heart in two, because I just have this certainty that Buffy's not ever going to find that again, you know? And you know me, I am so not the romantic in the room, but I don't think you need to be to recognise that after everything she went through with Spike (and yes, I am pulling out a VM quote) - spanning years and continents, lives ruined and bloodshed... any subsequent relationship is going to seem a tad lightweight ;)

Geez, get dramatic and rambly, why don't I. See what your post made me do? *shakes head* *returns to corner*

See

petzipellepingo's thoughts downthread! We have some answers about the breadcrumbs thing!

And yet, Ballard/Echo (and Claire/Boyd for that matter too) pings for me more on the creep meter. I have the feeling it has something to do with the fact that while one of them was about a male falling for an empowered female, the other was... not.

Agreed. Buffy had no trouble laying the smackdown on him and letting him know exactly what she thought of him. The power imbalance swung the opposite way, which makes it vastly less creepy.

That said, I can appreciate that Echo and Paul did forge an honest connection in the period they were all banded together and fighting for their lives. I can buy that. What I can't buy is "A Love Supreme" when supposedly they had already forged that connection BUT WE NEVER SAW IT. *is still annoyed*

Still. S/B pwns you all. /crazy shipper WORD.

Dawn would probably be the only one who would have the slightest idea of her loss. Agreed. Dawn is literally the only one close enough to both of them to even be able to glimpse it.

I agree with you on the privacy thing...and I don't. I love that their relationship was so private and personal. I love that other than a few tossed-off lines, Spike in AtS S5 doesn't speak about his relationship with Buffy at all. You would think he'd talk it up to make Angel mad, but he doesn't. Because it's deep and personal and not for others' eyes. It was theirs, so completely and totally that makes me want to cry.

Which is, in essence, why I LOVE IT TO PIECES, and why it rips my cold dead heart in two, because I just have this certainty that Buffy's not ever going to find that again, you know? YESYESYES. And YAY for VMars quotes! They are also welcome here! Especially that one, which is very appropriate!

However. I do think that since Buffy thinks he's totally dead, I would have liked to have even one person see what he meant to her. I don't need her to tell everyone or anything like that, but since she believes that relationship to be behind her now, I think it would be a hug step for her to admit to just one person how much Spike meant to her. Maybe not Giles or someone, but maybe Faith, who never really knew or judged him. Or Dawn.

I like it when you get rambly! I always appreciate our discussions--you bring a lot to my flist.

I love that their relationship was so private and personal.

Yes.

Aww, I do? XD Likewise, likewise.

I think it would be a hug step for her to admit to just one person how much Spike meant to her.

Absolutely. Faith would probably be the best candidate, and least likely to judge other people's twisted relationships ;)

Um, basically, I think we view S/B with the same eyes, because I have been known to get weird and choked up thinking about them too =]

Absolutely. Faith would probably be the best candidate, and least likely to judge other people's twisted relationships ;)

Yes. And since I'm a big proponent of the idea of post-Chosen Buffy&Faith bonding, I like the idea of this being something they'd bond over: Buffy sharing this with her and Faith not judging (because she'd probably make snarky comments, but she wouldn't judge).

I think you are correct. ;) And knowing that you aren't a romantic makes your love of them that much more interesting. They're so unique, anything but cliche, and I think that's why we embrace them.

Just a big word to that here. *nod*

First of all, Ballard/Echo isn't a patch on Spike/Buffy - there's none of the richness and deep complex layers of their relationship- but there are bits ("breadcrumbs") that remind me of Spike/Buffy.

You've got Ballard sleeping with Mellie while pining over Echo (shades of Dru and Harmoney), you've got Ballard taking care of Echo while they are on the run without getting anything as a reward (shades of the Riley era) and you've got him willing to die getting her back to the L.A. Dollhouse ("Chosen"). Like I said earlier, not a good match because Joss never seemed as interested in exploring their relationship and maybe he should have because it might have made the show a lot more interesting. But he didn't so all we have are breadcrumbs.

On the other hand, maybe he just threw that scene in to apologize for recent developments in the Season Eight comics "cough, Twilight, cough".

there's none of the richness and deep complex layers of their relationship Certainly not. Not only was there not time, but also, I don't think we're ever going to get a relationship of that kind that's that deep and nuanced again.

But your breadcrumbs are so interesting to me! And yeah: he should have gone more into it if he expected us to invest.

On the other hand, maybe he just threw that scene in to apologize for recent developments in the Season Eight comics "cough, Twilight, cough".
Hahaha!

interesting. i'm not a buffy/spike shipper (though cerrtainly not an anti-shipper. my buffy otp is riley. i have long since given up arguing on this regard. :D) but i do find it interesting, and as someone else said in the comments here, echo really isn't alone. they tried to establish that earlier in the ep with paul saying she's the loneliest he's ever met, and the other commenter is right, echo isn't alone. she has friends, and, yes, paul died, and they could have built her as someone who feels permanently isolated due to her special state, but they didn't because they didn't get their shit together. i wouldn't necessarily look at her breakdown as a callback to spike/buffy, but i do think it could be a nice post-chosen fanon... thing. like, i get the fandom could take that and make it how they would have wanted buffy/spike to go, because i do recall the spuffy fandom was PISSED about the way buffy had little to no reaction about spike's death, and, hey, i want my fellow fangirls to be happy.

... epic comment without point is epic and pointless. :)

Hee! Riley! I'm sure you often feel alone on that one! *pats head* But carry on! I'm open to all shipping in my journal.

and they could have built her as someone who feels permanently isolated due to her special state, but they didn't because they didn't get their shit together. Exactly. It was another instance of telling and not showing. SHOW ME, JOSS.

i wouldn't necessarily look at her breakdown as a callback to spike/buffy, I don't think it was necessarily intention on Joss's part (it probably wasn't), but then, I've always been one of those people who loves things the author never intended.

But it is exactly the kind of reaction that would make sense for Buffy: that's exactly the emotions I imagine her having eventually.

hey, i want my fellow fangirls to be happy.
Another reason you're awesome. I feel the same way!

Hey, your comments are never pointless! I always like them! Especially the epic ones!

Are you following the comics at all?

I didn't see the Buffy/Spike in Echo/Paul at first, that I was uncertain of, mostly because TP plays Paul a bit like Marc Blucas played Riley. ;-) And like you said, it wasn't given enough time to develop. But that said, it does fit. (Except Buffy does tell Spike she loves him in Chosen, granted it's a bit late, but she does 'tell him'.)

What blew me away was Echo/Boyd. The Boyd reveal felt a lot like the Angelus reveal in Innocence, S2. Their relationship is also very similar to Buffy/Angel in some respects (sans sex) but remember Paul and Echo are sans sex too, and Paul takes over the same role as Boyd did - he's her handler. She's imprinted to trust him completely. It's just Boyd is more patriarchial in how he handles Echo, more fatherly, more cryptic in his information, makes all her decisions for her, while Ballard is the opposite - Ballard is the outsider, not the trusted member of the Dollhouse team. Boyd resents him yet plays his buddy. Boyd becomes Adell's right hand man. Boyd gets involved with Whiskey now Dr. Saunders, who'd previously been in a love/hate relationship with Topher (a Xanderish character).
Boyd takes charge with Sierra/Topher and the killing of Tolan. He acts like a man with a secretive and dark past that we don't know. But we trust him. We love him. Echo loves him.

Then, voila, comes the reveal. Which I was like, damn. Then suddenly, I thought, oh! I get what you were saying on Buffy now and what you are doing with the comics.

Compare Echo/Ballard and Echo/Boyd to Buffy/Spike and Buffy/Angel ...and there's some interesting parralel themes emerging.

Boyd gets involved with Whiskey now Dr. Saunders, who'd previously been in a love/hate relationship with Topher

I'd actually say it this way: "Boyd gets involved with Whiskey who used to be #1 until Echo displaced her; Boyd switches to Whiskey when he's displaced in his relationship with Echo by Ballard." Which is to say "Angel gets involved with Cordy who used to be #1 Top Dog until Buffy displaced her (she has more power than Cordy, they compete with each other); Angel switches to Cordy when he's replaced in his relationship with Buffy by Spike. (not causal, but correlational)"

Yeah that's exactly what I meant. ;-)

Thank you for taking the time to make that relationship clearer. Sort of doing quick posts from work. No time to write much at length.

Hey! Thanks for having the nifty thinky thoughts. :D

Ooooh! Interesting stuff! I would never have thought about any of this, but I like the way your mind works!

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Everything goes back to Buffy and Spike...

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