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Everything goes back to Buffy and Spike...
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rebcake and petzipellepingo started a fascinating Spuffy-related conversation in my Dollhouse reaction post. I'm sure not all of you have read it, but I know there are some of you who would be majorly interested, so keep reading for some insights.
Here's how it starts:
rebcake says: Am I the only one watching Echo lose it over Paul and thinking here is the missing scene of Buffy after Spike's (supposed) demise? *whimpers*
petzipellepingo adds: Nope, the whole speech was classic Buffy - especially the "I am always left alone" part and all the regrets for what she never said.
Plus, Ballard was called "Big Bad" Ballard. Joss left a bigger trail of breadcrumbs than Hansel and Gretel over the two of them being surrogates for Spike and Buffy.
ohwaluvusbab then mentions the conversation between Echo and Paul: "I've been knocking 10 years, you've never let me in"/"I've let you in a few times" exchange."
Which of course makes me think of "I seem to recall a certain amount of connecting."/"Oh, please. We were never close." (An interesting inversion therethough we both agree that Buffy's totally lying. ;))
Andohwaluvusbab says: Huh. I wouldn't have likened Paul/Echo to S/B of all pairings...
To whichpetzipellepingo replies: Nor would I until this episode, when suddenly Echo went all Buffy over Spike's Ballards death.
I don't know what got into Joss.
Which made me giggle.
So. Even though I don't really like the Echo/Paul relationship because A) it started out deeply creepy (well, kinda like Buffy and Spike), B) we never got to see the creepy character (Paul) transform, and C) we were supposed to just take the writers' word for it that this was some epic love when we never had any reason to believe it (my high school English teacher is chanting in the back of my head: "Show, don't tell; show, don't tell; show, don't tell.")--despite all that, I think it's a really interesting comparison.
Here's Echo's breakdown, and OMG YES, I can see this being Buffy's breakdown post-"Chosen."
Kill it. Shut it down. Lock him out. Give him nothing. You can string him along for years. You've had years together, and what did you do? Waste it. Never tell him that you love him. Never tell him that you're grateful for him. He's dead. He's dead. He's just...dead. I never told him. [He]'s dead, and I'm alone. I'm all alone. I'm always alone.
Gah. How I wish we'd gotten something like this. Honestly, now that they brought it up, this is gonna be canon for me now: a couple of days post-"Chosen," and Buffy has a breakdown just like this one--maybe with Dawn or Faith in the room. Or maybe even Xander. Someone there to witness it.And then of course Spike comes back and finds her and heals her broken, broken heart and they live happily ever after with much kicking of ass and loud arguments and snarky banter and awesome sex and lots and lots and lots of happiness.
So I'm wondering if anyone else sees any of these breadcrumbs, aspetzipellepingo calls them. I'd love to know anyone's thoughts on this, as I find it very interesting.
Anyone?
rebcake and petzipellepingo started a fascinating Spuffy-related conversation in my Dollhouse reaction post. I'm sure not all of you have read it, but I know there are some of you who would be majorly interested, so keep reading for some insights.Here's how it starts:
rebcake says: Am I the only one watching Echo lose it over Paul and thinking here is the missing scene of Buffy after Spike's (supposed) demise? *whimpers*petzipellepingo adds: Nope, the whole speech was classic Buffy - especially the "I am always left alone" part and all the regrets for what she never said.Plus, Ballard was called "Big Bad" Ballard. Joss left a bigger trail of breadcrumbs than Hansel and Gretel over the two of them being surrogates for Spike and Buffy.
ohwaluvusbab then mentions the conversation between Echo and Paul: "I've been knocking 10 years, you've never let me in"/"I've let you in a few times" exchange."Which of course makes me think of "I seem to recall a certain amount of connecting."/"Oh, please. We were never close." (An interesting inversion there
And
ohwaluvusbab says: Huh. I wouldn't have likened Paul/Echo to S/B of all pairings...To which
petzipellepingo replies: Nor would I until this episode, when suddenly Echo went all Buffy over I don't know what got into Joss.
Which made me giggle.
So. Even though I don't really like the Echo/Paul relationship because A) it started out deeply creepy (well, kinda like Buffy and Spike), B) we never got to see the creepy character (Paul) transform, and C) we were supposed to just take the writers' word for it that this was some epic love when we never had any reason to believe it (my high school English teacher is chanting in the back of my head: "Show, don't tell; show, don't tell; show, don't tell.")--despite all that, I think it's a really interesting comparison.
Here's Echo's breakdown, and OMG YES, I can see this being Buffy's breakdown post-"Chosen."
Kill it. Shut it down. Lock him out. Give him nothing. You can string him along for years. You've had years together, and what did you do? Waste it. Never tell him that you love him. Never tell him that you're grateful for him. He's dead. He's dead. He's just...dead. I never told him. [He]'s dead, and I'm alone. I'm all alone. I'm always alone.
Gah. How I wish we'd gotten something like this. Honestly, now that they brought it up, this is gonna be canon for me now: a couple of days post-"Chosen," and Buffy has a breakdown just like this one--maybe with Dawn or Faith in the room. Or maybe even Xander. Someone there to witness it.
So I'm wondering if anyone else sees any of these breadcrumbs, as
petzipellepingo calls them. I'd love to know anyone's thoughts on this, as I find it very interesting.Anyone?
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though we both agree that Buffy's totally lying. ;)
;D
it started out deeply creepy (well, kinda like Buffy and Spike)
BAHA. And yet, Ballard/Echo (and Claire/Boyd for that matter too) pings for me more on the creep meter. I have the feeling it has something to do with the fact that while one of them was about a male falling for an empowered female, the other was... not.
That said, I can appreciate that Echo and Paul did forge an honest connection in the period they were all banded together and fighting for their lives.
Still. S/B pwns you all. /crazy shipper
I don't know about a *breakdown*, but I have no doubt Buffy sobbed herself hoarse in private. Dawn would probably be the only one who would have the slightest idea of her loss. I just don't see anybody else getting it. Buffy's feelings for Spike were always so intensely *private*, which made them all the more tragic (as in, actually tragic, not overwrought ~ our love is so EPIC and DOOMED ~ melodramatic). And really, that was the crux of their connection, wasn't it. "I can be alone with you here"? (Makes the sentiment of being "always alone" that much more significant, really.) Which is, in essence, why I LOVE IT TO PIECES, and why it rips my cold dead heart in two, because I just have this certainty that Buffy's not ever going to find that again, you know? And you know me, I am so not the romantic in the room, but I don't think you need to be to recognise that after everything she went through with Spike (and yes, I am pulling out a VM quote) - spanning years and continents, lives ruined and bloodshed... any subsequent relationship is going to seem a tad lightweight ;)
Geez, get dramatic and rambly, why don't I. See what your post made me do? *shakes head* *returns to corner*
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And yet, Ballard/Echo (and Claire/Boyd for that matter too) pings for me more on the creep meter. I have the feeling it has something to do with the fact that while one of them was about a male falling for an empowered female, the other was... not.
Agreed. Buffy had no trouble laying the smackdown on him and letting him know exactly what she thought of him. The power imbalance swung the opposite way, which makes it vastly less creepy.
That said, I can appreciate that Echo and Paul did forge an honest connection in the period they were all banded together and fighting for their lives. I can buy that. What I can't buy is "A Love Supreme" when supposedly they had already forged that connection BUT WE NEVER SAW IT. *is still annoyed*
Still. S/B pwns you all. /crazy shipper WORD.
Dawn would probably be the only one who would have the slightest idea of her loss. Agreed. Dawn is literally the only one close enough to both of them to even be able to glimpse it.
I agree with you on the privacy thing...and I don't. I love that their relationship was so private and personal. I love that other than a few tossed-off lines, Spike in AtS S5 doesn't speak about his relationship with Buffy at all. You would think he'd talk it up to make Angel mad, but he doesn't. Because it's deep and personal and not for others' eyes. It was theirs, so completely and totally that makes me want to cry.
Which is, in essence, why I LOVE IT TO PIECES, and why it rips my cold dead heart in two, because I just have this certainty that Buffy's not ever going to find that again, you know? YESYESYES. And YAY for VMars quotes! They are also welcome here! Especially that one, which is very appropriate!
However. I do think that since Buffy thinks he's totally dead, I would have liked to have even one person see what he meant to her. I don't need her to tell everyone or anything like that, but since she believes that relationship to be behind her now, I think it would be a hug step for her to admit to just one person how much Spike meant to her. Maybe not Giles or someone, but maybe Faith, who never really knew or judged him. Or Dawn.
I like it when you get rambly! I always appreciate our discussions--you bring a lot to my flist.
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Yes.
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I think it would be a hug step for her to admit to just one person how much Spike meant to her.
Absolutely. Faith would probably be the best candidate, and least likely to judge other people's twisted relationships ;)
Um, basically, I think we view S/B with the same eyes, because I have been known to get weird and choked up thinking about them too =]
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Yes. And since I'm a big proponent of the idea of post-Chosen Buffy&Faith bonding, I like the idea of this being something they'd bond over: Buffy sharing this with her and Faith not judging (because she'd probably make snarky comments, but she wouldn't judge).
I think you are correct. ;) And knowing that you aren't a romantic makes your love of them that much more interesting. They're so unique, anything but cliche, and I think that's why we embrace them.
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