The part of me that's all YEEEEEEEEEEEEEEESSSSSSSSSSSS about Tony/Priya (THEY HAVE A BABY! THEY STILL LOOOOOVE EACH OTHER) is conflict with the part of me that's all NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO about Topher (MY BAAAABY!).
I've got all this energy now! I need to go out and run around the house, except that it's cold and snowy. But I was SO INTO IT. Joss really came through, and I honestly hadn't expected him to. But this episode justified all these months of trying to--and sometimes actually managing to--care.
(I just want to huggle him for the rest of time. OH TOPHER.)
This is me, *not reading the spoilers* and lamenting that my will I/won't indecision is moot. My internet connection here is so much worse than it was three months ago that I can't watch any more Dollhouse - at least, not the way I have been. *whimpers*
I echo (ha) both your reactions. DAMN, that was awesome. And even though I'm hurting over Topher, I'm hurting even more for Adelle having to live with what happened to him :(
It was so good. And YES re: Adelle. I love how much she loved him. They had a gorgeous relationship. Now I want her to stumble upon Mr. Kick Ass Dominic and him make her happy and her tell him all about her feelings about Topher. That's what should happen.
Also, I want to know what happened to Ivy. And Whiskey. And Dominic. THERE'S SO MUCH MORE.
God, that *is* what should happen. And Dominic is still resentful of her for sending him to the Attic (twice!) but she's in such obvious pain and he totally cares for her in spite of himself.
I'm thinking Dominic has been all badass bitter underground freedom fighter since he got out.
I didn't even think of Ivy until someone else mentioned her, but I was really looking forward to finding out who Whiskey used to be!
I like to think that Ivy is working with Dominic. As the person who helps them with their tech, y/y? I just made that up.
Yeah, it definitely would have been interesting to find out who she was, but all things considered, I'm not disappointed that we didn't find out. I would have liked to have seen her there in the dollhouse waiting for them when they got back, though, possibly working with Alpha. Stupid Amy Acker's schedule!
Oooh, I like that! Ivy should have gotten a bit of action, finally, instead of always being dismissed and sent to fetch snacks.
And yeah, I've pretty much decided to believe that Whiskey gassed those people to sleep and then wiped them and herself, and that it happened as a safety measure whenever anyone found the Dollhouse, which probably happened a few times over the years. Now I want to imagine Alpha dropping in on her every now and then and developping a sort of quiet rapport with her, maybe telling her some of his deepest darkest thoughts because he knows she won't know what to make of them and will just eventually forget everything.
AW MAN I KNOW. There are some people on my flist who think this show is kind of vile, and I...can easily see where they're coming from. I remember Joss talking in an interview about how the sexual themes of the show were what he was interested in exploring and FOX made him tone it down and that bugged him, and I was like, "Oh, Joss, no. The squick there is what drove so much of your usually hardcore fanbase away."
I also remember someone making a crack was something along the lines of "it's like there's this guy who draws really good pictures of kittens, and you love his work, and then he draws the worst kitten ever, maybe it's a kitten inside out, and you don't understand what happened." Which, there were lots of things about the show I did like, but...yeah. Yeah.
I read that interview, and it disturbed me greatly. Apparently he wanted to get into the customers' heads? UH JOSS DID YOU MISS THE MEMO? THEY WERE CREEEPERS.
Thank you, FOX, for that one thing. We really dodged a bullet.
I can also definitely see where your friends are coming from; I was often at that place myself. But Topher's arc alone redeems it for me.
Ha! Kittens! I am amused. I just can't get over how uneven it was. It blows my mind. The things I loved, I loved so hard, and the things that sucked, sucked so hard and then there was blahness...
But as someone pointed out, it was still, overall, better than the comparable first 26 episodes of BtVS, honestly. Barring "Prophecy Girl," nothing in the first 26 episodes of BtVS could match the emotional intensity of "Belonging" or of Topher's arc.
Of course, then came "Innocence" and such, and the show just didn't stop being awesome. It would have been interesting to see if it would have eventually become as awesome as BtVS. I doubt it, mostly because of the themes, but it still could have been great.
Seriously, Joss! I sat uncomfortably through the constant rape-vibe for the interesting characterization and the show's mythology and the actually-good bits! I have zero interest in sitting inside the minds of the rapists themselves. Like, I'm not sure I could even keep watching if they went there. This show is so much better when it goes the way of conspiracy stuff and what having a 'soul' actually means and stops playing up the prostitution angle. I think that it would have been better for the show overall if it had started out with some kind of 'no sex allowed' deal. When the first trailer was released, so much of my flist thought it looked awesome, and then when the show itself turned out to be weird softcore stuff the same people went "um. No thank you." Just. ARGH.
I see what you're saying about Dollhouse's run being more of a sucker-punch than BtVS, though I personally disagree - I mean, yeah, DH had way more drama and darkness going on, but one of my favorite things about early Buffy is the sweet, campy fun. The oldschool seasons of BtVS are some of my favorite TV ever.
It would have been interesting to see if it would have eventually become as awesome as BtVS. I doubt it, mostly because of the themes, but it still could have been great. Word. Dollhouse, I think, has too many fundamental problems to ever be pure greatness like the best of BtVS, but it's hit the right notes a few times and it would've been cool to see it really hit its stride.
(I'm still bitter about SCC, but that is another can of worms altogether. ;_____:)
I think Joss has a thing for prostitution. See: Inara. And I think it's one of his major fails, because he's in the privileged position as a man, and he'll never be able to get past that to explore it.
I think that it would have been better for the show overall if it had started out with some kind of 'no sex allowed' deal. YES.
Oh, I found the early seasons of BtVS much more enjoyable because of that sweet, campy fun you mention, plus the characters that you fall in love with right away and can actually identify with. I'm just saying that from an objective, writing standpoint, DH is better--the worst episodes were about on par with the worst episodes of early BtVS (see: "Reptile Boy," etc.), but the great episodes of DH were, again, from a technical standpoint, better written. Which makes sense, because as faily as he can be sometimes, Joss has learned a lot since then. I'm sure he must have been confused as to why people didn't instantly connect with his show, but DUH JOSS. IT'S THE CHARACTERS, STUPID. Which DH ended up having some great ones, but it took a while to connect with them.
Of course, I'm more of a later season fan of BtVS, so we probably disagree there. ;)
(I am weeping with sorrow over the thought of how much more awesome Topher's arc would have been had we had more seasons to explore it. *huggles him*)
The "small group of misfits fight in a post-apocalyptic world against seemingly impossible odds" is a narrative kink of mine. Maaaaajor narrative kink. Like, bulletproof. So I could have watched season after season of the stuff leading up to E2: the group holed up in the dollhouse, then making their way to Tuscan, the building of Neuropolis, the resistance fighting, the creation of Safe Haven, Topher slowly losing his mind, Adelle softening and becoming more of a leader, Priya and Tony's romance and then falling out--heck, I might have even gotten interested in the whole Echo/Ballard thing eventually.
Gah. Now I'm depressed.
(I'm sure you are. *pats head* I switched Summer Glau icons. Isn't this one pretty?)
YES. Along with the racefail and the mental illness fail (I love River, this you know, but I can also see that she is not the most accurate or sensitive depiction of paranoid schizophrenia ever). Oh, and the lesbians-are-okay-but-god-forbid-we-have-a-canon-gay-guy thing chafes, too. FEH. I crit because I love, I swear.
DUH JOSS. IT'S THE CHARACTERS, STUPID. AHAHA. YES. I just think it took too long for everyone to get somewhere, you know? Topher was creepy for too long, the Dolls were victimized and agency-less for too long, son on and so forth. I appreciate slow-paced stuff, but there's such a thing as not enough for too long.
(God bless you, Topher Brink. IT'S LIKE SPIKE EXCEPT HE HAS NO SPINOFF TO BE RESURRECTED ON OMG.)
Epitaphverse would have been fantaaaaastic as its own show. I would SHAVE MY HEAD to see Alpha's gradual turn to the side of good.
(It is indeed quite gorgeous! Man, I'm thisclose to just mailing you my DVDs. I NEED YOU TO SEE IT SO WE CAN CONVERSE ABOUT MANY THINGS. Also, I expect that you will love the character of Derek. Something about him and his manpain just says 'Lauren will fangirl this one, too' to me.)
OMG YES. You just named most of the problems that I have with his issues. And despite the fact that I love his crazy characters (Dru, River, Fred-when-she-was-crazy, Topher, Spike-in-the-basement, etc.), the very fact that there are so many...says things.
Oh, and the lesbians-are-okay-but-god-forbid-we-have-a-canon-gay-guy thing chafes, too. FEH. Yeah, the lack of gay guys almost undermines the fact that he actually treats his lesbians with a certain amount of respect--i.e. they aren't making out for guys' enjoyment. Because the fact that he's okay with that but not the other...*sigh*
I crit because I love, I swear. Me, too!
Topher was creepy for too long, the Dolls were victimized and agency-less for too long, son on and so forth. I appreciate slow-paced stuff, but there's such a thing as not enough for too long. Exactly. I desperately wanted to care about the characters, but it took sooo long.
(HE IS SO LIKE SPIKE. He starts out as the villain and dies the hero, saving the whole world. Gah. So beautiful.)
I WOULD SHAVE MY HEAD AS WELL! I can't believe I forgot about good-yet-still-badass-Alpha! The exchange with Victor was my FAVORITE THING EVER. And then the asking for a favor? GAH. HE'S SO AWESOME.
(I know, I know! I started it and just couldn't get into it, which makes me sad because everyone ever loves it! I will try again soon. I'm watching Being Human right now, but I should be caught up soon. Maybe after that I'll give it another try?
Also, I expect that you will love the character of Derek. Something about him and his manpain just says 'Lauren will fangirl this one, too' to me. You know just what to say to me, don't you? I always need another character to fangirl.)
Man, I don't even know what frustrates me the most. The lack of gay men, the weird 'crazy' stereotypes he pulls over and over (even if I love all those characters you named, too), the invisible Chinese people in Firefly, the invisible any-minority-ever on BtVS--okay, I cannot try to list a full set of fails or I will be here all night, and I still have homework to do. (REALLY, I CRIT BECAUSE I LOVE.)
A lot of people were irritated by Alpha's unexplained turn, I know, but it was so perfectly written and acted that I can forgive it. Like! That's exactly how Alpha would be, if he was good instead of evil! *hands*
(The first few eps are a little slow, but then it gets SO GOOD, and apart from a handful in the middle s2 of SCC is near-perfection. Like, even if you don't think s1 gets SO GOOD, omg please promise me you will check out s2 anyone. BECAUSE REALLY IT'S SO GREAT. The premiere alone pushed me from "oh yes that is a show with Summer kicking ass that I enjoy once in awhile because it has Summer kicking ass" to "I MEAN WOW WHEN DID THIS SHOW GET THIS GOOD."
Seriously! I just think you will love him! He's snarky and PTSDish and he doesn't grasp why Sarah won't let him blow up City Hall at one point! His relationship with Cameron is full of hate and suspicion and it's awesome! asdfjkl;;;; okay i'm finished now.)
YESYESYES: all of those fails. They drive me CRAZY!
but it was so perfectly written and acted that I can forgive it. Like! That's exactly how Alpha would be, if he was good instead of evil! *hands* Exactly! He was still so Alpha: just good! Yay!
(I will do it! Eventually! And of course report back to you immediately!
He's snarky and PTSDish and he doesn't grasp why Sarah won't let him blow up City Hall at one point! His relationship with Cameron is full of hate and suspicion and it's awesome Sounds like my kinda guy!)
I remember when I was thirteen and stupid and just getting into fandom, I kept trying to rationalize away all the fails. I am so glad that five years later I have become smarter than that. Because SOME PEOPLE NEVER ARE. (True story: one time I saw someone trying to wank away Firefly's lack of Chinese people with something along the lines of "no, see, if the show had just been able to keep going Joss would have totally cast Asian people eventually! This is just all FOX's fault again!" And I could only...shake my head. I mean, yeah, I like to think Joss is at least smart enough to realize his China-influenced future should feature Chinese characters on a regular basis, but...dude, come on.)
I swear to God that his exchange with Tony where he was all OMG WHY WOULD YOU DO THAT TO YOUR FACE and Tony was just like "........" was one of my most favoritest Dollhouse moments of all time. Alpha is too great for words.
(LAUREN. You know this .gif here?: Why yes, the off-camera person Riverbot is making her unimpressed-while-dining-on-pancakes!face at is Derek. They're not my 'ship, but I will never stop fangirling their interaction anyway.)
Yes! I remember reading a criticism of Firefly and getting super defensive. But I've done a lot of growing up, too, and I lovelovelove being able to balance things now.
(THAT STORY IS STUPID. YOU ARE WRONG, FANBOY.)
YESYESYES! That was my favorite moment, too! ALPHA! And the look on Enver's face!
They're not my 'ship, but I will never stop fangirling their interaction anyway I have some not-ships like this! Oh, you're so getting me into this!
I think he has a fascination with sex, period. And I hate saying it, and I used to yell at other people for saying it, but... I think he does. As I said before, even in the early Buffy seasons, Buffy dressed like she was on her way to a nightclub. At fifteen. Can we say ew? I know a lot of teenagers dress like that, but not the "strong kickass girl" Joss meant for Buffy to be. Then later on, Buffy had that creepy thing with Spike, although apparently that was mostly Marti Noxon (Nixon?)
In fairness to Inara, I do think the intention was for her to be more of a spiritual figure. And I can see that. But it was still a bit creepy.
I like Joss, I do. I just think that while he may be a male feminist, he's also obsessed with women who wear skimpy clothing and give themselves away to just any man. That's creepy.
I don't think it's necessarily bad to have an interest in sex or to want to explore it. Many of my favorite works of literature--say, Dangerous Liaisons or Madam Bovary--explore that very topic. But I do think he's looking at it from a privileged perspective that makes a lot of his interests inherently squicky and self-indulgent--mostly because he thinks he's making some grand feminist statement when he isn't at all.
Although I'm a really big fan of S6 of BtVS. I find the relationship between Buffy and Spike in that season really compelling and nuanced, as twisted as it was. It definitely wasn't healthy, but it was endlessly fascinating, and very real (I've watched people suffering from emotional problems--bipolar disorder, etc.--use sex in a way very similar to the way clinically depressed Buffy acts there). And I lovelovelovelovelove all the gender role inverting that was going on there.
People "blame" Marti Noxon for S6, but the buck always stops with Joss. "Seeing Red" was her idea (and I still think it was a bad one), but Joss had the final say on everything.
In fairness to Inara, I do think the intention was for her to be more of a spiritual figure. And I can see that. But it was still a bit creepy. Agreed.
I just think that while he may be a male feminist, he's also obsessed with women who wear skimpy clothing and give themselves away to just any man. I've definitely had some conversations before about how I dislike the way he says he wants to tell women's stories--but what he really wants to do is tell the stories of conventionally attractive young women. Which was why I was glad to see both Adelle and November/Mellie on DH. Because even though they're both gorgeous, one is a little older and one is less of the Hollywood style of attractiveness. It was a good first step--now I want him to go further.
But I do think he definitely has an interest in prostitution specifically, and as I am not a fan of the institution for many reasons (though I do absolutely hate the demonization and othering of women who either choose or are forced into that lifestyle), that squicks me.
"Oh, Joss, no. The squick there is what drove so much of your usually hardcore fanbase away."
This. Of course, I then remembered that even in Joss's earlier shows he's had sex where he could fit it - Inara being a "companion", and Buffy dressed pretty wild for a teenager in seasons one and two (she toned it down in season three), and then had that creepy "relationship" with Spike in the sixth season. Still, that's also what drove a lot of people away from Buffy, and that's what drove people away from Dollhouse. Even I was driven away - and didn't get back into it until a friend of mine convinced me the show did eventually become less about Dollsex and more to the real point. I was so close to missing out on something truly wonderful though.
I have feelings that can only be expressed through flaily hands. I just wish I had gotten to watch this with my brother (I hooked him over winter, and he's only gotten to watch the past two live with me, though I got to watch all of it with him completely unspoiled)
So...has Joss gone soft on us? This pretty much makes TWO happy end game couples for him. Along with a father trying his damnedest not to suck.
TOOOOPHER. And the last thing he was was the remembrance wall...
I understand the need for flaily hands. I am often in that place myself. Too bad about your brother!
DEAR GOD I HOPE HE HAS. It may be the actual depiction of a father that comes through that most surprises me and pleases me. Joss must have daddy issues.
I loved that he turned around and saw all the people he's saving. OH TOPHER.
How many hankies did I go through while watching this ep twice in a row? Not telling.
"Can I help you burn stuff?"
My kid has already made sketches for her "Tech Head" Comic-Con outfit, so please send all dead flash drives, so that she can put tape labels on them for "goodness" and "mercy" and probably "hope" and "charity" as well. *falls over*
Am I the only one watching Echo lose it over Paul and thinking here is the missing scene of Buffy after Spike's (supposed) demise? *whimpers*
Am I the only one watching Echo lose it over Paul and thinking here is the missing scene of Buffy after Spike's (supposed) demise? *whimpers*
Nope, the whole speech was classic Buffy - especially the "I am always left alone" part and all the regrets for what she never said. Plus, Ballard was called "Big Bad" Ballard. Joss left a bigger trail of breadcrumbs than Hansel and Gretel over the two of them being surrogates for Spike and Buffy.
Huh. I wouldn't have likened Paul/Echo to S/B of all pairings, but... yeah, I can sort of maybe see it in the "I've been knocking 10 years, you've never let me in"/"I've let you in a few times" exchange.
Haha! It was the first thing that popped into my head when the whole "knocking for ten years" thing got brought up.
I soooo do, too. He was the closest she was to anybody for those last two years on the show. She's just being typically Buffy and not wanting to voice her emotions.
Btw, that icon makes me grin like a loon whenever you use it. Randy+Joan are love!
Love or hate Spuffy, this is a fact that's pretty damn hard to refute. And yet people constantly try to do it! I hate the whole "she cared about him, but she definitely didn't love him" thing. It's EVERYWHERE!
I am glad you used that icon again, because it's adorableness just diffused my rage!
I hate the whole "she cared about him, but she definitely didn't love him" thing.
This makes me scratch my head. I'm convinced these people are operating from a completely different definition of love. Thing is, there is no 'correct' way to love someone, and frankly, the fact that Buffy's particular connection with Spike doesn't fit into some people's idea of 'love' isn't worth much of a damn, really. It's like how people say that Angel and Darla never really loved each other, despite the fact that they were together 150 years, Angel went through The freaking Trial to try and save her life, etcetera etcetera. It baffles the mind. And of course, what Buffy and Spike had couldn't be love, and the fact that they put each other through so much shit and yet somehow ultimately stood by each other though everything was a total fluke, right? Right. Gotcha.
Thing is, there is no 'correct' way to love someone, and frankly, the fact that Buffy's particular connection with Spike doesn't fit into some people's idea of 'love' isn't worth much of a damn, really. Oh, amen! You should check out my rant here, as I think you would agree with me. (Also: admire the way I kept my own shippiness completely out of the discussion!)
OH YES. I love Angel/Darla. He loves her a great deal, but she's so broken and twisted. In my mind, she's the great love of his life.
I think people have such a narrow definition of what love is (especially romantic love), a Bella+Edward sort of thing, that they're incapable of seeing other manifestations of it. Either that, or their shippiness blinds them.
Oh, WORD. Yes. ::hates E/B:: It's the ingrained notion of fairytale love that society holds up as the ultimate ideal that people should strive for. Disheartening.
I absolutely agree about D/A. (Heh, didn't Darla even joke that they were 'soulmates' after she was brought back by W&H?) Anyhow, it was OTP like nobody's business.
It's the ingrained notion of fairytale love that society holds up as the ultimate ideal that people should strive for. Disheartening. Disheartening is just the right word for it.
I rarely find Angel interesting. But whenever Darla's in the room (like whenever Spike's in the room) I SIT UP AND TAKE NOTICE. She's the only one of his relationships I really cared about.
Hee! I love how I sort of commanded you over there. But I don't think anyone but eowyn_315 read it, and I wanted more solidarity!
I completely agree with your rant. And while reading the comments, it occurred to me that there are still probably a ton of Bangel shippers who honestly believe that Buffy *should*, to this day, love Angel more, and support the idea of them pining for each other all this time. Then I had a rage blackout and had to go drink some water for a while. (A rare occurrence, because I really could care less about what other people think usually, but said idea is so insulting to two characters I care deeply about that I will never not be baffled by it.) /own rant
Then I had a rage blackout and had to go drink some water for a while. (A rare occurrence, because I really could care less about what other people think usually, but said idea is so insulting to two characters I care deeply about that I will never not be baffled by it.) /own rant YEEEEESSSSS. I'm normally pretty live-and-let live re: fandom preferences (at least in "public;" in my own journal, it's a different story), but I totally, totally agree.
Also, I can't understand why the whole "BUFFY LUVS ANGEL 4EVA!!1!" thing is so prevalent everywhere outside of Spike-fandom. Every time you read an article or essay or blog-entry...it's all about how "ANGEL IS HER ONE TRUE LOVE OMG" and I'm all, ""Seriously? Am I missing the part where our hero growing up is a bad thing?
Of course, these are probably the same people who think that Spike's character was completely ruined after the chip and that he was soooo much better when he was evil and being soft is such a baaaaad thing, etc., etc., etc. excuse me while I vomit.
Icon is most excellent. (It's actually 4am here right now, but I was bored with sleeping, so.)
Every time you read an article or essay or blog-entry...it's all about how "ANGEL IS HER ONE TRUE LOVE OMG"
It's got to be the effect of marketing. B/A, truthfully, is probably the most marketable thing about BtVS, and Lord knows they've been milked. (It's interesting to think about, because before venturing into fandom, I always assumed that B/A was the preferred fandom pairing. But now? I really don't think they are any more popular than S/B. And Angel is definitely not more popular than Spike. Then again, I could be completely, completely off.) I have noticed that the later seasons get virtually zero attention in media, and S2-3 are treated as the apex of the show or something. Meh. I say meh.
Wow. I never get bored with sleeping. Me/Sleep is my RL OTP.
I suspect that you might be correct.
I really don't think they are any more popular than S/B. And Angel is definitely not more popular than Spike. Then again, I could be completely, completely off. I think as far as hardcore shipping goes, there might be more S/B, actually. But I think if you asked just the average fan who really has no strong emotions either way, they'd probably say, "Meh. I like Buffy/Angel more." Or maybe that's just on whedonesque? I could be wrong.
I have noticed that the later seasons get virtually zero attention in media, and S2-3 are treated as the apex of the show or something. Meh. I say meh. That makes me really, really angry. I know it shouldn't, but it does. Especially because, other than a few fabulous episodes, I think S3 is boring and the later seasons are far richer and more nuanced.
LOL. I should have been clearer. I got bored with *trying* to sleep. (Insomniac.)
I think as far as hardcore shipping goes, there might be more S/B, actually.
Yeah. I think you're right. (Which makes me stupidly gleeful, I have to admit it.)
But I think if you asked just the average fan who really has no strong emotions either way, they'd probably say, "Meh. I like Buffy/Angel more."
Huh. Obviously, I get that B/A, uh, goes down easier than S/B at certain points (I imagine S6 turned a lot of people off). However, I always thought that the overall S/B dynamic is more appealing in a broader sense. (Or maybe the B/A dynamic is so NOT appealing to me personally that it's clouding my view?) I mean, the snarky, antagonistic ship? Uber popular in general fandom. And S/B go through MANY different stages, so if one hated their dysfunction in S6, for instance, one would probably like the more conventional romance of S7. Whereas B/A, as far as I can see, appeals to one type (the True Love/gothic romance thing). But most significant of all, I feel: the B/A chemistry is subjective and varies depending on your view. As much as people rave about it, I've come across just as many who dispute its existence. (I personally see very little authentic spark or sexual chemistry between them. Unpopular opinion.) S/B on the other hand, it's pretty much universally agreed that they have IT, even from those who hate the union. (Hey, they didn't top that TV Guide Hottest Love Scenes for nothing!) Then again, who knows, I could just be plain wrong. (Though I doubt it.) ;)
the later seasons are far richer and more nuanced
No argument here. Fact is, S2-3 was probably the height of BtVS popularity, which means the later seasons get overlooked. I do feel that that the show is more accessible to the mainstream in the earlier seasons. However, it's not for nothing that the parts of the show that generate the most discussion/debate/analysis are the LATER SEASONS.
Joss left a bigger trail of breadcrumbs than Hansel and Gretel over the two of them being surrogates for Spike and Buffy. I would lovelovelove to hear your other breadcrumbs for it. Because I kind of love this idea even if Echo/Paul freaks me out.
I have now watched it two and a half times. I suspect I'll watch bits of it at least once more before I go to bed tonight....
Oh, that's so cool! I bet her costume will be so cool! She's obviously way creative, and I am jealous!
Am I the only one watching Echo lose it over Paul and thinking here is the missing scene of Buffy after Spike's (supposed) demise? *whimpers* I rewatched it after reading this comment, and you're so right. Word for word, it could have been Spike and Buffy, and now I'm depressed unless I tell myself that Buffy had a similar offscreen reaction (preferably with Faith in the room, just because). I love that you noticed that.
Oh, I'm certain she was. I think their relationship is completely gorgeous. Every time she called him darling, I freaked out a little bit. She was so beautifully maternal, and she had every right to be proud of him.
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I loved this. Wow. So emotionally satisfying in the sense of hitting all the notes.
(I ECHO YOUR MY BAAAABY!)
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(I just want to huggle him for the rest of time. OH TOPHER.)
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And do not read the spoilers. Don't do it. Ever.
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It was so good. And YES re: Adelle. I love how much she loved him. They had a gorgeous relationship. Now I want her to stumble upon Mr. Kick Ass Dominic and him make her happy and her tell him all about her feelings about Topher. That's what should happen.
Also, I want to know what happened to Ivy. And Whiskey. And Dominic. THERE'S SO MUCH MORE.
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I'm thinking Dominic has been all badass bitter underground freedom fighter since he got out.
I didn't even think of Ivy until someone else mentioned her, but I was really looking forward to finding out who Whiskey used to be!
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I like to think that Ivy is working with Dominic. As the person who helps them with their tech, y/y? I just made that up.
Yeah, it definitely would have been interesting to find out who she was, but all things considered, I'm not disappointed that we didn't find out. I would have liked to have seen her there in the dollhouse waiting for them when they got back, though, possibly working with Alpha. Stupid Amy Acker's schedule!
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And yeah, I've pretty much decided to believe that Whiskey gassed those people to sleep and then wiped them and herself, and that it happened as a safety measure whenever anyone found the Dollhouse, which probably happened a few times over the years. Now I want to imagine Alpha dropping in on her every now and then and developping a sort of quiet rapport with her, maybe telling her some of his deepest darkest thoughts because he knows she won't know what to make of them and will just eventually forget everything.
Oh, show. You left the most tantalizing gaps. <3
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It really did. There's so much room for fic! I have a feeling I'm going to be writing it for...a while.
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Didn't we get a hint of a real name or something?
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That was beyond excellent. Nice one, Joss.
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I just wish it hadn't taken that long to get awesome again. This show was so uneven.
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I also remember someone making a crack was something along the lines of "it's like there's this guy who draws really good pictures of kittens, and you love his work, and then he draws the worst kitten ever, maybe it's a kitten inside out, and you don't understand what happened." Which, there were lots of things about the show I did like, but...yeah. Yeah.
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Thank you, FOX, for that one thing. We really dodged a bullet.
I can also definitely see where your friends are coming from; I was often at that place myself. But Topher's arc alone redeems it for me.
Ha! Kittens! I am amused. I just can't get over how uneven it was. It blows my mind. The things I loved, I loved so hard, and the things that sucked, sucked so hard and then there was blahness...
But as someone pointed out, it was still, overall, better than the comparable first 26 episodes of BtVS, honestly. Barring "Prophecy Girl," nothing in the first 26 episodes of BtVS could match the emotional intensity of "Belonging" or of Topher's arc.
Of course, then came "Innocence" and such, and the show just didn't stop being awesome. It would have been interesting to see if it would have eventually become as awesome as BtVS. I doubt it, mostly because of the themes, but it still could have been great.
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I see what you're saying about Dollhouse's run being more of a sucker-punch than BtVS, though I personally disagree - I mean, yeah, DH had way more drama and darkness going on, but one of my favorite things about early Buffy is the sweet, campy fun. The oldschool seasons of BtVS are some of my favorite TV ever.
It would have been interesting to see if it would have eventually become as awesome as BtVS. I doubt it, mostly because of the themes, but it still could have been great.
Word. Dollhouse, I think, has too many fundamental problems to ever be pure greatness like the best of BtVS, but it's hit the right notes a few times and it would've been cool to see it really hit its stride.
(I'm still bitter about SCC, but that is another can of worms altogether. ;_____:)
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I think that it would have been better for the show overall if it had started out with some kind of 'no sex allowed' deal. YES.
Oh, I found the early seasons of BtVS much more enjoyable because of that sweet, campy fun you mention, plus the characters that you fall in love with right away and can actually identify with. I'm just saying that from an objective, writing standpoint, DH is better--the worst episodes were about on par with the worst episodes of early BtVS (see: "Reptile Boy," etc.), but the great episodes of DH were, again, from a technical standpoint, better written. Which makes sense, because as faily as he can be sometimes, Joss has learned a lot since then. I'm sure he must have been confused as to why people didn't instantly connect with his show, but DUH JOSS. IT'S THE CHARACTERS, STUPID. Which DH ended up having some great ones, but it took a while to connect with them.
Of course, I'm more of a later season fan of BtVS, so we probably disagree there. ;)
(I am weeping with sorrow over the thought of how much more awesome Topher's arc would have been had we had more seasons to explore it. *huggles him*)
The "small group of misfits fight in a post-apocalyptic world against seemingly impossible odds" is a narrative kink of mine. Maaaaajor narrative kink. Like, bulletproof. So I could have watched season after season of the stuff leading up to E2: the group holed up in the dollhouse, then making their way to Tuscan, the building of Neuropolis, the resistance fighting, the creation of Safe Haven, Topher slowly losing his mind, Adelle softening and becoming more of a leader, Priya and Tony's romance and then falling out--heck, I might have even gotten interested in the whole Echo/Ballard thing eventually.
Gah. Now I'm depressed.
(I'm sure you are. *pats head* I switched Summer Glau icons. Isn't this one pretty?)
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DUH JOSS. IT'S THE CHARACTERS, STUPID.
AHAHA. YES. I just think it took too long for everyone to get somewhere, you know? Topher was creepy for too long, the Dolls were victimized and agency-less for too long, son on and so forth. I appreciate slow-paced stuff, but there's such a thing as not enough for too long.
(God bless you, Topher Brink. IT'S LIKE SPIKE EXCEPT HE HAS NO SPINOFF TO BE RESURRECTED ON OMG.)
Epitaphverse would have been fantaaaaastic as its own show. I would SHAVE MY HEAD to see Alpha's gradual turn to the side of good.
(It is indeed quite gorgeous! Man, I'm thisclose to just mailing you my DVDs. I NEED YOU TO SEE IT SO WE CAN CONVERSE ABOUT MANY THINGS. Also, I expect that you will love the character of Derek. Something about him and his manpain just says 'Lauren will fangirl this one, too' to me.)
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Oh, and the lesbians-are-okay-but-god-forbid-we-have-a-canon-gay-guy thing chafes, too. FEH. Yeah, the lack of gay guys almost undermines the fact that he actually treats his lesbians with a certain amount of respect--i.e. they aren't making out for guys' enjoyment. Because the fact that he's okay with that but not the other...*sigh*
I crit because I love, I swear. Me, too!
Topher was creepy for too long, the Dolls were victimized and agency-less for too long, son on and so forth. I appreciate slow-paced stuff, but there's such a thing as not enough for too long. Exactly. I desperately wanted to care about the characters, but it took sooo long.
(HE IS SO LIKE SPIKE. He starts out as the villain and dies the hero, saving the whole world. Gah. So beautiful.)
I WOULD SHAVE MY HEAD AS WELL! I can't believe I forgot about good-yet-still-badass-Alpha! The exchange with Victor was my FAVORITE THING EVER. And then the asking for a favor? GAH. HE'S SO AWESOME.
(I know, I know! I started it and just couldn't get into it, which makes me sad because everyone ever loves it! I will try again soon. I'm watching Being Human right now, but I should be caught up soon. Maybe after that I'll give it another try?
Also, I expect that you will love the character of Derek. Something about him and his manpain just says 'Lauren will fangirl this one, too' to me. You know just what to say to me, don't you? I always need another character to fangirl.)
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A lot of people were irritated by Alpha's unexplained turn, I know, but it was so perfectly written and acted that I can forgive it. Like! That's exactly how Alpha would be, if he was good instead of evil! *hands*
(The first few eps are a little slow, but then it gets SO GOOD, and apart from a handful in the middle s2 of SCC is near-perfection. Like, even if you don't think s1 gets SO GOOD, omg please promise me you will check out s2 anyone. BECAUSE REALLY IT'S SO GREAT. The premiere alone pushed me from "oh yes that is a show with Summer kicking ass that I enjoy once in awhile because it has Summer kicking ass" to "I MEAN WOW WHEN DID THIS SHOW GET THIS GOOD."
Seriously! I just think you will love him! He's snarky and PTSDish and he doesn't grasp why Sarah won't let him blow up City Hall at one point! His relationship with Cameron is full of hate and suspicion and it's awesome! asdfjkl;;;; okay i'm finished now.)
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but it was so perfectly written and acted that I can forgive it. Like! That's exactly how Alpha would be, if he was good instead of evil! *hands*
Exactly! He was still so Alpha: just good! Yay!
(I will do it! Eventually! And of course report back to you immediately!
He's snarky and PTSDish and he doesn't grasp why Sarah won't let him blow up City Hall at one point! His relationship with Cameron is full of hate and suspicion and it's awesome Sounds like my kinda guy!)
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I swear to God that his exchange with Tony where he was all OMG WHY WOULD YOU DO THAT TO YOUR FACE and Tony was just like "........" was one of my most favoritest Dollhouse moments of all time. Alpha is too great for words.
(LAUREN. You know this .gif here?:
Why yes, the off-camera person Riverbot is making her unimpressed-while-dining-on-pancakes!face at is Derek. They're not my 'ship, but I will never stop fangirling their interaction anyway.)
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(THAT STORY IS STUPID. YOU ARE WRONG, FANBOY.)
YESYESYES! That was my favorite moment, too! ALPHA! And the look on Enver's face!
They're not my 'ship, but I will never stop fangirling their interaction anyway I have some not-ships like this! Oh, you're so getting me into this!
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I think he has a fascination with sex, period. And I hate saying it, and I used to yell at other people for saying it, but... I think he does. As I said before, even in the early Buffy seasons, Buffy dressed like she was on her way to a nightclub. At fifteen. Can we say ew? I know a lot of teenagers dress like that, but not the "strong kickass girl" Joss meant for Buffy to be. Then later on, Buffy had that creepy thing with Spike, although apparently that was mostly Marti Noxon (Nixon?)
In fairness to Inara, I do think the intention was for her to be more of a spiritual figure. And I can see that. But it was still a bit creepy.
I like Joss, I do. I just think that while he may be a male feminist, he's also obsessed with women who wear skimpy clothing and give themselves away to just any man. That's creepy.
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Although I'm a really big fan of S6 of BtVS. I find the relationship between Buffy and Spike in that season really compelling and nuanced, as twisted as it was. It definitely wasn't healthy, but it was endlessly fascinating, and very real (I've watched people suffering from emotional problems--bipolar disorder, etc.--use sex in a way very similar to the way clinically depressed Buffy acts there). And I lovelovelovelovelove all the gender role inverting that was going on there.
People "blame" Marti Noxon for S6, but the buck always stops with Joss. "Seeing Red" was her idea (and I still think it was a bad one), but Joss had the final say on everything.
In fairness to Inara, I do think the intention was for her to be more of a spiritual figure. And I can see that. But it was still a bit creepy. Agreed.
I just think that while he may be a male feminist, he's also obsessed with women who wear skimpy clothing and give themselves away to just any man. I've definitely had some conversations before about how I dislike the way he says he wants to tell women's stories--but what he really wants to do is tell the stories of conventionally attractive young women. Which was why I was glad to see both Adelle and November/Mellie on DH. Because even though they're both gorgeous, one is a little older and one is less of the Hollywood style of attractiveness. It was a good first step--now I want him to go further.
But I do think he definitely has an interest in prostitution specifically, and as I am not a fan of the institution for many reasons (though I do absolutely hate the demonization and othering of women who either choose or are forced into that lifestyle), that squicks me.
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This. Of course, I then remembered that even in Joss's earlier shows he's had sex where he could fit it - Inara being a "companion", and Buffy dressed pretty wild for a teenager in seasons one and two (she toned it down in season three), and then had that creepy "relationship" with Spike in the sixth season. Still, that's also what drove a lot of people away from Buffy, and that's what drove people away from Dollhouse. Even I was driven away - and didn't get back into it until a friend of mine convinced me the show did eventually become less about Dollsex and more to the real point. I was so close to missing out on something truly wonderful though.
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So...has Joss gone soft on us? This pretty much makes TWO happy end game couples for him. Along with a father trying his damnedest not to suck.
TOOOOPHER. And the last thing he was was the remembrance wall...
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DEAR GOD I HOPE HE HAS. It may be the actual depiction of a father that comes through that most surprises me and pleases me. Joss must have daddy issues.
I loved that he turned around and saw all the people he's saving. OH TOPHER.
...I might have to steal that icon.
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"Can I help you burn stuff?"
My kid has already made sketches for her "Tech Head" Comic-Con outfit, so please send all dead flash drives, so that she can put tape labels on them for "goodness" and "mercy" and probably "hope" and "charity" as well. *falls over*
Am I the only one watching Echo lose it over Paul and thinking here is the missing scene of Buffy after Spike's (supposed) demise? *whimpers*
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Nope, the whole speech was classic Buffy - especially the "I am always left alone" part and all the regrets for what she never said.
Plus, Ballard was called "Big Bad" Ballard. Joss left a bigger trail of breadcrumbs than Hansel and Gretel over the two of them being surrogates for Spike and Buffy.
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Spike'sBallards death.I don't know what got into Joss.
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And I call bull on Buffy's response, btw ;)
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I soooo do, too. He was the closest she was to anybody for those last two years on the show. She's just being typically Buffy and not wanting to voice her emotions.
Btw, that icon makes me grin like a loon whenever you use it. Randy+Joan are love!
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We are of one brain then *nod*
He was the closest she was to anybody for those last two years on the show.
Love or hate Spuffy, this is a fact that's pretty damn hard to refute.
*grins maniacally with you*
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And yet people constantly try to do it! I hate the whole "she cared about him, but she definitely didn't love him" thing. It's EVERYWHERE!
I am glad you used that icon again, because it's adorableness just diffused my rage!
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This makes me scratch my head. I'm convinced these people are operating from a completely different definition of love. Thing is, there is no 'correct' way to love someone, and frankly, the fact that Buffy's particular connection with Spike doesn't fit into some people's idea of 'love' isn't worth much of a damn, really. It's like how people say that Angel and Darla never really loved each other, despite the fact that they were together 150 years, Angel went through The freaking Trial to try and save her life, etcetera etcetera. It baffles the mind. And of course, what Buffy and Spike had couldn't be love, and the fact that they put each other through so much shit and yet somehow ultimately stood by each other though everything was a total fluke, right? Right. Gotcha.
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OH YES. I love Angel/Darla. He loves her a great deal, but she's so broken and twisted. In my mind, she's the great love of his life.
I think people have such a narrow definition of what love is (especially romantic love), a Bella+Edward sort of thing, that they're incapable of seeing other manifestations of it. Either that, or their shippiness blinds them.
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Oh, WORD. Yes. ::hates E/B:: It's the ingrained notion of fairytale love that society holds up as the ultimate ideal that people should strive for. Disheartening.
I absolutely agree about D/A. (Heh, didn't Darla even joke that they were 'soulmates' after she was brought back by W&H?) Anyhow, it was OTP like nobody's business.
And, yay rant! *goes to check it out*
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It's the ingrained notion of fairytale love that society holds up as the ultimate ideal that people should strive for. Disheartening.
Disheartening is just the right word for it.
I rarely find Angel interesting. But whenever Darla's in the room (like whenever Spike's in the room) I SIT UP AND TAKE NOTICE. She's the only one of his relationships I really cared about.
Hee! I love how I sort of commanded you over there. But I don't think anyone but
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I completely agree with your rant. And while reading the comments, it occurred to me that there are still probably a ton of Bangel shippers who honestly believe that Buffy *should*, to this day, love Angel more, and support the idea of them pining for each other all this time. Then I had a rage blackout and had to go drink some water for a while. (A rare occurrence, because I really could care less about what other people think usually, but said idea is so insulting to two characters I care deeply about that I will never not be baffled by it.) /own rant
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Then I had a rage blackout and had to go drink some water for a while. (A rare occurrence, because I really could care less about what other people think usually, but said idea is so insulting to two characters I care deeply about that I will never not be baffled by it.) /own rant
YEEEEESSSSS. I'm normally pretty live-and-let live re: fandom preferences (at least in "public;" in my own journal, it's a different story), but I totally, totally agree.
Also, I can't understand why the whole "BUFFY LUVS ANGEL 4EVA!!1!" thing is so prevalent everywhere outside of Spike-fandom. Every time you read an article or essay or blog-entry...it's all about how "ANGEL IS HER ONE TRUE LOVE OMG" and I'm all, ""Seriously? Am I missing the part where our hero growing up is a bad thing?
Of course, these are probably the same people who think that Spike's character was completely ruined after the chip and that he was soooo much better when he was evil and being soft is such a baaaaad thing, etc., etc., etc. excuse me while I vomit.
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Every time you read an article or essay or blog-entry...it's all about how "ANGEL IS HER ONE TRUE LOVE OMG"
It's got to be the effect of marketing. B/A, truthfully, is probably the most marketable thing about BtVS, and Lord knows they've been milked. (It's interesting to think about, because before venturing into fandom, I always assumed that B/A was the preferred fandom pairing. But now? I really don't think they are any more popular than S/B. And Angel is definitely not more popular than Spike. Then again, I could be completely, completely off.) I have noticed that the later seasons get virtually zero attention in media, and S2-3 are treated as the apex of the show or something. Meh. I say meh.
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I suspect that you might be correct.
I really don't think they are any more popular than S/B. And Angel is definitely not more popular than Spike. Then again, I could be completely, completely off. I think as far as hardcore shipping goes, there might be more S/B, actually. But I think if you asked just the average fan who really has no strong emotions either way, they'd probably say, "Meh. I like Buffy/Angel more." Or maybe that's just on whedonesque? I could be wrong.
I have noticed that the later seasons get virtually zero attention in media, and S2-3 are treated as the apex of the show or something. Meh. I say meh.
That makes me really, really angry. I know it shouldn't, but it does. Especially because, other than a few fabulous episodes, I think S3 is boring and the later seasons are far richer and more nuanced.
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LOL. I should have been clearer. I got bored with *trying* to sleep. (Insomniac.)
I think as far as hardcore shipping goes, there might be more S/B, actually.
Yeah. I think you're right. (Which makes me stupidly gleeful, I have to admit it.)
But I think if you asked just the average fan who really has no strong emotions either way, they'd probably say, "Meh. I like Buffy/Angel more."
Huh. Obviously, I get that B/A, uh, goes down easier than S/B at certain points (I imagine S6 turned a lot of people off). However, I always thought that the overall S/B dynamic is more appealing in a broader sense. (Or maybe the B/A dynamic is so NOT appealing to me personally that it's clouding my view?) I mean, the snarky, antagonistic ship? Uber popular in general fandom. And S/B go through MANY different stages, so if one hated their dysfunction in S6, for instance, one would probably like the more conventional romance of S7. Whereas B/A, as far as I can see, appeals to one type (the True Love/gothic romance thing).
But most significant of all, I feel: the B/A chemistry is subjective and varies depending on your view. As much as people rave about it, I've come across just as many who dispute its existence. (I personally see very little authentic spark or sexual chemistry between them. Unpopular opinion.) S/B on the other hand, it's pretty much universally agreed that they have IT, even from those who hate the union. (Hey, they didn't top that TV Guide Hottest Love Scenes for nothing!) Then again, who knows, I could just be plain wrong. (Though I doubt it.) ;)
the later seasons are far richer and more nuanced
No argument here. Fact is, S2-3 was probably the height of BtVS popularity, which means the later seasons get overlooked. I do feel that that the show is more accessible to the mainstream in the earlier seasons. However, it's not for nothing that the parts of the show that generate the most discussion/debate/analysis are the LATER SEASONS.
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Oh, that's so cool! I bet her costume will be so cool! She's obviously way creative, and I am jealous!
Am I the only one watching Echo lose it over Paul and thinking here is the missing scene of Buffy after Spike's (supposed) demise? *whimpers* I rewatched it after reading this comment, and you're so right. Word for word, it could have been Spike and Buffy, and now I'm depressed unless I tell myself that Buffy had a similar offscreen reaction (preferably with Faith in the room, just because). I love that you noticed that.
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True but I bet Adelle was proud of his sacrifice.
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