The part of me that's all YEEEEEEEEEEEEEEESSSSSSSSSSSS about Tony/Priya (THEY HAVE A BABY! THEY STILL LOOOOOVE EACH OTHER) is conflict with the part of me that's all NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO about Topher (MY BAAAABY!).
AW MAN I KNOW. There are some people on my flist who think this show is kind of vile, and I...can easily see where they're coming from. I remember Joss talking in an interview about how the sexual themes of the show were what he was interested in exploring and FOX made him tone it down and that bugged him, and I was like, "Oh, Joss, no. The squick there is what drove so much of your usually hardcore fanbase away."
I also remember someone making a crack was something along the lines of "it's like there's this guy who draws really good pictures of kittens, and you love his work, and then he draws the worst kitten ever, maybe it's a kitten inside out, and you don't understand what happened." Which, there were lots of things about the show I did like, but...yeah. Yeah.
I read that interview, and it disturbed me greatly. Apparently he wanted to get into the customers' heads? UH JOSS DID YOU MISS THE MEMO? THEY WERE CREEEPERS.
Thank you, FOX, for that one thing. We really dodged a bullet.
I can also definitely see where your friends are coming from; I was often at that place myself. But Topher's arc alone redeems it for me.
Ha! Kittens! I am amused. I just can't get over how uneven it was. It blows my mind. The things I loved, I loved so hard, and the things that sucked, sucked so hard and then there was blahness...
But as someone pointed out, it was still, overall, better than the comparable first 26 episodes of BtVS, honestly. Barring "Prophecy Girl," nothing in the first 26 episodes of BtVS could match the emotional intensity of "Belonging" or of Topher's arc.
Of course, then came "Innocence" and such, and the show just didn't stop being awesome. It would have been interesting to see if it would have eventually become as awesome as BtVS. I doubt it, mostly because of the themes, but it still could have been great.
Seriously, Joss! I sat uncomfortably through the constant rape-vibe for the interesting characterization and the show's mythology and the actually-good bits! I have zero interest in sitting inside the minds of the rapists themselves. Like, I'm not sure I could even keep watching if they went there. This show is so much better when it goes the way of conspiracy stuff and what having a 'soul' actually means and stops playing up the prostitution angle. I think that it would have been better for the show overall if it had started out with some kind of 'no sex allowed' deal. When the first trailer was released, so much of my flist thought it looked awesome, and then when the show itself turned out to be weird softcore stuff the same people went "um. No thank you." Just. ARGH.
I see what you're saying about Dollhouse's run being more of a sucker-punch than BtVS, though I personally disagree - I mean, yeah, DH had way more drama and darkness going on, but one of my favorite things about early Buffy is the sweet, campy fun. The oldschool seasons of BtVS are some of my favorite TV ever.
It would have been interesting to see if it would have eventually become as awesome as BtVS. I doubt it, mostly because of the themes, but it still could have been great. Word. Dollhouse, I think, has too many fundamental problems to ever be pure greatness like the best of BtVS, but it's hit the right notes a few times and it would've been cool to see it really hit its stride.
(I'm still bitter about SCC, but that is another can of worms altogether. ;_____:)
I think Joss has a thing for prostitution. See: Inara. And I think it's one of his major fails, because he's in the privileged position as a man, and he'll never be able to get past that to explore it.
I think that it would have been better for the show overall if it had started out with some kind of 'no sex allowed' deal. YES.
Oh, I found the early seasons of BtVS much more enjoyable because of that sweet, campy fun you mention, plus the characters that you fall in love with right away and can actually identify with. I'm just saying that from an objective, writing standpoint, DH is better--the worst episodes were about on par with the worst episodes of early BtVS (see: "Reptile Boy," etc.), but the great episodes of DH were, again, from a technical standpoint, better written. Which makes sense, because as faily as he can be sometimes, Joss has learned a lot since then. I'm sure he must have been confused as to why people didn't instantly connect with his show, but DUH JOSS. IT'S THE CHARACTERS, STUPID. Which DH ended up having some great ones, but it took a while to connect with them.
Of course, I'm more of a later season fan of BtVS, so we probably disagree there. ;)
(I am weeping with sorrow over the thought of how much more awesome Topher's arc would have been had we had more seasons to explore it. *huggles him*)
The "small group of misfits fight in a post-apocalyptic world against seemingly impossible odds" is a narrative kink of mine. Maaaaajor narrative kink. Like, bulletproof. So I could have watched season after season of the stuff leading up to E2: the group holed up in the dollhouse, then making their way to Tuscan, the building of Neuropolis, the resistance fighting, the creation of Safe Haven, Topher slowly losing his mind, Adelle softening and becoming more of a leader, Priya and Tony's romance and then falling out--heck, I might have even gotten interested in the whole Echo/Ballard thing eventually.
Gah. Now I'm depressed.
(I'm sure you are. *pats head* I switched Summer Glau icons. Isn't this one pretty?)
YES. Along with the racefail and the mental illness fail (I love River, this you know, but I can also see that she is not the most accurate or sensitive depiction of paranoid schizophrenia ever). Oh, and the lesbians-are-okay-but-god-forbid-we-have-a-canon-gay-guy thing chafes, too. FEH. I crit because I love, I swear.
DUH JOSS. IT'S THE CHARACTERS, STUPID. AHAHA. YES. I just think it took too long for everyone to get somewhere, you know? Topher was creepy for too long, the Dolls were victimized and agency-less for too long, son on and so forth. I appreciate slow-paced stuff, but there's such a thing as not enough for too long.
(God bless you, Topher Brink. IT'S LIKE SPIKE EXCEPT HE HAS NO SPINOFF TO BE RESURRECTED ON OMG.)
Epitaphverse would have been fantaaaaastic as its own show. I would SHAVE MY HEAD to see Alpha's gradual turn to the side of good.
(It is indeed quite gorgeous! Man, I'm thisclose to just mailing you my DVDs. I NEED YOU TO SEE IT SO WE CAN CONVERSE ABOUT MANY THINGS. Also, I expect that you will love the character of Derek. Something about him and his manpain just says 'Lauren will fangirl this one, too' to me.)
OMG YES. You just named most of the problems that I have with his issues. And despite the fact that I love his crazy characters (Dru, River, Fred-when-she-was-crazy, Topher, Spike-in-the-basement, etc.), the very fact that there are so many...says things.
Oh, and the lesbians-are-okay-but-god-forbid-we-have-a-canon-gay-guy thing chafes, too. FEH. Yeah, the lack of gay guys almost undermines the fact that he actually treats his lesbians with a certain amount of respect--i.e. they aren't making out for guys' enjoyment. Because the fact that he's okay with that but not the other...*sigh*
I crit because I love, I swear. Me, too!
Topher was creepy for too long, the Dolls were victimized and agency-less for too long, son on and so forth. I appreciate slow-paced stuff, but there's such a thing as not enough for too long. Exactly. I desperately wanted to care about the characters, but it took sooo long.
(HE IS SO LIKE SPIKE. He starts out as the villain and dies the hero, saving the whole world. Gah. So beautiful.)
I WOULD SHAVE MY HEAD AS WELL! I can't believe I forgot about good-yet-still-badass-Alpha! The exchange with Victor was my FAVORITE THING EVER. And then the asking for a favor? GAH. HE'S SO AWESOME.
(I know, I know! I started it and just couldn't get into it, which makes me sad because everyone ever loves it! I will try again soon. I'm watching Being Human right now, but I should be caught up soon. Maybe after that I'll give it another try?
Also, I expect that you will love the character of Derek. Something about him and his manpain just says 'Lauren will fangirl this one, too' to me. You know just what to say to me, don't you? I always need another character to fangirl.)
Man, I don't even know what frustrates me the most. The lack of gay men, the weird 'crazy' stereotypes he pulls over and over (even if I love all those characters you named, too), the invisible Chinese people in Firefly, the invisible any-minority-ever on BtVS--okay, I cannot try to list a full set of fails or I will be here all night, and I still have homework to do. (REALLY, I CRIT BECAUSE I LOVE.)
A lot of people were irritated by Alpha's unexplained turn, I know, but it was so perfectly written and acted that I can forgive it. Like! That's exactly how Alpha would be, if he was good instead of evil! *hands*
(The first few eps are a little slow, but then it gets SO GOOD, and apart from a handful in the middle s2 of SCC is near-perfection. Like, even if you don't think s1 gets SO GOOD, omg please promise me you will check out s2 anyone. BECAUSE REALLY IT'S SO GREAT. The premiere alone pushed me from "oh yes that is a show with Summer kicking ass that I enjoy once in awhile because it has Summer kicking ass" to "I MEAN WOW WHEN DID THIS SHOW GET THIS GOOD."
Seriously! I just think you will love him! He's snarky and PTSDish and he doesn't grasp why Sarah won't let him blow up City Hall at one point! His relationship with Cameron is full of hate and suspicion and it's awesome! asdfjkl;;;; okay i'm finished now.)
YESYESYES: all of those fails. They drive me CRAZY!
but it was so perfectly written and acted that I can forgive it. Like! That's exactly how Alpha would be, if he was good instead of evil! *hands* Exactly! He was still so Alpha: just good! Yay!
(I will do it! Eventually! And of course report back to you immediately!
He's snarky and PTSDish and he doesn't grasp why Sarah won't let him blow up City Hall at one point! His relationship with Cameron is full of hate and suspicion and it's awesome Sounds like my kinda guy!)
I remember when I was thirteen and stupid and just getting into fandom, I kept trying to rationalize away all the fails. I am so glad that five years later I have become smarter than that. Because SOME PEOPLE NEVER ARE. (True story: one time I saw someone trying to wank away Firefly's lack of Chinese people with something along the lines of "no, see, if the show had just been able to keep going Joss would have totally cast Asian people eventually! This is just all FOX's fault again!" And I could only...shake my head. I mean, yeah, I like to think Joss is at least smart enough to realize his China-influenced future should feature Chinese characters on a regular basis, but...dude, come on.)
I swear to God that his exchange with Tony where he was all OMG WHY WOULD YOU DO THAT TO YOUR FACE and Tony was just like "........" was one of my most favoritest Dollhouse moments of all time. Alpha is too great for words.
(LAUREN. You know this .gif here?: Why yes, the off-camera person Riverbot is making her unimpressed-while-dining-on-pancakes!face at is Derek. They're not my 'ship, but I will never stop fangirling their interaction anyway.)
Yes! I remember reading a criticism of Firefly and getting super defensive. But I've done a lot of growing up, too, and I lovelovelove being able to balance things now.
(THAT STORY IS STUPID. YOU ARE WRONG, FANBOY.)
YESYESYES! That was my favorite moment, too! ALPHA! And the look on Enver's face!
They're not my 'ship, but I will never stop fangirling their interaction anyway I have some not-ships like this! Oh, you're so getting me into this!
I think he has a fascination with sex, period. And I hate saying it, and I used to yell at other people for saying it, but... I think he does. As I said before, even in the early Buffy seasons, Buffy dressed like she was on her way to a nightclub. At fifteen. Can we say ew? I know a lot of teenagers dress like that, but not the "strong kickass girl" Joss meant for Buffy to be. Then later on, Buffy had that creepy thing with Spike, although apparently that was mostly Marti Noxon (Nixon?)
In fairness to Inara, I do think the intention was for her to be more of a spiritual figure. And I can see that. But it was still a bit creepy.
I like Joss, I do. I just think that while he may be a male feminist, he's also obsessed with women who wear skimpy clothing and give themselves away to just any man. That's creepy.
I don't think it's necessarily bad to have an interest in sex or to want to explore it. Many of my favorite works of literature--say, Dangerous Liaisons or Madam Bovary--explore that very topic. But I do think he's looking at it from a privileged perspective that makes a lot of his interests inherently squicky and self-indulgent--mostly because he thinks he's making some grand feminist statement when he isn't at all.
Although I'm a really big fan of S6 of BtVS. I find the relationship between Buffy and Spike in that season really compelling and nuanced, as twisted as it was. It definitely wasn't healthy, but it was endlessly fascinating, and very real (I've watched people suffering from emotional problems--bipolar disorder, etc.--use sex in a way very similar to the way clinically depressed Buffy acts there). And I lovelovelovelovelove all the gender role inverting that was going on there.
People "blame" Marti Noxon for S6, but the buck always stops with Joss. "Seeing Red" was her idea (and I still think it was a bad one), but Joss had the final say on everything.
In fairness to Inara, I do think the intention was for her to be more of a spiritual figure. And I can see that. But it was still a bit creepy. Agreed.
I just think that while he may be a male feminist, he's also obsessed with women who wear skimpy clothing and give themselves away to just any man. I've definitely had some conversations before about how I dislike the way he says he wants to tell women's stories--but what he really wants to do is tell the stories of conventionally attractive young women. Which was why I was glad to see both Adelle and November/Mellie on DH. Because even though they're both gorgeous, one is a little older and one is less of the Hollywood style of attractiveness. It was a good first step--now I want him to go further.
But I do think he definitely has an interest in prostitution specifically, and as I am not a fan of the institution for many reasons (though I do absolutely hate the demonization and othering of women who either choose or are forced into that lifestyle), that squicks me.
"Oh, Joss, no. The squick there is what drove so much of your usually hardcore fanbase away."
This. Of course, I then remembered that even in Joss's earlier shows he's had sex where he could fit it - Inara being a "companion", and Buffy dressed pretty wild for a teenager in seasons one and two (she toned it down in season three), and then had that creepy "relationship" with Spike in the sixth season. Still, that's also what drove a lot of people away from Buffy, and that's what drove people away from Dollhouse. Even I was driven away - and didn't get back into it until a friend of mine convinced me the show did eventually become less about Dollsex and more to the real point. I was so close to missing out on something truly wonderful though.
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I just wish it hadn't taken that long to get awesome again. This show was so uneven.
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I also remember someone making a crack was something along the lines of "it's like there's this guy who draws really good pictures of kittens, and you love his work, and then he draws the worst kitten ever, maybe it's a kitten inside out, and you don't understand what happened." Which, there were lots of things about the show I did like, but...yeah. Yeah.
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Thank you, FOX, for that one thing. We really dodged a bullet.
I can also definitely see where your friends are coming from; I was often at that place myself. But Topher's arc alone redeems it for me.
Ha! Kittens! I am amused. I just can't get over how uneven it was. It blows my mind. The things I loved, I loved so hard, and the things that sucked, sucked so hard and then there was blahness...
But as someone pointed out, it was still, overall, better than the comparable first 26 episodes of BtVS, honestly. Barring "Prophecy Girl," nothing in the first 26 episodes of BtVS could match the emotional intensity of "Belonging" or of Topher's arc.
Of course, then came "Innocence" and such, and the show just didn't stop being awesome. It would have been interesting to see if it would have eventually become as awesome as BtVS. I doubt it, mostly because of the themes, but it still could have been great.
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I see what you're saying about Dollhouse's run being more of a sucker-punch than BtVS, though I personally disagree - I mean, yeah, DH had way more drama and darkness going on, but one of my favorite things about early Buffy is the sweet, campy fun. The oldschool seasons of BtVS are some of my favorite TV ever.
It would have been interesting to see if it would have eventually become as awesome as BtVS. I doubt it, mostly because of the themes, but it still could have been great.
Word. Dollhouse, I think, has too many fundamental problems to ever be pure greatness like the best of BtVS, but it's hit the right notes a few times and it would've been cool to see it really hit its stride.
(I'm still bitter about SCC, but that is another can of worms altogether. ;_____:)
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I think that it would have been better for the show overall if it had started out with some kind of 'no sex allowed' deal. YES.
Oh, I found the early seasons of BtVS much more enjoyable because of that sweet, campy fun you mention, plus the characters that you fall in love with right away and can actually identify with. I'm just saying that from an objective, writing standpoint, DH is better--the worst episodes were about on par with the worst episodes of early BtVS (see: "Reptile Boy," etc.), but the great episodes of DH were, again, from a technical standpoint, better written. Which makes sense, because as faily as he can be sometimes, Joss has learned a lot since then. I'm sure he must have been confused as to why people didn't instantly connect with his show, but DUH JOSS. IT'S THE CHARACTERS, STUPID. Which DH ended up having some great ones, but it took a while to connect with them.
Of course, I'm more of a later season fan of BtVS, so we probably disagree there. ;)
(I am weeping with sorrow over the thought of how much more awesome Topher's arc would have been had we had more seasons to explore it. *huggles him*)
The "small group of misfits fight in a post-apocalyptic world against seemingly impossible odds" is a narrative kink of mine. Maaaaajor narrative kink. Like, bulletproof. So I could have watched season after season of the stuff leading up to E2: the group holed up in the dollhouse, then making their way to Tuscan, the building of Neuropolis, the resistance fighting, the creation of Safe Haven, Topher slowly losing his mind, Adelle softening and becoming more of a leader, Priya and Tony's romance and then falling out--heck, I might have even gotten interested in the whole Echo/Ballard thing eventually.
Gah. Now I'm depressed.
(I'm sure you are. *pats head* I switched Summer Glau icons. Isn't this one pretty?)
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DUH JOSS. IT'S THE CHARACTERS, STUPID.
AHAHA. YES. I just think it took too long for everyone to get somewhere, you know? Topher was creepy for too long, the Dolls were victimized and agency-less for too long, son on and so forth. I appreciate slow-paced stuff, but there's such a thing as not enough for too long.
(God bless you, Topher Brink. IT'S LIKE SPIKE EXCEPT HE HAS NO SPINOFF TO BE RESURRECTED ON OMG.)
Epitaphverse would have been fantaaaaastic as its own show. I would SHAVE MY HEAD to see Alpha's gradual turn to the side of good.
(It is indeed quite gorgeous! Man, I'm thisclose to just mailing you my DVDs. I NEED YOU TO SEE IT SO WE CAN CONVERSE ABOUT MANY THINGS. Also, I expect that you will love the character of Derek. Something about him and his manpain just says 'Lauren will fangirl this one, too' to me.)
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Oh, and the lesbians-are-okay-but-god-forbid-we-have-a-canon-gay-guy thing chafes, too. FEH. Yeah, the lack of gay guys almost undermines the fact that he actually treats his lesbians with a certain amount of respect--i.e. they aren't making out for guys' enjoyment. Because the fact that he's okay with that but not the other...*sigh*
I crit because I love, I swear. Me, too!
Topher was creepy for too long, the Dolls were victimized and agency-less for too long, son on and so forth. I appreciate slow-paced stuff, but there's such a thing as not enough for too long. Exactly. I desperately wanted to care about the characters, but it took sooo long.
(HE IS SO LIKE SPIKE. He starts out as the villain and dies the hero, saving the whole world. Gah. So beautiful.)
I WOULD SHAVE MY HEAD AS WELL! I can't believe I forgot about good-yet-still-badass-Alpha! The exchange with Victor was my FAVORITE THING EVER. And then the asking for a favor? GAH. HE'S SO AWESOME.
(I know, I know! I started it and just couldn't get into it, which makes me sad because everyone ever loves it! I will try again soon. I'm watching Being Human right now, but I should be caught up soon. Maybe after that I'll give it another try?
Also, I expect that you will love the character of Derek. Something about him and his manpain just says 'Lauren will fangirl this one, too' to me. You know just what to say to me, don't you? I always need another character to fangirl.)
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A lot of people were irritated by Alpha's unexplained turn, I know, but it was so perfectly written and acted that I can forgive it. Like! That's exactly how Alpha would be, if he was good instead of evil! *hands*
(The first few eps are a little slow, but then it gets SO GOOD, and apart from a handful in the middle s2 of SCC is near-perfection. Like, even if you don't think s1 gets SO GOOD, omg please promise me you will check out s2 anyone. BECAUSE REALLY IT'S SO GREAT. The premiere alone pushed me from "oh yes that is a show with Summer kicking ass that I enjoy once in awhile because it has Summer kicking ass" to "I MEAN WOW WHEN DID THIS SHOW GET THIS GOOD."
Seriously! I just think you will love him! He's snarky and PTSDish and he doesn't grasp why Sarah won't let him blow up City Hall at one point! His relationship with Cameron is full of hate and suspicion and it's awesome! asdfjkl;;;; okay i'm finished now.)
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but it was so perfectly written and acted that I can forgive it. Like! That's exactly how Alpha would be, if he was good instead of evil! *hands*
Exactly! He was still so Alpha: just good! Yay!
(I will do it! Eventually! And of course report back to you immediately!
He's snarky and PTSDish and he doesn't grasp why Sarah won't let him blow up City Hall at one point! His relationship with Cameron is full of hate and suspicion and it's awesome Sounds like my kinda guy!)
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I swear to God that his exchange with Tony where he was all OMG WHY WOULD YOU DO THAT TO YOUR FACE and Tony was just like "........" was one of my most favoritest Dollhouse moments of all time. Alpha is too great for words.
(LAUREN. You know this .gif here?:
Why yes, the off-camera person Riverbot is making her unimpressed-while-dining-on-pancakes!face at is Derek. They're not my 'ship, but I will never stop fangirling their interaction anyway.)
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(THAT STORY IS STUPID. YOU ARE WRONG, FANBOY.)
YESYESYES! That was my favorite moment, too! ALPHA! And the look on Enver's face!
They're not my 'ship, but I will never stop fangirling their interaction anyway I have some not-ships like this! Oh, you're so getting me into this!
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I think he has a fascination with sex, period. And I hate saying it, and I used to yell at other people for saying it, but... I think he does. As I said before, even in the early Buffy seasons, Buffy dressed like she was on her way to a nightclub. At fifteen. Can we say ew? I know a lot of teenagers dress like that, but not the "strong kickass girl" Joss meant for Buffy to be. Then later on, Buffy had that creepy thing with Spike, although apparently that was mostly Marti Noxon (Nixon?)
In fairness to Inara, I do think the intention was for her to be more of a spiritual figure. And I can see that. But it was still a bit creepy.
I like Joss, I do. I just think that while he may be a male feminist, he's also obsessed with women who wear skimpy clothing and give themselves away to just any man. That's creepy.
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Although I'm a really big fan of S6 of BtVS. I find the relationship between Buffy and Spike in that season really compelling and nuanced, as twisted as it was. It definitely wasn't healthy, but it was endlessly fascinating, and very real (I've watched people suffering from emotional problems--bipolar disorder, etc.--use sex in a way very similar to the way clinically depressed Buffy acts there). And I lovelovelovelovelove all the gender role inverting that was going on there.
People "blame" Marti Noxon for S6, but the buck always stops with Joss. "Seeing Red" was her idea (and I still think it was a bad one), but Joss had the final say on everything.
In fairness to Inara, I do think the intention was for her to be more of a spiritual figure. And I can see that. But it was still a bit creepy. Agreed.
I just think that while he may be a male feminist, he's also obsessed with women who wear skimpy clothing and give themselves away to just any man. I've definitely had some conversations before about how I dislike the way he says he wants to tell women's stories--but what he really wants to do is tell the stories of conventionally attractive young women. Which was why I was glad to see both Adelle and November/Mellie on DH. Because even though they're both gorgeous, one is a little older and one is less of the Hollywood style of attractiveness. It was a good first step--now I want him to go further.
But I do think he definitely has an interest in prostitution specifically, and as I am not a fan of the institution for many reasons (though I do absolutely hate the demonization and othering of women who either choose or are forced into that lifestyle), that squicks me.
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This. Of course, I then remembered that even in Joss's earlier shows he's had sex where he could fit it - Inara being a "companion", and Buffy dressed pretty wild for a teenager in seasons one and two (she toned it down in season three), and then had that creepy "relationship" with Spike in the sixth season. Still, that's also what drove a lot of people away from Buffy, and that's what drove people away from Dollhouse. Even I was driven away - and didn't get back into it until a friend of mine convinced me the show did eventually become less about Dollsex and more to the real point. I was so close to missing out on something truly wonderful though.