lirazel | (no subject)

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It just blows my mind that this keeps happening--SM treats its employees like shit, so much so that the employees take legal action to get away from them--and yet the company (and the industry at large) learns absolutely nothing. They didn't learn anything from Shinhwa, they didn't learn anything from Han Geng, they didn't learn anything from JYJ, and they won't learn anything from Kris. Nothing's going to change at SM or industry-wide until the law forces them to change or until they can't make money off of mistreating dreaming young people, and I don't foresee either of those things happening any time soon. I'm glad Kris is getting out while he can. I'm sure he didn't make the decision lightly.

What I really want to know is whether the female idols are treated better or (more likely) they're treated so much worse that they have less leverage (emotional or otherwise) to leave when they want to. Because it's significant to me that only guys have gotten out.

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You've said it all.

#team idols

Forever most worried about the girls.

Always most worried about the girls. When I let myself think about it, I think the companies must blackmail them, and the idea of what they could possibly be using to blackmail them with is so horrifying I don't even let myself go there.

Yeah. To be completely honest, I don't see a scenario in which professionally objectified young female aren't also at constant risk of being physically taken advantage of - in an environment that makes so much benefit off of selling sexy virgins. The idol world is such an unhealthy cocoon that uses individual ambition (certainly one of the best blackmail cards there ever was: "if you want that, you'll do this for me") to justify insanity. The complete absence of body positivity would be enough to tell that there must be a horrifying amount of blackmail and abuse - be it solely through coercion. But it's so much more than that. It's sasaengs, it's never seeing their families, it's absurd daily schedules, it's constant pressure to do well in order to sell well... So when you mix rape culture with idols-being-property culture, the result must be something none of us like to think about to closely :'(

(Also. Everybody talking about how this is "such a dick move, just in the middle of promotions" makes me homicidal. What the actual fuck is wrong with people.)

Yes. Yes to all of that. If there's one thing I know for a fact, it's that institutions without complete transparency always end up using their power to abuse women and take sexual advantage of the vulnerable, and the more authoritarian the institution is, the worse the abuse. I genuinely worry for the women and girls in this industry.

Everybody talking about how this is "such a dick move, just in the middle of promotions" makes me homicidal. What the actual fuck is wrong with people.

I'm sure this has been in the works for a while and it just so happens that now is the moment when the paperwork gets finalized and everything. It's not like he purposefully picked this moment. People need to quit privileging their own enjoyment of something over other people's well being.

I'm fine with Kris looking out for himself cause not like SM is known for their awesome working environment. With that said, I do think there is calculation in the lawsuit coming to light now because with the world attention on EXO due to their comeback, Kris would have more leverage in getting resolution faster since SM probably just want this to be taken care of immediately. I don't blame him if this is actual reason for the timing because hey, if you gonna go against such a huge conglomerate, you need every card you can stack up in your deck.

At the same time, I do think it does suck for the other members because besides the emotional turmoil of having a bandmate left they will also have to deal with the physical stress of re-arranging their formations, routines, etc. And for such a dance-centric group, I could see why the rest of EXO is having a huge case of FML! right now. So if the others are lashing out at him, I sympathize, especially when you remember how young a lot of them still are. I'm a lot older and still flail when my expectations are not being met so who can blame the streak of disappointment and anger that's streaking its way through EXO and its fandom. However, that does not excuse cruelty or assholery reactions to any involved except maybe SM.

I don't blame him if this is actual reason for the timing because hey, if you gonna go against such a huge conglomerate, you need every card you can stack up in your deck.

Agreed. I just think it's a pretty big leap to assume that the timing was a deliberate thing when we don't have any evidence of that.

I don't have a problem with the members being hurt, of course--how they're reacting is none of my business and is something that should be private. I mean, look at DBSK: I think JYJ were perfectly entitled to do exactly what they did, but I also feel real sympathy for the emotional upheaval Yunho and Changmin went through. The problems are all caused by the company anyway, the company that treated Kris/JYJ so badly they felt their only option was to get the hell out of there. So the netizens' anger should be against the company for putting them in that position, not any of the members, who are just trying to make it through life.

can you tell me more about shitty things sm's done/the reason these guys are leaving? i have no doubts the idol industry is rotted to hell; i just haven't heard about specific cases and i'm curious.

The thing is, we don't tend to get the details. We get vague statements about contracts and stuff.

Shinhwa's contract ran out and they wanted to move to a new company (afaik, they did not state why) and had to sue for the right to use their name there (Eric taught himself law so that he could defend them in court. They won. I'm kind of in awe of him--like that is the ultimate Leader).

Here's what wiki says about Han Geng:

Han filed a lawsuit against SME to terminate his contract, citing that the 13-year contract was unlawful, overly restrictive, and unfair. His arguments include being forced to do things outside of his contract and being refused sick leave, which led to kidney illness.

JYJ phrased it this way:

stated that the 13-year contract was excessively long, schedules were held out without the confirmation or permission of the members, contract terms have been extended and changed without their knowledge or consent and that the group's earnings were not fairly distributed to the members

In response, SM Entertainment called a press conference and claimed that the lawsuit was not about unfair contracts or human rights, but motivated by the three members’ greed to pursue their cosmetics business uninhibited by the restrictions their exclusive contract with SM bound them with.

As for Kris, afaik there haven't been any details released.

The thing is, the idols have to make the lawsuits about unfairness with money/contracts or whatever because just being horribly, horribly mistreated isn't against the law. So we don't know how much of what they did was motivated by the unfairness with the money/contracts and how much of it has to do with emotional abuse or just ridiculous schedules and exhaustion and overworking.

UGH, that's so wild and concerning as hell -- i knew when i got into kpop that idols were on tight, tight work schedules, and the 9muses documentary just further confirmed that actual abuse is involved, so i guess i sort of already knew about this in the back of my head but just......yikes. it's not surprising but it is horrifying. and of COURSE sm would make it a thing of "oh, they're just being selfish/greedy when they originally promised us this thing" omfg becoming a kpop idol is LITERALLY LIKE MAKING A DEAL WITH THE DEVIL. and this on top of the invasive behavior of fans and the extra horrifying stuff sasaengs do? honestly, the cult of celebrity in america is fucked-up and unhealthy, but the kpop industry makes it look downright tame. that's scary as hell.

(plus the ways scandals work -- here in the usa, something like being caught in a relationship would just be a saucy bit of news that would fuel public interest in someone, but that kind of thing could RUIN AN IDOL'S CAREER. it's so, so genuinely frightening. and makes me extra mad about internet haters, like, these people get enough hell from everyone who's supposed to be on their side, you don't need to make it worse with snide comments.)

I could not agree more with every word you write.

Let's not forget that Hangeng saw his only choice other than leaving SM was suicide.

Shit, I hadn't heard that. That's unbelievable.

You'd think that after all this time--and multiple similar lawsuits--they'll learn *sigh*

(oh god I can't take that crying Myungsoo mood gif I'm going to start crying *clings to you*)

*hugs you tight* Crying!Myungsoo shatters my heart!

ITA completely with everything you are saying. I know dumb ass fans are gonna be all, "This just shows how perfect soshi is!" and I'm going to rme to the ceiling. Frankly, the only response these events elicit is to, like you, wonder about the treatment of female idols and what they put up with.

It's interesting to read this entry right above another on my flist taking the "Kris is being selfish for ditching the other 11" POV. Even if he wasn't my bias, I'd find that POV kind of naive and overly simplistic. Like you said in a comment, legal issues take a long ass time. And I wonder if the leak and subsequent media circus accelerated things more. I don't believe that any of this was carefully calculated and timed, b/c I cannot for the life of me understand why anyone would choose to subject themselves to this.

The amount of good faith K-pop fans have in shady companies (especially SME, who have a history of this sort of thing) boggles my damn mind, especially to the extent that they attack idols for speaking out against it.

Frankly, the only response these events elicit is to, like you, wonder about the treatment of female idols and what they put up with.

Amen!

b/c I cannot for the life of me understand why anyone would choose to subject themselves to this.
I KNOW. How can people possibly think he made this decision lightly? He didn't get pissy and decide to quit and flounce--for one thing, we don't even know if he's leaving yet, but for another, there's no way he didn't think about this long and hard.

The amount of good faith K-pop fans have in shady companies (especially SME, who have a history of this sort of thing) boggles my damn mind, especially to the extent that they attack idols for speaking out against it.

You said it.

No lies detected.

*sad icon usage*

THAT ICON.

jyj wasn't mistreated tho, they left cos of money. always when shit like this goes down it amazes me how people seem to think SM is the ONLY company out there that abuses their idols. all of this is industry-wide and every single damn company out there deprives their idols of sleep, proper diets for growing bodies, healthy perspectives on body image and privacy, plus directly or indirectly restricts their access to their parents and friends. people really need to wake up. SM is shit and will continue to be shit as long as fans keep giving them money. (interesting how nobody ever complains about how bad SM is until something huge like this happens and yet lap up punishing concert tours, multiple comebacks, back-to-back events).

I think that not compensating them properly is absolutely a mistreatment. It's a mistreatment when CEOs of big companies make millions and millions of dollars and the workers who do the actual work can't even bring home a living wage, and I don't see why JYJ's situation is any different, especially considering that we know that SM has had other employees complain of the exact same things. It's a pattern that others have corroborated, so I see no reason to disbelieve JYJ.

On top of that, institutions like this are always corrupt and abusive. Across the board. I know of no exceptions. Perhaps JYJ were no more ill-treated than idols at any other company, but Han Geng was. Like Ranya said, he thought his only other option was suicide. Just because JYJ may or may not have escaped that level of mistreatment doesn't mean others weren't/aren't suffering.

And of course all the other companies are terrible too, and I complain a lot about the schedules the idols are forced to endure. But SM has a consistent record of being so bad that its employees pursue legal action to get away--I know of no other company who has that kind of record. And I make sure not to give them any money, because I don't want to contribute to their abuse of their employees.

i was a geng stan, and followed the jyj saga closely: pls note that i'm in no way saying that they were not mistreated at some level. however, reactions from the rest of the sm artists were very telling. NOBODY accused geng of being selfish when he left because the abuse he endured was undeniable; however the dbsk breakup was extremely acrimonious because other sm artists close to dbsk all spoke out about how their motivations for the split were basically borne of greed. even the dbsk parents weighed in with the same sentiments. once again, i'm not saying SM is innocent in this, because i know what the company is like. however, i'm pretty sure the jyj incident was not purely because SM didnt treat them well. dbsk was bringing home much more than a living wage, btw.

about other companies - there are lots! CCM may well be worse than SM, block b succesfully sued their old company, some of kara's members were going to, even woollim whom some infinite fans seem to think is blameless: there's a reason why epik high left. the infinite boys have also spoken about how inhuman their practice sessions are. SM is absolutely NOT the only company to mistreat its idols. just because nobody is suing woollim (for e.g) doesn't mean shit isn't going down. i believe a lot of idols rationalise the abuse they endure because they can't bring themseves to confront the reality of what's being done to them. my point in the comment wasn't to defend SM in any way, i'm just saying that idol abuse is largely ignored unless something like this happens and we all need to realise that even tho SM is one of the biggest culprits they are.not the only one. and the reason why all of this keeps happening is precisely because fans benefit from the abuse of idols - more concerts, more comebacks, more fansigns. i find that just very hypocritical.

Edited 2014-05-16 14:17 (UTC)

SM is absolutely NOT the only company to mistreat its idols. just because nobody is suing woollim (for e.g) doesn't mean shit isn't going down.

I would never deny that, and I spoke up a lot, say, during that stretch of time when Infinite H was promoting to the point that Dongwoo was literally hallucinating he was so tired. I think it's important to talk about these things all the time, and I try to do that.

i believe a lot of idols rationalise the abuse they endure because they can't bring themseves to confront the reality of what's being done to them.

Absolutely. And just as much as that, there's the fact that for many of them, it's been their dream all their lives, they've sacrificed huge amounts to get to this point, and the sunk costs are too much to actually face. On top of that, the larger culture doesn't seem to disapprove of what's happening to them, so they must think it's just the price they have to pay. I mean, even in Hollywood, where people have more control over their own lives, you'll see a lot of people claim that celebrities should never complain about invasive paparazzi because "they signed up for it/they knew what they were getting into." People seem very willing to sacrifice other people's basic rights if they think those other people are privileged in some way, and I think that's very wrong.

CCM have T-Ara, right? I had forgotten about them because I haven't heard anything about them in a while and I was never invested in any of their artists on a personal level--yes, I'd definitely agree they may be worse.

I'm aware that other idols/groups have taken legal action against their companies, but I don't know of any who have such a consistent record of their idols having to do so. (But my kpop knowledge is limited.) SM is the biggest, most influential company and I think for that reason they do deserve the biggest backlash--which is not at all to say the others don't deserve the same thing.

i'm just saying that idol abuse is largely ignored unless something like this happens and we all need to realise that even tho SM is one of the biggest culprits they are.not the only one. and the reason why all of this keeps happening is precisely because fans benefit from the abuse of idols - more concerts, more comebacks, more fansigns. i find that just very hypocritical.

I definitely do not disagree with you, but I think that's largely irrelevant to my post? I am pretty consistent in saying that I would prefer less activities if it meant the idols could rest, that I think the way the companies overlook sasaengs and other fans invading the idols' lives is unconscionable, etc. I understand your frustration with some of the larger elements of fandom that are given to rumors and hypocrisy, I just don't think that's got anything to do with me, unless you can point out to me some times when I've done that.

oh i never meant that YOU do this, i was just reacting in general cos of all the stupidity that's flying around on tumblr. i'm sorry, i didn't mean to make you feel i was accusing you of anything.

about why SM has a longer record of artistes suing - i had a think about this and i think it's significant that everyone who's sued has gone on to have really successful careers elsewhere. idols from smaller companies can't do this because they don't have the same clout the former SM artistes have built up. that's obviously not the whole picture but i do think it plays a part in why shinhwa, jyj and geng chose to leave. i'm trying to think of a company as big as and that has been around for the same length of time as SM and the only ones i can come up with is probably jyp/yg (tho i'm probably wrong): interesting to note no one from those companies have sued.

sigh, after the geng debacle we all hoped SM would change, and we were hopeful that park youngmin taking over would mean a departure from the old ways. now im just scared for exo's remaining foreign members (especially yixing! god, he reminds me so much of geng it hurts.)

Okay, it sounded like you were taking issue with something I'd done, and I couldn't figure out what it was.

Absolutely I think there's something to the fact that SM can put so much money and publicity into their artists, then their artists are successful and feel that they're in a position where they can put their foot down about things. The CCM artists, for instance, have far less leverage. And yeah, it's interesting that no one from the other two of the big three has sued--though I know it's not for want of mistreatment, as the things I've heard about how GDragon (who I don't like, but feel a lot of sympathy for re: his childhood) was treated. But nothing there was illegal, just emotionally abusive, and afaik there aren't any laws in place against that.

I feel really bad for Yixing--he's been talking a lot about how much he misses his mom. I'm not sure what's worse--him being separated from his mom he adores or Luhan's family turning their backs on him. It's a very sad situation.

it makes me crazy that the kpop industry is so important to korea but there are so few laws in place to protect the very people who are driving the hallyu wave with literally their blood sweat and tears. tiffany says that the govt is very likely involved in all the shady business, which would explain a lot. either that or companies like SM which are chaebol-level can secretly lobby against idol-protection laws.

i don't follow exo, so would you mind telling me about luhan's family turning their backs on yixing? omg ;_;

YES. I'm betting it's just crony-ism, but the rich and powerful always protect each other. Ugh.

Ha, I used ambigious pronoun antecedents--Luhan's family basically did what Hoya's family did and kicked him out, only they haven't come back around now that he's successful. I don't think he sees them at all and he doesn't mention them when the others are talking about their families. From what I understand, he's completely estranged from them. It's really heartbreaking.

oh yeah i heard about that :( poor baby. it still amazes me why people want to be idols. sasaengs, insane schedules, lack of control over your own life and choices - WHY.

I could never. Ever, ever, ever.

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