in which i wax at length about the way fandom should be

[lirazel]

So I’ve had some ~thoughts~ I’ve wanted to share, but I’ll go ahead and tell you that they aren’t unique—they’ve been verbalized many times before, and often by me. But I’ve been wanting for a long time to consolidate my thoughts on Reader Response Theory and fandom courtesy, and I might as well do it, right?

Caveat: this post contains spoilers through all of the episodes of Doctor Who that have been aired. DW isn’t the focus of this post, though, so if you want to skip over the paragraphs where I start talking about RTD and the Moff, you could probably do that and still get the gist of what’s going on here.


Let’s start with a quote:

And lastly, a note on how we engage with less than perfect source material. Unfortunately, there isn't that much out there that is perfect, or even close to it, and in the end we all pick and choose based on a combination of things we like and things we can put up with. We compartmentalise. Sometimes we enjoy elements of canon source even while we might simultaneously think there's a critical point to be made. Sometimes we deal with these issues enough in our offline life that we want to ignore it when we hit fandom. Sometimes it's because we deal with these issues so much in our offline life that we can't ignore it when it crops up in fandom. Sometimes we don't pick up it at all, or disagree when someone else argues that it's problematic. Sometimes we just don't want to engage that day, that month, or ever….

Mileage will vary a lot on everything I've covered. I hope it's clear from this post that I think that's totally okay, and sort of my point. Few things are perfect, and we love them anyway, and sometimes part of our loving them is critiquing them, and sometimes it isn't, and that's fine.

Words of truth, y’all.

Basically, if we sat around and waited for something perfect to invest in—something that wasn’t problematic, something in which every oppressed group was treated perfectly, something that didn’t have any content that could hurt a viewer—we would never be able to invest in anything. We wouldn’t even have fandom. We wouldn’t be able to tell stories.

Because stories, and all art, are created within the context of the society of both the storyteller and the audience. It’s absolutely impossible to divorce them from their context. And all societies are flawed in various ways. Allsocieties. Because societies are made up of people and people are hopelessly flawed. So when those people, operating within their societies, create stories or art or anything else, the product of their creation absolutely will reflect the flaws of both the creator and the larger society, no matter how hard the creator is trying.

And y’all know all that. I’m not telling you anything new. But sometimes I feel like people forget this? They see something that’s really problematic and that hurts them personally and they assume that anyone who actually still likes that thing just doesn’t care about other peoples’ pain. And I don’t think that’s always true. It’s easy to forget that while you’re feeling defensive because of something someone else likes, you’re also enjoying something that causes someone else pain.

If you’re human, you love something that could cause someone else pain. That’s just life as a human being. And it’s something we need to deal with if fandom isn’t going to turn into an ugly place to be.

So let’s talk about something that I love that’s also incredibly problematic. A lot of my friends have given up on The Vampire Diaries. I totally understand this. The fandom is pretty ridiculous and the show seems to revel in killing off women, especially women of color. Some people think the show whitewashes Damon’s actions (but other people don’t see it that way). The love triangle is being drawn out to a stupid extent. There are lots of good reasons to give up on the show. But there’s also some good ones to stay. I stay because I love Bonnie and Caroline and Elena and their relationships with each other, relationships that are fraught and that often waver under the weight of the horrible supernatural stuff they’re going through, but relationships that they also work on. I stay because I find Stefan and Damon’s relationship with each other really, really fascinating. I stay because Katherine is really fun. So while I totally understand why other people are leaving, it still speaks to me enough that I’m staying for the time being, and I hope that those who have thrown in the towel can understand why.

On the other hand, I find Angel the Series really, really, really anti-feminist to the point where I really don’t want to watch it. There are a few things about the show I enjoy (Gunn—when he gets any sort of development, which is rare—Cordy in the early seasons, Lorne, Darla and Dru, Lilah, Connor, Angel acting like a dork, and quite a few scattered episodes), but I’ve reached the point where I feel okay with admitting that I am not a fan of the show. But you know what I love? I love reading pocochina’s thoughts about the show. Love. Because she acknowledges all of the really problematic stuff and is all about calling out the show when it epically fails, but she also loves it anyway. A lot of that love comes from her love of Wes, who I don’t really care for. And it makes me wonder—if I loved Wesley the way she loves him, would I be willing to put up with all that misogynist material for the sake of that character? And the answer to that is…probably. So while the show drives me insane, I appreciate poco’s appreciation for it, and I’d never judge her for loving something I can’t stomach.

Because let’s be honest: a lot of what we’re willing to put up with/overlook is dependent upon how much we’re enjoying the story. For instance: Supernatural was pretty problematic from the beginning. I mean, S1 is full of ladies being fridged left and right, and a lot of the violence against them is very sexual in nature, and it’s all really disturbing. It’s built in to the show from pretty much the beginning. And I knew that from the beginning. And I would never have denied it. But I also really enjoyed the show. I really cared about Dean (and also Sam and Jo and Ellen and Bobby and whoever) and the family relationships spoke to me deeply and I loved how American the show is, intrinsically American, which isn’t something you see a lot in genre shows. So I acknowledged the bad but kept loving the good. Somewhere around S5, though, my enjoyment was flagging. And so when what happened in “Abandon All Hope” happened, that was the last straw. I threw my hands up and had my epic breakup with the show. Two things were happening here: 1) what happened in that episode really, really pissed me off as a human being, a viewer of the show, and a feminist, and 2) I didn’t really are very much about the show to begin with. So it was quite an easy decision to make to give up on it. Interestingly, snickfic has been telling me about what’s happening in S6 of the show, and I’m intrigued again. I might give it another try. This doesn’t mean that I think the show is any less problematic than it was at the point I said goodbye to it. What it does mean is that if the show is interesting enough to me, I might be willing to acknowledge that problematic material and yet embrace the show again anyway. And there is nothing wrong with this.

A week or so ago, I made a mention of disliking "bitter beta males" in a tag on my tumblr. I pretty much immediately got a really passive-aggressive-ly-phrased anonymous comment about how I couldn’t say that since I am fond of Rory Williams. Which seemed ridiculous to me. Not only because the major thing that bothers me about Nice Guys (entitlement) isn’t really all that present in Rory all the time, and not only because I can love the character while disliking the writing for that character (see also: Martha Jones, queen of my heart), but also because…I can dislike an overall trope while still liking an individual that falls within that trope? Or at least I thought I could. Apparently the fandom police don’t think so.

It's something like my relationship with Man Pain. I hatehatehatehatehatehate Angel’s Man Pain, to the point where I just don’t want to watch his show. But I’m a big fan of Fox Mulder, and he’s got loads of Man Pain, too. And honestly, my ability to tolerate that Man Pain probably arises from the fact that I emotionally connect to Mulder and identify with him, whereas I’ve always found Angel annoying and just don’t like him. Preferences play such a huge role in this sort of thing. And liking one character over the other isn’t hypocrisy, unless I’m telling people who like Angel that they’re wrong and they shouldn’t like a character so embued with Man Pain (more on this anon).

And then there’s the perpetual comparisons of RTD and Moffat. CAN THIS ARGUMENT DIE? Seriously. I am so sick of it. Both of these guys are incredibly problematic in real life (from RTD’s frankly sickening dismissal of fans’ reactions to Ianto’s death to Moffat’s really gross comments about Karen Gillan’s attractiveness level) and in their writing. And I think it’s pretty impossible to say which one is worse. Because they’re both bad. Let’s not do that anymore, okay?

Instead, let’s admit that what we’re willing to put up with is so deeply connected to whether the story works for us. I enjoyed a lot of RTD’s run, but I didn’t love it the way I loved Series 5. Series 5 made me flail with joy, I cannot even tell you.

There’s also the role that individual experiences play. For instance, RTD’s writing (and by extension, the character of Ten) hit on two particular sore spots with me: people deliberately playing into society’s misogyny in order to undermine a woman (see: Ten’s treatment of Harriet Jones, which I find disgusting and appalling) and memory/mind manipulation without consent (see: Ten wiping Donna’s memories when she begged him to stop). I have an actual, visceral reaction to those two things, especially the latter, which is tied to personal experience I’m really not going to get into here. They bothered me so much that they soured Ten’s character for the point that I really just have nothing good to say about him anymore except that I like Tennant’s face.

On the other hand, I’m not nearly as bothered by what’s going on with Amy this series, even while I understand that other people are. Part of that is that I think it’s premature for me to judge the story while we’re in the middle of it (“Let’s Kill Hitler,” aside, which I don’t think you can spin any other way) and we don’t really know where it’s going (read this essay about why the series is still working for elisi. It’s a great essay). But part of it is that I don’t have as much of a visceral reaction to Amy being pregnant without knowing it and her narrative becoming about her pregnancy and family. Unlike a lot of people, I really love motherhood narratives (as long as they’re well done), and I also think it can be interesting to show what happens when a character loses agency…as long as we get that agency back later. So if Amy doesn’t ever regain her agency, then I’ll probably be as upset as a lot of you are. But at this point in time, while I find other people’s objections to what’s going on completely legitimate, it isn’t ruining the show for me the way it is a lot of people. Because of who I am as an individual and because of my own experiences. (And also because I think it’s entirely possible that she’ll get her agency back a little later.)

To wrap up my DW thoughts, I’ll say that I think it’s totally fine to still love Ten and RTD’s run as long as you acknowledge the problematic nature of their actions. And I would love it if people could have enough empathy to understand why I still love Eleven and Moffat’s writing even while there’s stuff about where the show is right now that I find really wrong.

So read this meta and get over it. Okay?

I think now would be a good time to tell you what I’m not saying. And what I’m not saying is that there is never a time to call people out on the way they’re relating to fandom. If someone is calling a character a slut/whore/whatever and saying she doesn’t deserve Perfect Guy, it’s okay to call that person out on that behavior. If someone is saying that an evil character’s very evil actions are justified, it’s okay to not be okay with that. If someone is dismissing an *ism that you see in a show by saying that it doesn’t matter that it’s there, go ahead and call them out on it!

But in a broader context, I think it’s better, as a general rule, to talk mostly about problematic patterns in fandom as opposed to specific behaviors of individuals. This is sort of like when we talk about feminism and how we make a commitment not to hate on women who buy into the lies that society is telling them and perpetuate those lies. Instead, we hate the lies themselves. The same sort of thing should happen in fandom.

And this should go without saying, but apparently it needs to be said? Just because you like something better, doesn't mean it's objectively better. And just because you think of yourself as progressive doesn't mean that everything you love becomes progressive. And just because other people have other opinions about things than you do does not mean that they are wrong or that you are better than them. There is no "right" way to watch a show or read a book or view a movie. And the idea that there is is what lead us to millenia of powerful rich white guys deciding what works of literature were important (basically everything that supported their worldview) and which ones weren't (the ones that didn't). FANDOM IS NOT A COMPETITION.

This weekend when we were talking about that absolutely brilliant Man Pain vid, a couple of people mentioned that it made them feel guilty. Like it was judging them for liking specific characters that were featured in the vid. And I don’t think that’s the point. I mean, several of my favorites were featured there. I love Mulder, despite the fact that he’s really an idiot. I mean, the guy has zero sense of self-preservation, he’s pretty much the reason that Dead Little Sister exists as a Trope, he’s often overcome with his Man Pain, and—let’s face it—if he didn’t have Scully and Skinner around to save his ass, he’d be dead seven million times over. But despite all of those things, I do love him. And I don’t feel like the vid was picking on me as an individual for loving that individual character. Instead, the vid was trying to say, “Look how often this trope comes up. We see it over and over again in ways we don’t see depictions of other kinds of characters. This trope consistently privileges men’s angst over the stories of women and other oppressed groups. Isn’t that problematic? Can we talk about this?” It’s about the ubiquity of that trope in the stories our cultures tell, not about me as an individual liking an individual character.

I think this would also be the best way to approach conversations about female characters in fandom. Instead of attacking someone else for not liking Bonnie Bennett or Britta Perry or Martha Jones or Sansa Stark or whoever (because hey! There are legitimate reasons not to like each individual character!), let’s talk about how fandom at large consistently privileges the stories of white men, how fandom at large attacks qualities in women that it lauds in men, how fandom at large is, honestly, pretty messed up. And that’s what’s problematic! It isn’t the individual stuff! It isn’t you liking that character or me thinking that plotline is really interesting. It’s the way problematic things pop up over and over and over again. It’s the way that people who aren’t white males are sidelined again and again and again and again. It’s the way that no matter when and where a story is set, Hollywood will figure out a way to make that story about a white guy.

And I know that little things add up. I realize that these larger societal behaviors are made up of smaller behaviors of individuals and groups. I get that. But what good does it do to attack another person? None. It does no good. [This also comes up again and again in talking about slash in fandom. People who really love female characters say, “Why does every fandom become about the pretty white guys shagging?” And then the people who like the pretty white guys shagging feel defensive, and it all becomes a big ugly thing. Every. Time.]

At the same time, I’m not saying that it’s impossible to make objective statements. I’m pretty comfortable, for instance, saying that, say, Supernatural is more misogynist than Parks and Recreation. But honestly, I’m not really sure what good that does? I can say that, but…why would I? Again: it does no good.

Fandom is not a competition. If you say that your show is more feminist or progressive or whatever than another show is as a way of putting down other fans, or if you bash another ship as being really *ist or whatever…do you win anything? It accomplishes nothing except creating ugliness in a place—fandom—that should be about love: love of stories and characters and creation and community (I know, I know: I’m sappy. Deal with it).

And frankly, if you don’t have any mercy or empathy in your heart to understand that other people have different perspectives, the other stories might work for other people in ways that they don’t work for you, and that all of this is okay then…I’m not really sure I care to be around you. Fandom is where I go to be happy. Yes, I think it’s also important to examine the problematic aspects of things we consume if we’re so inclined. But when it comes down to it, if I’m not enjoying my time in fandom the way I would any other hobby…then there’s no point.

So let me tell you how I think fandom should work.

I like what I like. You like what you like. If those things aren’t the same things, maybe we sometimes have conversations about why we don’t like things that other people like, as long as that conversation is respectful and in the right spirit. And if we can’t talk to each other without it becoming nasty, then we avoid that topic or we just don’t interact with each other or whatever needs to happen to keep fandom a place of respect for each other.

We talk about the fandom-wide problems as we see them, but the ones who are speaking don’t attack other individuals and the ones who happen to love things that fall under the umbrella of those problems don’t become defensive because they think they’re being picked on.

I acknowledge that there are aspects of a canon that you find really rewarding or important that just don’t work for me. You do the same for me. We all hold hands and sing kumbaya and I buy the world a Coke and everything is beautiful and happy and lovely. Right?

Okay, so that’s never going to happen. Fandom is a wanky, wanky place, and I suspect there are people out there who are in it actually for the wank. But for the rest of us, the ones who want to try to keep this happy, can’t we do this? I haven’t always been perfect at this, and I know just how hard it can be not to become incredibly defensive when someone is criticizing something you relate to or a story or character that’s really, really important to you. It’s hard. But let’s have mercy and kindness and compassion and empathy, and let’s try. Please. Okay?

Comments

[eilowyn.livejournal.com]

Everything I need to say about fandom, you've already said it. Every opinion I have about fandom, you've already iterated (Disconnect with Angel but strong connect with Mulder? Check. Rory Is Not A Bitter Beta Male club but Xander is [Xander's role in the paradigm is unspoken in this essay. I just know it because I know you.]? Check. RTD and the Moff and Joss, for that matter, are all problematic in their own way, but just because we connect with their stories doesn't mean we connect with their alleged misogyny? Check).

This weekend when we were talking about that absolutely brilliant Man Pain vid, a couple of people mentioned that it made them feel guilty.

OMG WILL SOMEONE WHO WENT TO SPUFFYCON PLEASE GIVE THOSE OF US WHO WEREN'T THERE A TASTE OF WHAT WENT DOWN?

[penny-lane-42.livejournal.com]

:D

!!!

I was so proud of myself for not mentioning Xander! Because Laura's watching S1 for the first time and right now her tumblr is basically OMG I HATE XANDER, and we all know how very easily influenced I am, so I thought it best if I didn't say anything at all, you know?

but just because we connect with their stories doesn't mean we connect with their alleged misogyny?

Exactly. I surprised myself by not talking about how much Joss simultaneously fills me with fury and also with joy. How does he do it? The world may never know.

HAHAHA! Actually, I'd say that like 90% of the weekend either involved walking or talking about fandom-y stuff. We actually briefly went to the Met and then realized that there was no point in being there because most of the group was just talking about which art Buffy and Spike would like. And that's how most of the weekend was, honestly.

[angearia.livejournal.com]

THIS IS IMPORTANT.

I would really really love to get back to the place where it's not about the people I disagree with, but the ~ideas~ themselves. More fandom at large. Also, more squee and pleasure and enjoyment.

It's so hard to strike that balance, so so hard.

I VOW TO MISBEHAVE

[penny-lane-42.livejournal.com]

Yes, yes. Indeed.

[pocochina.livejournal.com]

Obviously you knew I would agree with every word! But I really, really agree. (and thank you so, so much ♥ ♥ ♥)

idk, this sounds like self-promoing, but I ended up not having to do anything for this so it's really everyone-else-promoing: I fully expected to have to do some screening or banning on that post I put up this weekend, I was nervous to leave for a couple of hours to go to the gym, I don't know how people mod all the time.

but ~ no issues. There were dozens of people chatting on that post, sometimes on really polarizing topics, and I did not have to step in once. I froze one of my own comments, because it came out a little more negative than I'd intended and I didn't want to bring down the tone. That was it.

which I don't think is actually due to my Jasminesque powers of happy mind control (those don't work over the internet!), I think there are a whole lot of people who for whatever reason think their fandom is an uncomfortable environment for just embracing the love, but they REALLY WANT TO. And I think that speaks to the pervasiveness of the judgment, but also, that a lot of people don't want to do that. I don't really know what to do with that hypothesis, but it is an encouraging thought.

YOUR ICON!

[penny-lane-42.livejournal.com]

You're so welcome! ♥ ♥ ♥

I haven't been able to wade all the way through that post yet, because: um, giant. But! I did notice in what I looked at that it was very wank free, which made me very happy. And the fact that it's all free of ugliness? How wonderful! Yay for fandom!

Whatever, you know your Jasmine powers are controlling us all right now. I wouldn't have even written this without them!

I think there are a whole lot of people who for whatever reason think their fandom is an uncomfortable environment for just embracing the love, but they REALLY WANT TO. And I think that speaks to the pervasiveness of the judgment, but also, that a lot of people don't want to do that. I don't really know what to do with that hypothesis, but it is an encouraging thought.

I can see what you're saying. And I wish that those people understood that you can criticize out of a place of love. And so fandom can be all about the love! As long as you're not dismissing anyone else's pain, it really can be!

[romanaone-fan.livejournal.com]

THIS.

You are a beautiful, wonderful, logical person. I wish there were more people like you. Alas, large numbers of people seem to revel in their own stupidity.

[penny-lane-42.livejournal.com]

You are too, too kind!

I'm hoping that with a lot of people it's less stupidity and more immaturity, because you can grow out of immaturity. We'll keep our fingers crossed!

[blackfrancine.livejournal.com]

Holy cow, missy. This post is epic. EPIC, I SAY.

I feel so much of what you're saying here. I just cannot even express it.

There is no "right" way to watch a show or read a book or view a movie. And the idea that there is is what lead us to millenia of powerful rich white guys deciding what works of literature were important (basically everything that supported their worldview) and which ones weren't (the ones that didn't).

OMG. YES. You just expressed that perfectly.

And... I don't know how to phrase this, so I'm just gonna try... not only is the idea that there's only one way to read or watch a text inherently marginalizing of dissenting and oppressed voices, it's simply not an idea that is really held with any regard by the academy. Think about it: if there were only ONE way to read any given book, it would limit the free flow of ideas and creativity, thus hindering the very progress of art and culture. If there's only one pure reading of, say, Shakespeare, then that invalidates Rosencrantz and Guildenstern Are Dead and West Side Story and To the Lighthouse. And by invalidating those works, you've invalidated everything that was built off of them.

The exciting thing about fandom, for me, is that it's a conversation. It's a real-time experience of interaction with art and with other people who are interacting with art. That's what I LIKE about it. I like that people don't see things the exact same way that I do. But I dislike it (a lot) when I'm told that because I don't see things a certain way, I'm wrong... it's like being slapped across the face at a birthday party: here I am enjoying this incredible outflow of thought and creativity that people are generous and brave enough to share, and SMACK. It stings all the more because the guard is down, I think.

And I want to say that I actually thought about this recently--because when I was doing my BtVS rewatch, I really thought about doing a full post on Seeing Red--and frankly, talking about why I like it. Because I do. And almost everyone I know hates it to one degree or another (I think only local_max and I like it)--and the truth is--I understand WHY people hate it. I get it, big time. And I don't think they're wrong for hating it. Not at all. It's totally legit. I just... am not as bothered by it's inclusion in the narrative. Now, of course it's still disturbing and whatnot. But, just standing back and looking at the episode/arc holistically, I'm not bothered.

Anyway. I digress. My point is, you're brilliant. This post is brilliant. And I have experienced all of the same feelings that you write about.

♥ ♥ ♥

[penny-lane-42.livejournal.com]

MY FEELINGS JUST CAME POURING OUT!

it's simply not an idea that is really held with any regard by the academy. Think about it: if there were only ONE way to read any given book, it would limit the free flow of ideas and creativity, thus hindering the very progress of art and culture.

YES!

It's a real-time experience of interaction with art and with other people who are interacting with art. That's what I LIKE about it. I like that people don't see things the exact same way that I do. But I dislike it (a lot) when I'm told that because I don't see things a certain way, I'm wrong... it's like being slapped across the face at a birthday party: here I am enjoying this incredible outflow of thought and creativity that people are generous and brave enough to share, and SMACK. It stings all the more because the guard is down, I think.

YES!

I would actually really love to read your "Seeing Red" thoughts, because even though I have major problems with it, my problems are not the problems most people have, and I can see why it would work for you. But SR is one of those cases where people just can't imagine other people having another opinion. And, like, if it triggered you (which I can easily imagine it doing), it totally makes sense that it would freak you out that other people have no problem with it and even go on to ship the characters in S7. But that's a moment where you need to take a step back and realize that people who may like the episode are not saying that the behavior was okay, but merely that it worked with the story, which is a completely different thing.

Anyway, I support your right to like the episode. Yay!

Awww! You're sweet! And brilliant, too! ♥ ♥ ♥

[ceciliaj.livejournal.com]

It accomplishes nothing except creating ugliness in a place—fandom—that should be about love: love of stories and characters and creation and community (I know, I know: I’m sappy. Deal with it).

I am just as sappy and I agree with this sentiment :). Beautiful essay. It's constantly amazing to me how love can be expressed in such endless variety, while hate (especially directed at individuals) is so limited and predictable in its spiral into oblivion. More love all the time!

[penny-lane-42.livejournal.com]

Thank you so very much!

It's constantly amazing to me how love can be expressed in such endless variety, while hate (especially directed at individuals) is so limited and predictable in its spiral into oblivion.

YES! Such a great point. I totally agree.

[elisi]

Sorry to... be awkward, but can I take issue with both of these statements?

(from RTD’s frankly sickening dismissal of fans’ reactions to Ianto’s death to Moffat’s really gross comments about Karen Gillan’s attractiveness level)

The reason RTD became so harsh was because fans sent death threats to the writer of Day 4, and this pissed him off. Incidentally, when he first watched the rushes, he was in tears - he talks about it in The Writers Tale, and about how he both created and killed Ianto and how extraordinary that is to have that kind of power, and how he's managed to upset himself. (Ianto was my SPECIAL BOY and RTD broke my heart. But I still think that [some] fans reaction was completely unacceptable. I was there, and it was hugely unpleasant.)

Re. Moffat's comments about Karen, then I'm guessing you're talking about this? Which... I found really funny? Presumably you take issue with the fact that he was worried she wasn't 'pretty enough' to be a companion, but he was obviously impressed enough to be ready to brush that aside. Is it symptomatic of our culture of Pretty People? Probably. But the fact that he was expecting to see 'a beach ball', and would have cast her even if she was one, is something I put in his plus column.

/end rant. Please feel free to delete or screen this if it's not in keeping with the tone of the post. I am all for positivity and trying to look at the bright sides!

[penny-lane-42.livejournal.com]

The fans' response (death threats? really? I heard about it at the time, but I will never get over my sheer disbelief at how ridiculous people can be) was obviously completely unacceptable, stupid, ridiculous, disturbing, and wrong on every level. But the way he reacted to it seemed very, very sexist to me. I remember being really horrified and thinking, "This is exactly why writers shouldn't directly address their fans."

As for Moffat, I can't watch the video at work, so I don't know. But he pretty consistently makes really, really gender essential statements ("All women do such and such," "All men are this way"--and it really angers me).

I'm not at all saying you need to be offended by his commenting on Karen's body, but within the larger context of the way he talks, it bothered me a lot. Not to mention that if you said what he did in a non-TV/film-type environment, it wouldn't be regarded as appropriate at all. I had a visceral reaction to it. And again--not saying you have to. Just that I did, and I don't think I'm wrong to react in that way.

I appreciate both of their talents, but they're people, too, and not perfect, and sometimes do/say inappropriate things.

[zombie_boogie.livejournal.com]

BLESS THIS POST.

I mean. I watch plenty of problematic shows (hahahaha Glee, oh you). I like to have conversations about issues in the media. At the same time as I am having those conversations I like to enjoy the product I am consuming. So, while I'm griping about how Glee or The Vampire Diaries treats women and minorities and having really, really interesting discussions about those things, I'm also appreciating the aspects of those shows that I do still enjoy. I'm not sure why more people can't engage in critical analysis and enjoyment. I grow tired of comments from both the "brain off/analysis is no fun/why do you have to rain on everyone's parade with your dumb meta" party and the "oh my god you're a terrible person for enjoying this problematic thing/anyone who thinks this way is so basic" party. Because basically both of those sides are terribly dismissive of the ways in which I like to engage in fandom.

think this would also be the best way to approach conversations about female characters in fandom. Instead of attacking someone else for not liking Bonnie Bennett or Britta Perry or Martha Jones or Sansa Stark or whoever (because hey! There are legitimate reasons not to like each individual character!), let’s talk about how fandom at large consistently privileges the stories of white men, how fandom at large attacks qualities in women that it lauds in men, how fandom at large is, honestly, pretty messed up.

This is a really important point. It doesn't grind my gears if someone has a well-thought out reason for disliking a character that I happen to like. It's when people default to derogatory, sexist language when talking about female characters, and when people hate on a female character for reasons that would not get that character hate if they were male that I get my hackles up. Basically: what you said.

With regards to Doctor Who, I've thought a bit about DW S6 and why I felt disenchanted with this first run of episodes. Part of it was Amy's narrative, but since we don't have the full scope of where her storyline is headed it might be premature to judge it harshly. She was definitely not as active an agent in the front half of s6 as she was in s5, and the whole motherhood vessel business has the potential to be messy (I'm going to wait and see how it sorts itself out), but Amy's storyline alone isn't the sum of my lack of love for those episodes. For me, s6 has just been missing that spark of magic that permeated s5. It had all of Moffat's timey-wimeyness without the heart and charater interactions that made s5 so fantastic (but I am coming from the perspective of someone who enjoys Amy and Eleven's relationship - platonic or otherwise - more than Amy and Rory's relationship).

[penny-lane-42.livejournal.com]

At the same time as I am having those conversations I like to enjoy the product I am consuming. So, while I'm griping about how Glee or The Vampire Diaries treats women and minorities and having really, really interesting discussions about those things, I'm also appreciating the aspects of those shows that I do still enjoy. I'm not sure why more people can't engage in critical analysis and enjoyment. I grow tired of comments from both the "brain off/analysis is no fun/why do you have to rain on everyone's parade with your dumb meta" party and the "oh my god you're a terrible person for enjoying this problematic thing/anyone who thinks this way is so basic" party. Because basically both of those sides are terribly dismissive of the ways in which I like to engage in fandom.



OMG YES!!! So very, very well said. This is exactly how I am, too.

It doesn't grind my gears if someone has a well-thought out reason for disliking a character that I happen to like. It's when people default to derogatory, sexist language when talking about female characters, and when people hate on a female character for reasons that would not get that character hate if they were male that I get my hackles up.

Absolutely. I also don't appreciate when people assume that if you like or dislike a certain character, you must obviously be this or that kind of person. UGH.

For me, s6 has just been missing that spark of magic that permeated s5. It had all of Moffat's timey-wimeyness without the heart and charater interactions that made s5 so fantastic (but I am coming from the perspective of someone who enjoys Amy and Eleven's relationship - platonic or otherwise - more than Amy and Rory's relationship).

Totally understandable. I actually like all of the relationships between all of the characters, so a shift in focus isn't really going to throw me much. I agree that this series thus far hasn't been magical the way that Series 5 was. Frankly, I don't know that we'll ever hit those heights again, which is a real shame. I'm still holding out hope, though!

[laeria.livejournal.com]

Oh, Lauren, how is this so awesome.

I mostly just - oh, god, yes. I remember feeling so sad after reading the comments to the Man Pain video - so many people feeling guilty! Guilt is so easy to slip into, and hard to wade out of. (Especially when one has a not-very mainstream hobby that's inevitably linked to porn and unfairly linked to childishness in public perception.) And so unnecessary. Slasher guilt, not-slasher guilt, River-Song-fan guilt, River-Song-nonfan guilt, gen-writer guilt, porn-writer guilt, non-writer guilt. All of it. It's like, basic empathy and understanding sometimes seem to slip away, in people's frenzied race to prove themselves progressive - MORE progressive. And the very point of fandom (sharing LOVE for some source material) somehow dissipates.

I love that fandom is huge and varied. I love that we can have people who always write white guys shagging (I like white guys shagging!) and that they can exchange ideas with people who exclusively write femdom het and are friends with people who write vanilla femslash and are beta'd by people who don't write but have a wicked collection of fanart links. I do see why it's good to point out troubling fandom trends, because it leads to more self-awareness and less unthinking cruelty - but the moment that becomes a weapon of proving anybody's superiority, everything spirals to hell irrevocably.

[Note: I also don't think everyone needs to cultivate an awareness of canon/fandom problematicness. Some people only want escapism, not broadened perspectives. (Honestly, while I was having a very rough patch with RL activists, I definitely didn't want any of that in my hobby. I'm still wary, if curious.) This is cool. However, it's also cool to alert them if they do or say or write anything offensive. And it's cool to expect they'll react in a more mature manner than RTD did. Open communication. It's a LOVELY thing.]

I am delighted by how DIFFERENTLY most of my flist sees Doctor Who. Like, like, y'all are watching an opposite show. And that's okay. That's brilliant. It's all a complex matter of kinks and squicks and biases and existing tolerances. Because we do not have a hive mind, nor do we need it or want it. Which, again, the point, here, because if everyone thought what we thought there'd be no need for a community.

In conclusion, *grouphugs the internet*.

[penny-lane-42.livejournal.com]

This comment is the most beautiful thing ever. From start to finish. I shall frame it and put it on my internet-wall.

♥

[catbirdfish.livejournal.com]

[penny-lane-42.livejournal.com]

[ghostyouknow27.livejournal.com]

This post is made of so. much. win. Unfortunately, I'm pretty much exhausted, so my response won't be, so ...

I think the main thing is that we live in a problematic world, and each and every thing our world produces is going to be problematic in its own way. What things bother us and what things we love despite their problems (or what problems our privilege/cultural blindness prevents us from seeing) is *entirely* individual.

You mention Supernatural ... and I adore that show, even though I would have to be astoundingly ignorant to think its treatment of female characters is okay, much less desirable. But I don't think it makes me a bad person to love something that's problematic (I'm also a huge, huge fan of Moffat's Who, although I loathe Ten). I also don't pass moral judgment on other fans who like things I have major, major issues with, because what we like in fiction isn't what we want, like, or condone in life, and the fact that one person can't get past something on a show doesn't mean there's *nothing* to love about it.

Which isn't to say I've never read anything and gone, "WTF have you been watching?" Because that's inevitable. And that's not to say that I don't think we should point out when fandom itself is behaving in problematic ways (for example, I have a lot of issues with the nature of the criticism that was lobbied at Marti Noxon and Sera Gamble when they took over shows formerly run by men, which is, btw, almost identical). But the nice thing about fandom is that it's so large and diverse that it can collectively cast light on things that individuals may not think about.

For example, I never really looked at how people of faith were portrayed in the media/TV until snick and diamondtook brought it to my attention. I didn't agree with the portrayal(s) under question, but the fact that they were problematic didn't beat me with a baseball bat in the same way that issues surrounding, say, feminism and mental health and primitivism did and do. Now, I'm much more attuned to the issue, and that's because of fandom.

[rebcake.livejournal.com]

Coke: la agua negra del yanqui imperialismo. Mentioned only to emphasize the "there are many ways of looking at things" aspect of this post.

You are quite perfect, my dear.

I had a little epiphany this weekend when we were out to dinner with a couple and talking with the newish girlfriend about stories we liked. There was lots of back story about HP which MiAmor, old friend, and newish girlfriend didn't know, because they enjoyed but didn't get obsessed like McDiva and I did. Stuff like, you know, Dumbledore is gay and Snape's love for Lily was unrequited. (Apparently some people who see the movies are confused and wonder if Snape was supposed to be Harry's "real" father.) Then the total agreement about BtVS (except for old friend who can't watch because the monsters are too scary). Then newish girlfriend brought up Twilight, which she deemed "wonderful" (though she didn't read them in English, so there could have been something different going on, right?). McDiva began reading the books but soon gave up and started a Twilight-haters blog, due to Bella's Mary Sue blandness. I never tried them, because I was sure the gender issues would be too great to bring me any enjoyment — which is what I told newish girlfriend. She said, "If I waited around for all the gender issues to be perfect, I would never get to watch or read anything!" Which struck me as perfectly legitimate.

We all have our threshold of what we can take and what we need to get over otherwise insurmountable humps in cognitive dissonance. They moved on to The Hunger Games, which I haven't read, although I am tempted. I am positive that they are good, and that there is lots of wonderful, subversive material therein. I know I would have been all over them when I was younger. But, now that I'm older, I have trouble with stories that are rooted in mass cruelty, especially of the government-sponsored kind. Probably because I've seen it happen too many times in RL, so it doesn't read as fantasy anymore. I get too depressed.

Bottom line is that I try to only post when I've got something to squee about, as I don't see the point of spreading the hate. H8 8NT FUN, y'all. At least, not for me.

[aerintine.livejournal.com]

I am so in love with this post and with your beautiful way with self expression. Everything here. Absolutely.

I could pull out pieces I particularly loved, but there are so many it would take all of the space.

Except okay I'll do it anyway:

And this should go without saying, but apparently it needs to be said? Just because you like something better, doesn't mean it's objectively better.

This is the DUH-HOWDY I so wish every single person everywhere embraced.

If you say that your show is more feminist or progressive or whatever than another show is as a way of putting down other fans, or if you bash another ship as being really *ist or whatever…do you win anything? It accomplishes nothing except creating ugliness in a place—fandom—that should be about love: love of stories and characters and creation and community

You call yourself sappy for saying this. But this is not sap. This is the foundation of fandom life, as far as I'm concerned. I would like fandom to be a microcosm of what I live outside the computer on a daily basis. It ought to be a community. It ought to be based in love. Dammit, it MUST lift me up and make me feel empowered and surrounded by open, accepting arms or what the heck am I even doing here? There are no winners when we fight about shows and characters and ships as an underhanded way of knocking down other fans. I'll never understand it.

I want to know the stories. I want to hear the stories we love in old, familiar ways and in new ways, because they ways we tell them and the ways we hear them become threads of our fabric. We are the stories. If that's sappy then I'll dip myself in the stickiness of it and then roll around in cornflakes. Because it's the heart of why I'm here. Because of all of the people in fandom who illuminate themselves by illuminating the stories we love to tell about the characters who are a part of us. All I ask is that we all remain kind to one another. And allow each other the space to be accepted. To be gentle, with ourselves, and with our stories too. We can be fierce, but let us always be gentle.

I need my fandom experience to be both enriching and joyful. If it fills me with dread than I'm at the wrong party. As long as folks are respectful, we can all coexist together quite well. And we do, for the most part.

Also I would like to second your love of well-done motherhood narratives. *places hearts and flowers all around them*

[agnes-bean.livejournal.com]

Basically, if we sat around and waited for something perfect to invest in—something that wasn’t problematic, something in which every oppressed group was treated perfectly, something that didn’t have any content that could hurt a viewer—we would never be able to invest in anything. We wouldn’t even have fandom. We wouldn’t be able to tell stories.

Yes. YES. Yes to this entire post, and especially this part. Everything is problematic on some level, and when people try to deny that and play the "my thing I love is totally less problematic than your thing you love" game, it sucks.

This is something I've been thinking about for a while, and I think you've really identified to two main axis against which people judge whether or not they are willing to put up with the problems in a certain story: A) How much they like the other elements of the story, and B) how bothered they are by the problematic bits (which will be influenced by a combination of personal experience, personal preference, etc).

And the thing is, these will be REALLY different for different people. And that's fine. But when people start saying "well my thing is objectively better than your thing," when what they really mean is "my thing has other story elements that appeal to me more, and/or it's most problematic in areas that ping me less" the atmosphere becomes corrosive.

I think a significant part of the problem, as you say, is a lack of empathy. If Person A has absolutely zero interest in American folklore or stories that play with religious elements, and aren't willing to think about the fact that other people DO love those elements as much as A loves star crossed lovers (or whatever it is they love), then yeah, they're going to look at Supernatural and be all "why would you EVER watch that, it's so bad to its female characters." But... we're all fans. How hard is it to emphasize with the feelings of fannishness, even if you don't like it? Like you, I have no interest in Angel's brand of man!pain, but I'm willing to believe that for some people, his brooding attempts at finding personal salvation are as interesting as Spike's redemption arc is to me. I don't GET it, but I'm not going to hate on them for being more forgiving of Angel's flaws than I am because of it.

So basically, a-fucking-men. Why can't we all just get along?

ALSO

[agnes-bean.livejournal.com]

I can dislike an overall trope while still liking an individual that falls within that trope? Or at least I thought I could. Apparently the fandom police don’t think so.

This. I hate this, and I see a lot of it. People are very eager to call "hypocrite" when someone says they like something that falls into a category they normally dislike, without a) actually asking the person if they AGREE the thing falls into that category, or b) asking WHY they like it when they normally don't. Often, there's a reason (for instance, you and many others liking Supernatural despite its treatment of women because it has elements that just don't exist elsewhere). And even if there's NOT a clear reason, sometimes certain tropes that someone normally hates just work for them in some cases. It can be as simple as really liking an actor, or a certain twist on the story, or whatever.

I don't get the eagerness to point fingers, like -- AH HA! I caught you in a lie! No. People respond to every story differently, and just because they make general statements doesn't mean they ALWAYS apply. People like things they normally dislike, and vica-versa. AND THAT'S OKAY.

I CANNOT WITH THIS POST.

[ever-neutral.livejournal.com]

They see something that’s really problematic and that hurts them personally and they assume that anyone who actually still likes that thing just doesn’t care about other peoples’ pain. And I don’t think that’s always true. It’s easy to forget that while you’re feeling defensive because of something someone else likes, you’re also enjoying something that causes someone else pain.

THANK YOU. THANKYOUTHANKYOUTHANKYOU. *gives you chocolates*

But in a broader context, I think it’s better, as a general rule, to talk mostly about problematic patterns in fandom as opposed to specific behaviors of individuals.

YESSSSSSS. and also: Just because you like something better, doesn't mean it's objectively better… There is no "right" way to watch a show or read a book or view a movie… FANDOM IS NOT A COMPETITION.

THIS ENTIRE PARAGRAPH. I CANNOT. SPEAK TO MY SOUL MORE, LAUREN. SOBBING.

I realize that these larger societal behaviors are made up of smaller behaviors of individuals and groups. I get that. But what good does it do to attack another person? None. It does no good.

UGH. THIS. THIS. THIS. SERIOUSLY. WHYYYYYY do people GET OFF on this? WHY? WHY DO PEOPLE FIND IT ENJOYABLE TO TEAR ANOTHER PERSON'S OPINION DOWN? DO THEY NOT SEE THAT THEY ARE *ADDING TO* THE UGLINESS IN THE WORLD? Le sigh.

In conclusion: I WANT TO MARRY THIS ENTIRE POST AND HAVE ITS BEAUTIFUL TOLERANT BABIES.

BLESS THIS POST. BLESS YOUR EXISTENCE. {insert many gifs of adoration}

[ladyofthelog.livejournal.com]

Okay, I hugely love this post, I want to print it out and put it on my WALL, that's how much I love it.

I had a convo with Snick last night (I went out to Brooklyn for an impromptu slumber party after dinner!!!! omg!) about how I don't usually deeply identify with characters I read about. I'm used to being a cheerfully intrigued/horrified voyeur. 99% of the characters I do identify with and invest in are women, and the remaining 1% is John Watson. There are characters I love and am fascinated by (Snape, Spike, Sherlock), but I don't identify with them, and I generally don't take criticism of them personally.

Which means, haha, that while I love the manpain vid, I'm totally not the audience for it. AND I ONLY JUST REALIZED THIS FROM THIS POST.

[redbrunja.livejournal.com]

see: Ten’s treatment of Harriet Jones, which I find disgusting and appalling)

I have no words for how much this enraged me. Like, I literally flipped out about it and immediately stopped watching DW for about a year, if not more. (And I never did go back and rewatch more than selected episodes of Ten's run.)

[gabrielleabelle.livejournal.com]

*nods*

Word.

[shipperx.livejournal.com]

Interesting essay.

And I love Mulder too (and Scully!)

[artemis-ephesus.livejournal.com]

So hi there! Not much to say really, because this pretty much says everything I think. But this is really awesome. I love fandom for things like this. My RL friends just think I'm nuts when I do things like his in speech.

Interesting point about Angel, actually - I suffer from insane amounts of Wes love as well, but while I was really invested in his arc the first time I watched it and didn't really pay attention to much else, when I go back and watch it now I realise how very, very not in line with my feminist-y ideas the show is. So I kinda stopped, and now just live in the memories of the anguish and angst I shared with Wes.

[crazyumbrellas.livejournal.com]

tbh I really, really wouldn't watch this season of Supernatural if I were you because apparently it's just 200% blatant with it's misogyny. Like, apparently there was a sequence in which some demons strapped a demon lady (Meg, I think I just heard about it) down naked on a table and then tortured her by stabbing her repeatedly in the vagina because she sacrificed herself to buy the boys some more time.

So.

[angearia.livejournal.com]

o_O

[norwie2010.livejournal.com]

Oh, this is so great!

I mean, i'm not deeply into fandom (the phenomenon) because i don't watch contemporary TV shows (apart from BtVS...).

But. What you say is true nonetheless and whenever i do encounter fandom conversations this is just what's needed to be said like, every time.

And: Ok, i'm not a very tolerant person but hating on and belittling people over the internet over pop culture stories? The same internet which is notorious for misunderstandings and shortened attention spans and due to that some real difficulties to express complicated matter?

Your essay really hits home.

The problem is with fandom is rather similar to the problems with the shows/stories which spark fandom in the first place: not perfect, interlaced with all the problems and problematic areas of our society.

But! We as fandom have one big, shiny and joyful advantage - we're not doing this for economic reasons. So, we are able to actually act and speak differently than those laboring under the laws of capitalism.

While it is certainly difficult to "live the right life in the wrong one" at least we can make an effort to reflect on what we're doing here (in fandom, i mean), what we're saying, how we're saying it and to whom we're speaking.

Critique the problem, not the person. Discuss the matter, reflect on it and remember that this is our place (albeit sparked by economic works), so indeed we can do it differently.

Thanks so much for this essay! You're great!