in which i wax at length about the way fandom should be

[lirazel]

So I’ve had some ~thoughts~ I’ve wanted to share, but I’ll go ahead and tell you that they aren’t unique—they’ve been verbalized many times before, and often by me. But I’ve been wanting for a long time to consolidate my thoughts on Reader Response Theory and fandom courtesy, and I might as well do it, right?

Caveat: this post contains spoilers through all of the episodes of Doctor Who that have been aired. DW isn’t the focus of this post, though, so if you want to skip over the paragraphs where I start talking about RTD and the Moff, you could probably do that and still get the gist of what’s going on here.


Let’s start with a quote:

And lastly, a note on how we engage with less than perfect source material. Unfortunately, there isn't that much out there that is perfect, or even close to it, and in the end we all pick and choose based on a combination of things we like and things we can put up with. We compartmentalise. Sometimes we enjoy elements of canon source even while we might simultaneously think there's a critical point to be made. Sometimes we deal with these issues enough in our offline life that we want to ignore it when we hit fandom. Sometimes it's because we deal with these issues so much in our offline life that we can't ignore it when it crops up in fandom. Sometimes we don't pick up it at all, or disagree when someone else argues that it's problematic. Sometimes we just don't want to engage that day, that month, or ever….

Mileage will vary a lot on everything I've covered. I hope it's clear from this post that I think that's totally okay, and sort of my point. Few things are perfect, and we love them anyway, and sometimes part of our loving them is critiquing them, and sometimes it isn't, and that's fine.

Words of truth, y’all.

Basically, if we sat around and waited for something perfect to invest in—something that wasn’t problematic, something in which every oppressed group was treated perfectly, something that didn’t have any content that could hurt a viewer—we would never be able to invest in anything. We wouldn’t even have fandom. We wouldn’t be able to tell stories.

Because stories, and all art, are created within the context of the society of both the storyteller and the audience. It’s absolutely impossible to divorce them from their context. And all societies are flawed in various ways. Allsocieties. Because societies are made up of people and people are hopelessly flawed. So when those people, operating within their societies, create stories or art or anything else, the product of their creation absolutely will reflect the flaws of both the creator and the larger society, no matter how hard the creator is trying.

And y’all know all that. I’m not telling you anything new. But sometimes I feel like people forget this? They see something that’s really problematic and that hurts them personally and they assume that anyone who actually still likes that thing just doesn’t care about other peoples’ pain. And I don’t think that’s always true. It’s easy to forget that while you’re feeling defensive because of something someone else likes, you’re also enjoying something that causes someone else pain.

If you’re human, you love something that could cause someone else pain. That’s just life as a human being. And it’s something we need to deal with if fandom isn’t going to turn into an ugly place to be.

So let’s talk about something that I love that’s also incredibly problematic. A lot of my friends have given up on The Vampire Diaries. I totally understand this. The fandom is pretty ridiculous and the show seems to revel in killing off women, especially women of color. Some people think the show whitewashes Damon’s actions (but other people don’t see it that way). The love triangle is being drawn out to a stupid extent. There are lots of good reasons to give up on the show. But there’s also some good ones to stay. I stay because I love Bonnie and Caroline and Elena and their relationships with each other, relationships that are fraught and that often waver under the weight of the horrible supernatural stuff they’re going through, but relationships that they also work on. I stay because I find Stefan and Damon’s relationship with each other really, really fascinating. I stay because Katherine is really fun. So while I totally understand why other people are leaving, it still speaks to me enough that I’m staying for the time being, and I hope that those who have thrown in the towel can understand why.

On the other hand, I find Angel the Series really, really, really anti-feminist to the point where I really don’t want to watch it. There are a few things about the show I enjoy (Gunn—when he gets any sort of development, which is rare—Cordy in the early seasons, Lorne, Darla and Dru, Lilah, Connor, Angel acting like a dork, and quite a few scattered episodes), but I’ve reached the point where I feel okay with admitting that I am not a fan of the show. But you know what I love? I love reading pocochina’s thoughts about the show. Love. Because she acknowledges all of the really problematic stuff and is all about calling out the show when it epically fails, but she also loves it anyway. A lot of that love comes from her love of Wes, who I don’t really care for. And it makes me wonder—if I loved Wesley the way she loves him, would I be willing to put up with all that misogynist material for the sake of that character? And the answer to that is…probably. So while the show drives me insane, I appreciate poco’s appreciation for it, and I’d never judge her for loving something I can’t stomach.

Because let’s be honest: a lot of what we’re willing to put up with/overlook is dependent upon how much we’re enjoying the story. For instance: Supernatural was pretty problematic from the beginning. I mean, S1 is full of ladies being fridged left and right, and a lot of the violence against them is very sexual in nature, and it’s all really disturbing. It’s built in to the show from pretty much the beginning. And I knew that from the beginning. And I would never have denied it. But I also really enjoyed the show. I really cared about Dean (and also Sam and Jo and Ellen and Bobby and whoever) and the family relationships spoke to me deeply and I loved how American the show is, intrinsically American, which isn’t something you see a lot in genre shows. So I acknowledged the bad but kept loving the good. Somewhere around S5, though, my enjoyment was flagging. And so when what happened in “Abandon All Hope” happened, that was the last straw. I threw my hands up and had my epic breakup with the show. Two things were happening here: 1) what happened in that episode really, really pissed me off as a human being, a viewer of the show, and a feminist, and 2) I didn’t really are very much about the show to begin with. So it was quite an easy decision to make to give up on it. Interestingly, snickfic has been telling me about what’s happening in S6 of the show, and I’m intrigued again. I might give it another try. This doesn’t mean that I think the show is any less problematic than it was at the point I said goodbye to it. What it does mean is that if the show is interesting enough to me, I might be willing to acknowledge that problematic material and yet embrace the show again anyway. And there is nothing wrong with this.

A week or so ago, I made a mention of disliking "bitter beta males" in a tag on my tumblr. I pretty much immediately got a really passive-aggressive-ly-phrased anonymous comment about how I couldn’t say that since I am fond of Rory Williams. Which seemed ridiculous to me. Not only because the major thing that bothers me about Nice Guys (entitlement) isn’t really all that present in Rory all the time, and not only because I can love the character while disliking the writing for that character (see also: Martha Jones, queen of my heart), but also because…I can dislike an overall trope while still liking an individual that falls within that trope? Or at least I thought I could. Apparently the fandom police don’t think so.

It's something like my relationship with Man Pain. I hatehatehatehatehatehate Angel’s Man Pain, to the point where I just don’t want to watch his show. But I’m a big fan of Fox Mulder, and he’s got loads of Man Pain, too. And honestly, my ability to tolerate that Man Pain probably arises from the fact that I emotionally connect to Mulder and identify with him, whereas I’ve always found Angel annoying and just don’t like him. Preferences play such a huge role in this sort of thing. And liking one character over the other isn’t hypocrisy, unless I’m telling people who like Angel that they’re wrong and they shouldn’t like a character so embued with Man Pain (more on this anon).

And then there’s the perpetual comparisons of RTD and Moffat. CAN THIS ARGUMENT DIE? Seriously. I am so sick of it. Both of these guys are incredibly problematic in real life (from RTD’s frankly sickening dismissal of fans’ reactions to Ianto’s death to Moffat’s really gross comments about Karen Gillan’s attractiveness level) and in their writing. And I think it’s pretty impossible to say which one is worse. Because they’re both bad. Let’s not do that anymore, okay?

Instead, let’s admit that what we’re willing to put up with is so deeply connected to whether the story works for us. I enjoyed a lot of RTD’s run, but I didn’t love it the way I loved Series 5. Series 5 made me flail with joy, I cannot even tell you.

There’s also the role that individual experiences play. For instance, RTD’s writing (and by extension, the character of Ten) hit on two particular sore spots with me: people deliberately playing into society’s misogyny in order to undermine a woman (see: Ten’s treatment of Harriet Jones, which I find disgusting and appalling) and memory/mind manipulation without consent (see: Ten wiping Donna’s memories when she begged him to stop). I have an actual, visceral reaction to those two things, especially the latter, which is tied to personal experience I’m really not going to get into here. They bothered me so much that they soured Ten’s character for the point that I really just have nothing good to say about him anymore except that I like Tennant’s face.

On the other hand, I’m not nearly as bothered by what’s going on with Amy this series, even while I understand that other people are. Part of that is that I think it’s premature for me to judge the story while we’re in the middle of it (“Let’s Kill Hitler,” aside, which I don’t think you can spin any other way) and we don’t really know where it’s going (read this essay about why the series is still working for elisi. It’s a great essay). But part of it is that I don’t have as much of a visceral reaction to Amy being pregnant without knowing it and her narrative becoming about her pregnancy and family. Unlike a lot of people, I really love motherhood narratives (as long as they’re well done), and I also think it can be interesting to show what happens when a character loses agency…as long as we get that agency back later. So if Amy doesn’t ever regain her agency, then I’ll probably be as upset as a lot of you are. But at this point in time, while I find other people’s objections to what’s going on completely legitimate, it isn’t ruining the show for me the way it is a lot of people. Because of who I am as an individual and because of my own experiences. (And also because I think it’s entirely possible that she’ll get her agency back a little later.)

To wrap up my DW thoughts, I’ll say that I think it’s totally fine to still love Ten and RTD’s run as long as you acknowledge the problematic nature of their actions. And I would love it if people could have enough empathy to understand why I still love Eleven and Moffat’s writing even while there’s stuff about where the show is right now that I find really wrong.

So read this meta and get over it. Okay?

I think now would be a good time to tell you what I’m not saying. And what I’m not saying is that there is never a time to call people out on the way they’re relating to fandom. If someone is calling a character a slut/whore/whatever and saying she doesn’t deserve Perfect Guy, it’s okay to call that person out on that behavior. If someone is saying that an evil character’s very evil actions are justified, it’s okay to not be okay with that. If someone is dismissing an *ism that you see in a show by saying that it doesn’t matter that it’s there, go ahead and call them out on it!

But in a broader context, I think it’s better, as a general rule, to talk mostly about problematic patterns in fandom as opposed to specific behaviors of individuals. This is sort of like when we talk about feminism and how we make a commitment not to hate on women who buy into the lies that society is telling them and perpetuate those lies. Instead, we hate the lies themselves. The same sort of thing should happen in fandom.

And this should go without saying, but apparently it needs to be said? Just because you like something better, doesn't mean it's objectively better. And just because you think of yourself as progressive doesn't mean that everything you love becomes progressive. And just because other people have other opinions about things than you do does not mean that they are wrong or that you are better than them. There is no "right" way to watch a show or read a book or view a movie. And the idea that there is is what lead us to millenia of powerful rich white guys deciding what works of literature were important (basically everything that supported their worldview) and which ones weren't (the ones that didn't). FANDOM IS NOT A COMPETITION.

This weekend when we were talking about that absolutely brilliant Man Pain vid, a couple of people mentioned that it made them feel guilty. Like it was judging them for liking specific characters that were featured in the vid. And I don’t think that’s the point. I mean, several of my favorites were featured there. I love Mulder, despite the fact that he’s really an idiot. I mean, the guy has zero sense of self-preservation, he’s pretty much the reason that Dead Little Sister exists as a Trope, he’s often overcome with his Man Pain, and—let’s face it—if he didn’t have Scully and Skinner around to save his ass, he’d be dead seven million times over. But despite all of those things, I do love him. And I don’t feel like the vid was picking on me as an individual for loving that individual character. Instead, the vid was trying to say, “Look how often this trope comes up. We see it over and over again in ways we don’t see depictions of other kinds of characters. This trope consistently privileges men’s angst over the stories of women and other oppressed groups. Isn’t that problematic? Can we talk about this?” It’s about the ubiquity of that trope in the stories our cultures tell, not about me as an individual liking an individual character.

I think this would also be the best way to approach conversations about female characters in fandom. Instead of attacking someone else for not liking Bonnie Bennett or Britta Perry or Martha Jones or Sansa Stark or whoever (because hey! There are legitimate reasons not to like each individual character!), let’s talk about how fandom at large consistently privileges the stories of white men, how fandom at large attacks qualities in women that it lauds in men, how fandom at large is, honestly, pretty messed up. And that’s what’s problematic! It isn’t the individual stuff! It isn’t you liking that character or me thinking that plotline is really interesting. It’s the way problematic things pop up over and over and over again. It’s the way that people who aren’t white males are sidelined again and again and again and again. It’s the way that no matter when and where a story is set, Hollywood will figure out a way to make that story about a white guy.

And I know that little things add up. I realize that these larger societal behaviors are made up of smaller behaviors of individuals and groups. I get that. But what good does it do to attack another person? None. It does no good. [This also comes up again and again in talking about slash in fandom. People who really love female characters say, “Why does every fandom become about the pretty white guys shagging?” And then the people who like the pretty white guys shagging feel defensive, and it all becomes a big ugly thing. Every. Time.]

At the same time, I’m not saying that it’s impossible to make objective statements. I’m pretty comfortable, for instance, saying that, say, Supernatural is more misogynist than Parks and Recreation. But honestly, I’m not really sure what good that does? I can say that, but…why would I? Again: it does no good.

Fandom is not a competition. If you say that your show is more feminist or progressive or whatever than another show is as a way of putting down other fans, or if you bash another ship as being really *ist or whatever…do you win anything? It accomplishes nothing except creating ugliness in a place—fandom—that should be about love: love of stories and characters and creation and community (I know, I know: I’m sappy. Deal with it).

And frankly, if you don’t have any mercy or empathy in your heart to understand that other people have different perspectives, the other stories might work for other people in ways that they don’t work for you, and that all of this is okay then…I’m not really sure I care to be around you. Fandom is where I go to be happy. Yes, I think it’s also important to examine the problematic aspects of things we consume if we’re so inclined. But when it comes down to it, if I’m not enjoying my time in fandom the way I would any other hobby…then there’s no point.

So let me tell you how I think fandom should work.

I like what I like. You like what you like. If those things aren’t the same things, maybe we sometimes have conversations about why we don’t like things that other people like, as long as that conversation is respectful and in the right spirit. And if we can’t talk to each other without it becoming nasty, then we avoid that topic or we just don’t interact with each other or whatever needs to happen to keep fandom a place of respect for each other.

We talk about the fandom-wide problems as we see them, but the ones who are speaking don’t attack other individuals and the ones who happen to love things that fall under the umbrella of those problems don’t become defensive because they think they’re being picked on.

I acknowledge that there are aspects of a canon that you find really rewarding or important that just don’t work for me. You do the same for me. We all hold hands and sing kumbaya and I buy the world a Coke and everything is beautiful and happy and lovely. Right?

Okay, so that’s never going to happen. Fandom is a wanky, wanky place, and I suspect there are people out there who are in it actually for the wank. But for the rest of us, the ones who want to try to keep this happy, can’t we do this? I haven’t always been perfect at this, and I know just how hard it can be not to become incredibly defensive when someone is criticizing something you relate to or a story or character that’s really, really important to you. It’s hard. But let’s have mercy and kindness and compassion and empathy, and let’s try. Please. Okay?

Comments

[elisi]

Sorry to... be awkward, but can I take issue with both of these statements?

(from RTD’s frankly sickening dismissal of fans’ reactions to Ianto’s death to Moffat’s really gross comments about Karen Gillan’s attractiveness level)

The reason RTD became so harsh was because fans sent death threats to the writer of Day 4, and this pissed him off. Incidentally, when he first watched the rushes, he was in tears - he talks about it in The Writers Tale, and about how he both created and killed Ianto and how extraordinary that is to have that kind of power, and how he's managed to upset himself. (Ianto was my SPECIAL BOY and RTD broke my heart. But I still think that [some] fans reaction was completely unacceptable. I was there, and it was hugely unpleasant.)

Re. Moffat's comments about Karen, then I'm guessing you're talking about this? Which... I found really funny? Presumably you take issue with the fact that he was worried she wasn't 'pretty enough' to be a companion, but he was obviously impressed enough to be ready to brush that aside. Is it symptomatic of our culture of Pretty People? Probably. But the fact that he was expecting to see 'a beach ball', and would have cast her even if she was one, is something I put in his plus column.

/end rant. Please feel free to delete or screen this if it's not in keeping with the tone of the post. I am all for positivity and trying to look at the bright sides!

[penny-lane-42.livejournal.com]

The fans' response (death threats? really? I heard about it at the time, but I will never get over my sheer disbelief at how ridiculous people can be) was obviously completely unacceptable, stupid, ridiculous, disturbing, and wrong on every level. But the way he reacted to it seemed very, very sexist to me. I remember being really horrified and thinking, "This is exactly why writers shouldn't directly address their fans."

As for Moffat, I can't watch the video at work, so I don't know. But he pretty consistently makes really, really gender essential statements ("All women do such and such," "All men are this way"--and it really angers me).

I'm not at all saying you need to be offended by his commenting on Karen's body, but within the larger context of the way he talks, it bothered me a lot. Not to mention that if you said what he did in a non-TV/film-type environment, it wouldn't be regarded as appropriate at all. I had a visceral reaction to it. And again--not saying you have to. Just that I did, and I don't think I'm wrong to react in that way.

I appreciate both of their talents, but they're people, too, and not perfect, and sometimes do/say inappropriate things.

[elisi]

But the way he reacted to it seemed very, very sexist to me.
Ah, it's the 'hysterical women on the internet' thing. Yeah, writers shouldn't talk to fans. That said, I appreciate RTD for being honest and straightforward. He might be a jerk, but he's upfront about it, y'know? Writing women on DW... problematic. On Torchwood? A-mazing. (I have RTD issues. But they are far smaller than my Joss issues. Probably because I never put RTD on any kind of pedestal.)

As for Moffat, then there are a few quotes out there which are attributed to him, but which he's dismissed (they came from one of his characters, someone who was... a bit of a sexist, apparently. I've not seen Coupling, so can't comment). As for what he says generally, then this sums it up pretty well.

Anyway, I SO don't have time to be here. Have fun and frolic and hey look - here's a super gif:

[penny-lane-42.livejournal.com]

I don't know, maybe it's because I'm Southern, but I don't appreciate jerks, even when they are upfront about it. I just...want people to be nice. I just put a whole lot of stock in politeness and respect. And I didn't see him reacting that way to his fans. Were they in the wrong? Absolutely. But he didn't need to add to the wrong. I don't have time for jerks.

they came from one of his characters, someone who was... a bit of a sexist, apparently.

If this is the case with the ones I've read, I would gladly admit I'm wrong. I love his writing for Lynda, especially, on Press Gang and think he basically did no wrong with her, so he obviously can write women (it's one of my great sadnesses in fandom life that there's no Press Gang fandom to speak of. Lynda is such a HBIC). But as soon as he starts saying things about how all women want to be married and such, I just get pissed off. I would be very, very pleased to learn the stuff that I'd heard was from him was really just his character talking. Really, I'd like nothing better.

That is an excellent gif!

[elisi]

Were they in the wrong? Absolutely. But he didn't need to add to the wrong.
No disagreement there. He is big and Welsh and sometimes talks too much when he ought to shut up. Like I said, I do have issues, I guess I'm just used to him being a bit of an idiot. Like an embarrassing uncle?

If this is the case with the ones I've read, I would gladly admit I'm wrong.
I am in the process of hunting them down...

[penny-lane-42.livejournal.com]

Hee! An apt metaphor!

You're too sweet to do that, but don't feel like you have to if you don't have time. I can do my own research at one point, and I know you're super busy lately!

I will also say in the "plus" column for him, I love his quote about writing Lynda and looking at things from the perspective of a 17-year-old girl and it making him angry. That's an absolutely brilliant quote.

[elisi]

You're too sweet to do that, but don't feel like you have to if you don't have time.
Oh don't worry, I have minions friends who can do it for me...

I will also say in the "plus" column for him, I love his quote about writing Lynda and looking at things from the perspective of a 17-year-old girl and it making him angry. That's an absolutely brilliant quote.
*nods a lot* I have a very vocal group of Press Gang fans in my LJ, and one day I shall watch it!

[penny-lane-42.livejournal.com]

Oh, I approve of minions. In that case, carry on! :D

It sort of reminds me of DW in that it's "for kids," but you can come to it as an adult, as I did, and enjoy it just as much. There's that fun dialogue, too, and some things he does with structure that can be quite great. Plus: epic romance! I'm sure that if you ever get to it, you and your girls would really love it!

[elisi]

OK, so the original quotes are proving nigh-on impossible to track down. I'm guessing you've read them - something about women being needy and such. Someone asked Moffat about this on Twitter, and these were his responses:

http://twitter.com/#!/steven_moffat/status/73013478759211009

http://twitter.com/#!/steven_moffat/status/73014880478838784

Hope that helps?

[eilowyn.livejournal.com]

SEE! SEE! You're doing it! YOU'RE DISAGREEING WITHOUT IMPLYING THE OTHER IS MORALLY WRONG FOR HAVING SAID OPINION! Go you two with the Moffat and RTD discussion!

[penny-lane-42.livejournal.com]

I hope so! The very last thing I would ever want to do is upset elisi in any way, since she's one of the nicest people in fandom and her presence is a place of sunshine-y joy! But what upsets me obviously doesn't upset her, and that's okay!

[elisi]

since she's one of the nicest people in fandom and her presence is a place of sunshine-y joy!
She says, after I come into her journal and start arguing...

'S OK, Imma just gonna sit over here and blush

[penny-lane-42.livejournal.com]

Hahaha! Well, it's because even when you disagree, you never make me feel like you think I'm a bad person! Plus, I can't think of one really negative fandom post you've ever posted in your journal, which is saying something. I wish I could claim the same!

[elisi]

Hahaha! Well, it's because even when you disagree, you never make me feel like you think I'm a bad person!
Well you are a LOVELY person. I tend to assume that if people disagree they're just... misguided. And I shall concentrate on a) making them see what I see or b) find common ground or c) agree to disagree.

Plus, I can't think of one really negative fandom post you've ever posted in your journal, which is saying something.
... You never saw any of my s8 posts? Admittedly they were mostly mocking in nature, but usually I mock out of love. When it came to s8 I did it in order not to cry or swear or punch things. Anyway, ignoring s9 is working beautifully, so no more rants! :)

[penny-lane-42.livejournal.com]

Thank you! :D

A lot of people are misguided, and other times it just comes down to different opinions/tastes. But this:

And I shall concentrate on a) making them see what I see or b) find common ground or c) agree to disagree

Just about covers constructive reactions!

Oh, I forgot about S9! But even when you did make those posts, I didn't feel like you were mocking the people who enjoyed it, just what was going on in canon, which is obviously fine. It's when people start to judge other people that I get sad.

[elisi]

Just about covers constructive reactions!
:)

But even when you did make those posts, I didn't feel like you were mocking the people who enjoyed it, just what was going on in canon, which is obviously fine. It's when people start to judge other people that I get sad.
I know what you mean. And I've been around long enough to know that even people who I love very very dearly can have the most BIZARRE preferences or dislikes.

[frelling-tralk.livejournal.com]

I'm not sure if the death threats actually happened so much as people spewing a whole lot of vitriol at the writing team tbh. At the time I remember asking if it was true what fandom was repeating about death threats to the writers, and the quote from James Moran (the writer of said episode) was

I've received over a thousand messages from viewers talking about the show. The vast majority have been extremely positive. Even though many of them are upset, angry and shocked, they have managed to express that without making it personal...But the rest of the messages? Unacceptable. Some have been spewing insults and passive aggressive nonsense. Accusing me of deliberately trying to mislead, lie, and hurt people. Telling me I hate the fans, that I'm laughing at them, that I used them, that I'm slapping people in the face, that I've "killed" the show, that I'm a homophobe, that I want to turn the fanbase away and court new, "cooler" viewers, even that I'm hurting depressed people with dark storylines. Asking me to pass on vitriolic, hateful messages to people I love and respect.

Not cool.

So some fans obviously responded extremely badly, but I've never been sure where the talk of death threats come from. The writers have never talked about receiving any

[menomegirl.livejournal.com]

I don't watch Torchwood but I remember seeing all the LJ posts when Ianto died and I was reminded very strongly of fannish reactions to Marti Noxon when Tara was killed off on BtVS.