So I'm rereading the Spike/Buffy scene again and wow. It keeps getting better with each read. The "fire" as you pointed out. And how his belief in her makes her start crying. And also, I don't thinks she's gone hunting in a while so it feels like he's prompting her to keep her guard up since she's been busy grieving and working. Like--he's been watching her back while she's been busy trying to catch her breath.
Oh. And he keeps parking on the roof. NOT BENEATH HER ANYMORE.
NOT BENEATH HER OMG. And clearly they've done this sit in the window and chat thing before as she says the thing about the roof like it's happened a bunch of times. THE BANTER. AND HOW HE'S THERE FOR HER. MY SHIIIIIP. Seriously, we win this round. THE FIC THAT COULD BE WRITTEN. NO SERIOUSLY. Our ship is anything but sunk. And though I still don't think S9 will have her end up with anybody (end-game wise) because that's not how Joss rolls, I can so easily see them together in the future. So easily.
It feels like Joss lined up all the suitors who people thought would be better for Buffy and then he KNOCKED THEM DOWN. Xander? Nope! He's with her sister now and that'd be extra gross. Angel? Nope! She can't even look him in the face anymore and I don't think they can come back from this because Buffy and Angel relied on the fantasy versions they had of each other. Riley? Still happily married, you guys. DUH.
Then there's Buffy and Spike. And it's like Buffy has all these feelings and fantasies and things she's not saying and he's totally oblivious. And it's the inverse of their relationship in the past where he was the one yearning and she was oblivious. And like--this is how you get people rooting for Spike and Buffy. At least, this is how you get them rooting for the 'ship if you're sympathetic to Buffy. Because now she's the one yearning and he's the one off doing his own thing. And isn't this perfect?
I know it's wrong and Joss won't go there, but why does it look like Joss is setting up the Spike and Buffy Love Story 2.0? Like they're gonna get it right this time. It feels like Joss is writing the other dimension of their love story. Where she's the pursuer. First, she's all "oh god no, please no" to realize she's still this into him and she thinks vampires should be a turnoff for her because look what happened with Angel. LOOK WHAT JUST HAPPENED. So she's gonna be in denial and he's gonna keep showing up and she's gonna keep wanting him and he's gonna fly off. And as his ship flies off, she'll think, "Alone. Every night."
She's alone because he left. Everyone else is paired off and she's alone because he's not there. Seriously though everyone is paired off. Willow is being true to her new love, Aluwyn, mourning that loss. Dawn and Xander are down. Faith and Angel have paired off. Giles is gone. :( And who's left? Buffy. Alone. And Spike flying off.
My belief in all that you're saying and the way it looks is at complete war with what I know of Joss and his relationship to...relationships and to shippers. I AM SO TORN. Because I totally agree that that would be the thing to do. To go there, and to do it right--that seems obvious to me, and even people who never shipped it before are liking them now. But on the other hand...it's Joss.
I know. I know. But... why does it look like he's doing this? I DON'T KNOW.
I think Joss might be coming off the fence regarding his love of Bangel and Spuffy equally. Like, he basically ripped Bangel apart in Season 8. And the way he portrayed Bangel in #36 was drenched in satire and over-the-top grossness. And then I think about how Joss would always come in and rewrite the Spuffy scenes (like Hell's Bells, just talking about this on Gabs' journal) and also JANE ESPENSON was in the room planning Season 9 and I think...
What if Joss has fully converted? And we've already got Jane in the room. And like...
I think Joss might be coming off the fence because he's all FUCK IT THESE ARE MY COMICS. Like he no longer cares if he's pissing us off. He's been pissing us off for four years now and he's all LOL I DON'T CARE I NEVER LIKED BANGEL I PORTRAYED IT AS UNHEALTHY AND DESTRUCTIVE--WHY WEREN'T YOU PAYING ATTENTION?
THIS IS BAD THOUGHTS. THERE IS NO PROOF. I DON'T EVEN CARE THOUGH.
A part of me wonders if Joss doesn't kinda resent the Buffy & Angel True Love Forever. I mean, he wanted to kill Angel at the end of Season 2 and he brought him back for the networks. And so I wonder if that True Love deal feels like this contrivance in a way.
I JUST READ THIS WHOLE THREAD AND I'M PRETTY SURE MY HEART JUST EXPLODED.
THIS MIGHT BE THE HAPPIEST DAY OF MY LIFE EVER EVER EVER. And I haven't even read it! Just reading this thread fills me with JOOOOYYY! I love your speculation backed with what seems like incredibly sound evidence. SPECULATE MOAR.
Oh dear! I'm guessing you've seen the "soundtrack for season 8" and that you know that that song is Jeanty's pick? But I bet he picked it because it reminds him of spacefrakking LOL
You don't do, what I want you to But I haven't been Through what you've been through And we could use that As an excuse If that's what you choose If that's what you choose
And KT Tunstall's song with its "My heart's forsaken me" could describe Buffy's emotional disconnection and loneliness throughout the season.
But I really can't see why the other songs were chosen.
Haha, well the Angel and Buffy flying so doesn't fit that song since I feel it's more about positive growth. But LOL at a vid about Buffy and Angel defying gravity during spacefrakking. LOL4EVER!
There is excellent very in-character interaction. And Dawn Summers winning at life. And some awesome things involving Faith. All around, very satisfying character-wise. I still think the plot's kind of a mess? But I was never here for the plot anyways.
That's exactly how I feel! I cannot get over the shock that I am...actually looking forward to S9? I feel like I'm betraying my past self. But in a good way.
lol well I just read through your comments and I guess I found out part of the stuff I wanted. What are some of the main things that went down with Angel and I guess Faith for that matter?
Well, what happened a few issues back is that we found out that Angel was actually the bad guy of the season hiding behind a mask. But he was being controlled by this entity called Twilight? And it's still not clear to me how much of that was his fault and how much wasn't?
Anyways, his glowy power or whatever took over Buffy and then he and Buffy had SEX IN SPACE (or as we call it 'round these parts, "space frakkin'") that ended up like destroying the world? And it was destroyed in order to create a more perfect world but they were the only ones who were going to survive to get to it or something.
Then Buffy comes to her senses and is like "OH NO WE DESTROYED THE WORLD!" And she's like, "Screw this, I gotta save my friends!" So she goes back and saves the world. And then there was this egg that Buffy had to destroy to save the world but take all of the magic out of it? Confusing, I know. The plot doesn't make sense.
But now Buffy can't bear to even look at Angel and Angel's sitting in a dark corner brooding, but Faith says that she's going to take care of him because she's all about forgiveness. And it's this really awesome moment of Faith doing for Angel exactly what he did for her back on his show. I loved it, even if I feel like the Angel characterization was crazycrazycrazy.
Giles also died, and he left everything he had to Faith, except for the book that he shows Buffy in the pilot--that says "vampyres" on it?--and Faith says it's because he thinks she's weaker than Buffy and needs to be taken care of, but that was her projecting--it was really his way of showing how much he believed in her, I think. I really loved that.
So yeah, the plot and Angel's characterization made ZERO sense to me. But the characterization for everyone else ended up working really well there in the last issue.
lol yeah, I knew about Angel and the Twilight stuff and I was like oh they're still being continuous about Angel being TOTALLY OOC when he is with the Buffy gang? Okay not interested and it's just so bad because he would NEVER do that. And then I heard about the sex in space that lasted for like twenty pages or whatever. I mean, obviously I'm biased since I don't ship those two but that is a bit much.
But yeah, I wanted to know his ~aftermath~ after killing Giles. I heard something about Faith being involved in his redemption and I'm down with that idea because I love Angel and Faith's friendship. Whatever, I'm going to be bitter and immature but I just cannot see Buffy/Angel ever. I really do appreciate what they did for each other in the beginning because it was so completely necessary but it needed to be over forever ago. Like, after The Yoko Factor.
And thank you! I loved it so much and obviously I have major love for the Fanged Four.
Aha! Well, I wasn't sure how much people have absorbed, you know? I still do think he did a major disservice to Angel. Major.
I lovelovelove Faith and Angel's friendship, I really do, and that was a huge delightful surprise for me in this last comic.
Whatever, I'm going to be bitter and immature but I just cannot see Buffy/Angel ever. I really do appreciate what they did for each other in the beginning because it was so completely necessary but it needed to be over forever ago. Like, after The Yoko Factor.
My feelings exactly!
There should have been a Fanged Four show. Shows I would watch.
lol well Joss never liked Angel. Not really, anyways. Like, not that I still buy the comics as actual canon but I'd be down with Angel/Faith if they decide to do that. It's probably the only ship I can see with him that isn't Cordelia.
But ugh just I could not deal with the major character derailment the writers made Angel go through in the comics, just from what I heard. Like, Angel would never do those things as Twilight no matter what.
I wish there was a Fanged Four show. Things that would have been epic and jfc they are just epic. OT4.
Oh, thank God there's a happy reaction! There's been so much negativity floating around when I looked that I didn't know what I'd do without Emmie and Maggie.
My take: there have been problems. Can't hide that fact, and we can't blame it all on Meltzer (no matter how easy that is). Joss' admitting that there were faults with this little "experiment" that was Season 8 (and that he's changed the direction of Season 9 because of feedback) goes a long way to ease my mind about my issues.
I read a very anti-Buffy review, and it kind of broke my heart because I'm seeing Buffy at her lowest, but this time she's not giving in to the depression that she very well should be in this time.
This issue is what Season 8 should have been, and what we can expect Season 9 will be. I'm good with that.
I haven't read anyone's thoughts but Emmie's--though I'm going to check out Maggie's real quick before I go to bed--so I wasn't aware. And I still don't know that I think that the series overall was a success. As a matter of fact, I'd say it wasn't. It was a big mess that had some really good bits in it.
But I did lovethis last issue and Joss' letter made me really hopeful that he knows (at least some of) what he did wrong and that he's headed in a direction I'll like.
And you're right! This is Buffy back at another of her lowest points, but unlike before, she doesn't run away from everyone she loves (post-killing-Angel) or become clinically depressed (S6). She's at a low, but a low she can handle and battle back from without seeing her soul be crushed in the process. It's progress.
This issue is what Season 8 should have been, and what we can expect Season 9 will be. I'm good with that.
GAH! I should be working but I'm having so much fun sneaking around reading y'all's reactions that I can't focus! CANNOT FOCUS. TOO BUSY CONCENTRATING ON SPUFFINESS AND HIM NOT BEING BENEATH HER. AND I THINK I'M GOING TO MAINLINE THE COMICS SOMETIME SOON.
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Me (and you!):
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So I'm rereading the Spike/Buffy scene again and wow. It keeps getting better with each read. The "fire" as you pointed out. And how his belief in her makes her start crying. And also, I don't thinks she's gone hunting in a while so it feels like he's prompting her to keep her guard up since she's been busy grieving and working. Like--he's been watching her back while she's been busy trying to catch her breath.
Oh. And he keeps parking on the roof. NOT BENEATH HER ANYMORE.
Oh Joss.
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It feels like Joss lined up all the suitors who people thought would be better for Buffy and then he KNOCKED THEM DOWN. Xander? Nope! He's with her sister now and that'd be extra gross. Angel? Nope! She can't even look him in the face anymore and I don't think they can come back from this because Buffy and Angel relied on the fantasy versions they had of each other. Riley? Still happily married, you guys. DUH.
Then there's Buffy and Spike. And it's like Buffy has all these feelings and fantasies and things she's not saying and he's totally oblivious. And it's the inverse of their relationship in the past where he was the one yearning and she was oblivious. And like--this is how you get people rooting for Spike and Buffy. At least, this is how you get them rooting for the 'ship if you're sympathetic to Buffy. Because now she's the one yearning and he's the one off doing his own thing. And isn't this perfect?
I know it's wrong and Joss won't go there, but why does it look like Joss is setting up the Spike and Buffy Love Story 2.0? Like they're gonna get it right this time. It feels like Joss is writing the other dimension of their love story. Where she's the pursuer. First, she's all "oh god no, please no" to realize she's still this into him and she thinks vampires should be a turnoff for her because look what happened with Angel. LOOK WHAT JUST HAPPENED. So she's gonna be in denial and he's gonna keep showing up and she's gonna keep wanting him and he's gonna fly off. And as his ship flies off, she'll think, "Alone. Every night."
She's alone because he left. Everyone else is paired off and she's alone because he's not there. Seriously though everyone is paired off. Willow is being true to her new love, Aluwyn, mourning that loss. Dawn and Xander are down. Faith and Angel have paired off. Giles is gone. :( And who's left? Buffy. Alone. And Spike flying off.
Oh crap. I need to stop thinking thoughts.
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TORN.
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I think Joss might be coming off the fence regarding his love of Bangel and Spuffy equally. Like, he basically ripped Bangel apart in Season 8. And the way he portrayed Bangel in #36 was drenched in satire and over-the-top grossness. And then I think about how Joss would always come in and rewrite the Spuffy scenes (like Hell's Bells, just talking about this on Gabs' journal) and also JANE ESPENSON was in the room planning Season 9 and I think...
What if Joss has fully converted? And we've already got Jane in the room. And like...
I think Joss might be coming off the fence because he's all FUCK IT THESE ARE MY COMICS. Like he no longer cares if he's pissing us off. He's been pissing us off for four years now and he's all LOL I DON'T CARE I NEVER LIKED BANGEL I PORTRAYED IT AS UNHEALTHY AND DESTRUCTIVE--WHY WEREN'T YOU PAYING ATTENTION?
THIS IS BAD THOUGHTS. THERE IS NO PROOF. I DON'T EVEN CARE THOUGH.
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He really does right by our ship, doesn't he? In a lot of ways.
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He really does right by our ship, doesn't he? In a lot of ways.
I think he does. I do.
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THIS MIGHT BE THE HAPPIEST DAY OF MY LIFE EVER EVER EVER. And I haven't even read it! Just reading this thread fills me with JOOOOYYY! I love your speculation backed with what seems like incredibly sound evidence. SPECULATE MOAR.
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I DIDN'T NOTICE IT! SHAME ON ME!
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i think i'm incapable of punctuation look what you did lauren
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Out of that list, I like Joss's pick - "Uniform Grey" by Sarah Harner http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5ht3zPYZvuc and Jo Chen's - "Black Horse in a Cherry Tree" by KT Tunstall http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2c4Olwqasvc
The former has the lyrics that really do fit Buffy in S8:
You don't do, what I want you to
But I haven't been
Through what you've been through
And we could use that
As an excuse
If that's what you choose
If that's what you choose
And KT Tunstall's song with its "My heart's forsaken me" could describe Buffy's emotional disconnection and loneliness throughout the season.
But I really can't see why the other songs were chosen.
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But not really.But, um, okay, apparently there is quality Spike/Buffy interaction? The kind that makes life worth living?
*shoots off to read like a mad thing*
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There is excellent very in-character interaction. And Dawn Summers winning at life. And some awesome things involving Faith. All around, very satisfying character-wise. I still think the plot's kind of a mess? But I was never here for the plot anyways.
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AHAHA! WHEN ARE WE GETTING MARRIED? I CANNOT GO ON WITHOUT YOU SAYING TRUTHINESS LIKE THIS ALL THE TIME.
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Anyways, his glowy power or whatever took over Buffy and then he and Buffy had SEX IN SPACE (or as we call it 'round these parts, "space frakkin'") that ended up like destroying the world? And it was destroyed in order to create a more perfect world but they were the only ones who were going to survive to get to it or something.
Then Buffy comes to her senses and is like "OH NO WE DESTROYED THE WORLD!" And she's like, "Screw this, I gotta save my friends!" So she goes back and saves the world. And then there was this egg that Buffy had to destroy to save the world but take all of the magic out of it? Confusing, I know. The plot doesn't make sense.
But now Buffy can't bear to even look at Angel and Angel's sitting in a dark corner brooding, but Faith says that she's going to take care of him because she's all about forgiveness. And it's this really awesome moment of Faith doing for Angel exactly what he did for her back on his show. I loved it, even if I feel like the Angel characterization was crazycrazycrazy.
Giles also died, and he left everything he had to Faith, except for the book that he shows Buffy in the pilot--that says "vampyres" on it?--and Faith says it's because he thinks she's weaker than Buffy and needs to be taken care of, but that was her projecting--it was really his way of showing how much he believed in her, I think. I really loved that.
So yeah, the plot and Angel's characterization made ZERO sense to me. But the characterization for everyone else ended up working really well there in the last issue.
And your icon is drop-dead gorgeous.
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But yeah, I wanted to know his ~aftermath~ after killing Giles. I heard something about Faith being involved in his redemption and I'm down with that idea because I love Angel and Faith's friendship. Whatever, I'm going to be bitter and immature but I just cannot see Buffy/Angel ever. I really do appreciate what they did for each other in the beginning because it was so completely necessary but it needed to be over forever ago. Like, after The Yoko Factor.
And thank you! I loved it so much and obviously I have major love for the Fanged Four.
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I lovelovelove Faith and Angel's friendship, I really do, and that was a huge delightful surprise for me in this last comic.
Whatever, I'm going to be bitter and immature but I just cannot see Buffy/Angel ever. I really do appreciate what they did for each other in the beginning because it was so completely necessary but it needed to be over forever ago. Like, after The Yoko Factor.
My feelings exactly!
There should have been a Fanged Four show. Shows I would watch.
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But ugh just I could not deal with the major character derailment the writers made Angel go through in the comics, just from what I heard. Like, Angel would never do those things as Twilight no matter what.
I wish there was a Fanged Four show. Things that would have been epic and jfc they are just epic. OT4.
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My take: there have been problems. Can't hide that fact, and we can't blame it all on Meltzer (no matter how easy that is). Joss' admitting that there were faults with this little "experiment" that was Season 8 (and that he's changed the direction of Season 9 because of feedback) goes a long way to ease my mind about my issues.
I read a very anti-Buffy review, and it kind of broke my heart because I'm seeing Buffy at her lowest, but this time she's not giving in to the depression that she very well should be in this time.
This issue is what Season 8 should have been, and what we can expect Season 9 will be. I'm good with that.
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But I did lovethis last issue and Joss' letter made me really hopeful that he knows (at least some of) what he did wrong and that he's headed in a direction I'll like.
And you're right! This is Buffy back at another of her lowest points, but unlike before, she doesn't run away from everyone she loves (post-killing-Angel) or become clinically depressed (S6). She's at a low, but a low she can handle and battle back from without seeing her soul be crushed in the process. It's progress.
This issue is what Season 8 should have been, and what we can expect Season 9 will be. I'm good with that.
Agreed. YAY!
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But you helped me realise something (post to follow), so thank you.
ETA: Actually, having now read it myself, my reaction to this post is more like this:
Sorry.
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GIF!
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ONLY IT WAS NOT SEXY, NO, NOT SEXY, IT WAS LIKE THIS:
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Woot! Gif dance party!