Hey, y'all!

[lirazel]

Get your Xander!hate on! eleusis_walks is doing his 30 Days of BtVS, and even though there are many, many topics I strongly disagree with him on, he is always thoughtful and awesome and interesting. And the things I do agree with him on? I agree violently.

Like our mutual hate for the ultimate Nice Guy Xander Harris. He basically lists every single hateful thing that Xander ever says/does and I am glorying in my hate. He also has a love-post devoted to Anya, which I haven't gotten to read yet, but I know is wonderful because anything involving Anya is wonderful. And eleusis_walks loves Dawn and Cordy and Jenny and basically a ton of awesome ladies, so I forgive him for not loving my boy and my girl enough. ;D

So join the hate fest! Or if you like Xander...well, I would like to hear why. Because it is beyond my understanding.

Comments

[anythingbutgrey.livejournal.com]

[penny-lane-42.livejournal.com]

:D

This is one time I feel no shame about spreading the hate. Because for a sec, I'm all, "Maybe it's bad that I'm enjoying hating this much." But then I remind myself that he is a fictional character, so I'm as free to hate as I like!

[anythingbutgrey.livejournal.com]

sometimes things need to be hated on.

xander is one of those things.

[elisi]

I... don't understand the Xander hate. I mean, he's not my favourite character (I don't even have an icon of him), but I find him perfectly acceptable.

Sure he's an idiot and screws up a lot, but I like characters that are flawed. He's just Xander, much like Willow is just Willow (and I know people who can't STAND her). If he wasn't a jerk now and again he wouldn't be himself.

I can understand disliking the fact that he seems to get a lot of free passes where others don't, but surely that's not his fault? Just like I don't hate Buffy in s8, because it's not her fault that Joss decided to perform a lobotomy on himself...

Sorry if I'm all wordy and Pollyannaish and ruining your happy hating mood. I'll go away now.

[penny-lane-42.livejournal.com]

It's not that he's a jerk--Spike can be a jerk. A major, major asshole. And I never stop loving him. It's the way he wants to control all of the women around him. He's...a raging misogynist and the text doesn't recognize that. The text acts as though the only way to hate women is the way that Warren or Caleb does it instead of recognizing that Xander's way is just as damaging.

Glance through the list of awful moments in the post. Those are things I can't get over because he never acknowledges that any of them are problematic. I just can't figure out a way to think well of him when he consistently acts this way.

Ha! You could never ruin my mood! I like you and your thoughts too much!

[eilowyn.livejournal.com]

I don't think I hate Xander as much as I hate Angel, and Xander does have some redeeming qualities (can't think of any with my hate-on at 100% at the moment, but I know he has them . . . ooh! He hates Angel too! That's a good quality!), but I've noticed when I disagree with eleusis_walks I disagree fiercely. See: blackfrancine's ATS season 4 post. But when he's on . . . he's on.

[eilowyn.livejournal.com]

He's...a raging misogynist and the text doesn't recognize that. The text acts as though the only way to hate women is the way that Warren or Caleb does it instead of recognizing that Xander's way is just as damaging.

Okay, this I can agree with, and it's very well-worded. Just because he finds powerful women hot doesn't negate all the other misogyny he displays throughout the series. And he only finds Buffy hot when she does what he deems right for her re: love life.

[penny-lane-42.livejournal.com]

I like Angel more than Xander. He treats Cordy well and even though I disagree with almost every moral decision he makes, he's at least consistent. I always believe he wants to be good, even if he goes about it the wrong way and even if he can be self-righteous about it. Plus, I really believe he loves Connor. There are times (when he's not around Buffy) that I really like Angel.

But I don't like anything about Xander. Not at all.

But when he's on . . . he's on.

True!

[penny-lane-42.livejournal.com]

Very much so! I'm glad we agree!

[moscow-watcher.livejournal.com]

Wow. I didn't know there was so much hate out there. So far, the only character I saw bashed that much was Spike. Spike-haters always interpreted negatively everything he did, does and will probably do in the future :)

I briefly thought about posting something in Xander's defence but decided against it. My long history of communicating with Spike-haters taught me that any attempt at defencing the character makes people even more angry at him. And his fans too.

[penny-lane-42.livejournal.com]

Well, when people have strong feelings they tend to flock together--like when I post about how AWESOME Buffy is, a lot of people show up to freak out, even though I know there's a lot of hate for her.

I understand totally not wanting to wade into that, but if you wanted to post here, I would love to read your thoughts because I know how thoughtful you are and I value your opinion. Also, I would FIGHT OFF anyone who threatened to upset you. But if you'd rather go off and read a bunch of Xander-loving fic and scrub this from your mind, I understand that, too. That's what I do when people hate on Spike.

[fangfaceandrea.livejournal.com]

I really don't like Xander, though I've found him more... agreeable(?)lately when I rewatch the show and read fic.


Except for S6 where he is repulsive in every sense and scene and word that gets out of his mouth... I don't know how he gets to be the hero of the Season... I don't get how he gets to pass judgement on everyone. grrr

[penny-lane-42.livejournal.com]

I think he's mostly okay in S7, and some fic writers make me not-hate him (though they never make me like him). But yeah, I'm still angry that he gets to be the hero of S6.

[fangfaceandrea.livejournal.com]

Heee, I love Angel so much when he's far away from Buffy. gahh Buffy/Angel bring out the worse of each other.

I have many Xander issues and I'm trying to like him cause I know that for some reason the characters do love him... but I really have to make an effort. I think when he's written OOC meanin more self-aware he can be awesome.

[dollsome.livejournal.com]

Xander has always been one of my favourites, but I think that it's largely because I have lots of trouble resisting the Hilariously Quippy Spaz Boy type! And I think that most of my Buffy opinions solidified when I was about 14, and I haven't properly rewatched in a couple of years, so I think I would probably be bothered by things this time around that I was not back then.

But, yeah, I always loved him a lot. COMING CLEAN, CONFESSING.

[flake-sake.livejournal.com]

I don't know. Xander isn't my favorite character but I don't hate him either. He's flawed and in many ways he has the role of the dumbo who is educated about how to deal with women who are unisono stronger than him.

He also gets to play the role of the "heart of the group" which never was a grateful one when she was pushed on women and isn't one now.

I agree that there are many occasions where through Xander you see oversimplification and back door misogynism he isn't called on, but I found other characters similarly irritating that way (Angel as he is on Buffy, Buffy herself).

So no, I don't hate Xander. I agree on most of the moments fleshed out in the post you linked, but there also lots of moments where he is a genuinely good friend.

[blackfrancine.livejournal.com]

Ha! I know! I feel SO guilty for hating on Xander (and Riley and sometimes Willow). Because I just think about people who like those characters--and I think about how when someone disses Buffy or Spike really hard, my vision goes all white with mama bear rage and I spend the next 3 hours debating whether yell at them or not. And I just don't want to do that to other people.

But I just hate Xander SOOOO much. So much. And that post hits ALMOST every reason why.

[moscow-watcher.livejournal.com]

I won't try to convert you into a Xander fan - I know that we can't change each other's perceptions, and that's fine by me. I'm not a diehard fan but I sympathize with him because I think it would be incredibly hard to be the only regular human in the company of superheroes.

This is my subjective opinion, and YMMV, but, to me, Xander and William!Spike have something in common: both are unpopular kids who suddenly became part of the cool crowd (Fang Gang and Scoobies). Both have a lot of insecurities and both try to hide them behind the facade of bravado. Both often fail and both don't give up.

I have an idea for a season 3 rewrite, Spuffy style - most probably I will never write it, but here's the gist: the story is told from Xander's POV, Buffy is a vampire because Xander didn't tell "The Lie"; instead, he warned her that Willow will try to re-ensoul Angel. So the events went differently: Buffy was stalling Angel, she was fighting cautiously, he bit and turned her, and then Willow gave her the soul. And now Xander thinks every day that he almost told Buffy "kick his ass" and everything that happened to Buffy is his fault. And in the end of season 3 Buffy shanshues and ends up with Spike and they start to banter and argue, and Xander finally says "kick his ass" - but as a joke.

(Okay, shutting up now :))))

[penny-lane-42.livejournal.com]

I forgive you for this since you're so awesome in every other way. ;D And also because 14? Yeah, we're all like that then!

[blackfrancine.livejournal.com]

He's...a raging misogynist and the text doesn't recognize that. The text acts as though the only way to hate women is the way that Warren or Caleb does it instead of recognizing that Xander's way is just as damaging.

YES.

I'm just gonna be replying to everything, now. So, just keep on keepin' on. I'm just gonna ride your coattails of awesomeness.

[penny-lane-42.livejournal.com]

I guess I just don't see him ever actually being educated. If he started out where he does and ended up some place completely different, I could appreciate him.

And I can't think of a single character who's supposed to be the "heart" that I actually like. So there is that, ou're right.

but there also lots of moments where he is a genuinely good friend.

I just think he's incapable of being a good friend to women he's attracted to. He can be a good friend to Willow, but I don't like his treatment--ever--of Cordy or Anya and it's very, very rare where I don't hate him where Buffy's concerned.

[penny-lane-42.livejournal.com]

THIS IS EXACTLY HOW I FEEL. We even share love and hate for the same characters! We may actually be twins.

[dollsome.livejournal.com]

He was always busting out timeless word gems like "To read makes our speaking English good" and "Schpedoinkle"! How was I to resist???

[penny-lane-42.livejournal.com]

No, you're right: it's useless to try to change people's minds, but I always think seeing others' opinions is valuable, so thanks for this.

The comparison between the two is really interesting, even if I don't feel it. I think I can like Spike because he doesn't try to control the women around him, except for Buffy in S6 and that is clearly presented as bad. I never feel like anyone acknowledges how bad it is that Xander's always wanting to tell the women in his life what to do, especially re: their love lives when his is so profoundly messed up.

I have to admit, though that is a stunningly original plot, I probably wouldn't be able to read it, because I hate the idea that Xander might be right about Buffy being such a weak, emotional woman that she couldn't handle the truth and would have lost to Angel if she actually had all the relevant information. But I love the Buffy shanshuing! And ending up with Spike! I would even also like to read a fic from Xander's POV about these two!

And you never need to shut up! I always like your thoughts! Thank you so much for sharing!

[penny-lane-42.livejournal.com]

Like I haven't done the same to you! I'm glad to return the favor!