in which I get rambly again

[lirazel]

First off, anyone who watches The Vampire Diaries, go read this epic post of epicness by ineffort (I'm so proud to call you my friend! *sob*) who doesn't write meta often but totally SHOULD. Her thoughts about Stefan and Katherine (and, peripherally, Damon and a tad bit of Elena) are GENIUS and make me flail with love for this show. WITH BONUS PICSPAMS AND MIX. GET ON THAT.

Once you've done that, you can read the rest of this!

So if you've been around here for very long, you know that I identify with Spike. Like, a lot. A lot a lot. He's the character on BtVS I always understand, whose point of view I never struggle with. Even when I (violently, sometimes) disagree with the conclusions he arrives at or the choices he makes, I always understand where he's coming from. Because he's just so hungry, so ravenous. He feels so much and wants so much and he can't disguise that. It's all right there. I am the same way. I once made some people on my flist laugh by saying that I spew emotion everywhere, but uh. I do. I can be extremely effusive and demonstrative when I'm really close to people (though very shy and stand-off-ish around people I'm not as close to) and I am unafraid of commitment and talking about any feeling that I might have.

Also if you've been around, you know I've become the world's (second) biggest fan of Buffy Summers. And you know that it was a long journey to that place. Because she's pretty much the opposite of who I am. The first time I really identified with her was when Dawn came along and she was all I MUST PROTECT MY SISTER. (I have a big sister complex, basically.) So getting into her headspace is pretty much a constant process for me. But a rewarding one, because it's always really good to look at things from very different povs, you know?

Anyways! Because it was such a struggle for me to grow to understand Buffy, it's always nice when someone who identifies more with her offers their insight.

If I am Spike, then ohwaluvusbab is Buffy. Which I guess means that we should have a crazy love/hate relationship involving banter and UST and redemption arcs? Okay, we'll get right on that. And she shared something with me in the comments to my last BtVS-related post (which I swear I'm going to answer replies to sooner or later) that was so insightful and true that I wanted to share it:

Full disclosure: I am a Buffy. Completely. I feel so connected with her because pretty much the way she functions, lS THE WAY I FUNCTION. (If this is cause for criticism from certain people, fine. Whatever. Come at me.) And this is why I can tell you with 100% certainty that in S7, Buffy loved Spike. It is not even in question.

...

I think part of the issue is that people are judging Buffy-in-love by the way she was with Angel.

You are 100% right about this. I'll go further. I'd say people judge Buffy-in-love by THEIR own idea of what love is supposed to look like. I see some people say that Buffy's not capable of love by S7, which... I can understand why they think this. But on bad days, I find this sentiment pretty damn insulting. To me, it's akin to saying, "YOUR love is inadequate, because it doesn't meet certain requirements us emotionally healthy people have ordained." (Which, hey, possibly over-identifying here. I'll be the first to admit I'm not well-adjusted. I feel such compassion for Buffy in S7 because I've also doubted at length about my own ability to love. Over-sharing. Whatever.) Just. Fuck. Fuck this ~conventional, acceptable way~ of relationships. Buffy called it love. WHY IS THAT NOT GOOD ENOUGH.

And I was all, "Brb, shaking and crying." Because YES. Buffy is still capable of extreme acts of self-sacrifice and compassion and even empathy. What is love if it's not that? I struggle with this idea that she's not "capable" of love in S7. Possibly in S6, because depression often manifests itself in such a way as to pull you so far inside your own head that it's almost impossible to see anything from anyone else's perspective (which, imo, is pretty necessary to love). [Not to say that there aren't lots of people who can love even while depressed, because there are. And Buffy may well be one of them. I'm one of them. I usually don't say she was incapable of loving anyone in S6--I hope I don't, anyways--though I will say I think she was incapable of having a healthy relationship at the time because I think she was. But that's different than not loving, you know?] But in S7, she's past that.

All of this reminds me of Riley in S5. He wants a relationship with someone who is emotionally open, who will lean on him in hard times, and who will talk about how they're ~feeling. And that is fine. That is a 100% legitimate thing to want in a relationship. It honestly sounds like a great one, and I hope he found that in Sam.

But Buffy was never going to be that person. That's not how she is. And he blames her for that. Which pisses me off. Now, should she have called things off when she realized she couldn't give him what she wanted? Yeah, that would have been the mature thing to do. If, you know, she wasn't dealing with Glory and her mom's sickness and everything. I really think the last thing she needed at that point was to have to break up with this guy. But anyways! Yeah, she's partially at fault for the whole breakdown of that relationship.

What she is 100% not at fault for was his decision to react to her emotional closed-off-ness (is that a word? I think not, but it should be) by going to the vamp hookers and putting her in danger (honestly, if that wasn't a metaphor for sleeping around sans-protection and the possibility of passing along an STD to a partner, I don't know what is. He could so easily have been turned! And then hurt Buffy! Or anyone! Dangerous behavior is dangerous and not ever justified. I feel zero sympathy for him about that). He basically blames her. NO. I also get pissed at him because he gives her an ultimatum and then says that it isn't an ultimatum. But it is. Instead of sitting her down and saying, "Buffy, I'm going to ask you straight out if you can ever give me what I need, and if you can't, I need to break this off, because it can't be healthy unless we're on the same page," he acts like she is the one who totally needs to change or he's leaving OH TONIGHT. I just think that's massively douchey.

And don't even get me started on Xander in that episode. STAB STAB STAB STAB STAB.

AH! Ramble! What was I telling? I don't even know.

Anyway, back to Buffy. Buffy's way of loving is not the average way of loving. This also reminds me of the fact that extroverts run the world (even though introverts are sitting around creating great art and stuff *smirkwink*) and tell the 25% of us who are introverts that we are DOING THINGS WRONG (if you don't believe this, you've never been taught how to "network" or been forced to participate in mixer games or anything like that). Um, no. We aren't. We're doing things the way we do things. And yes, that might not be compatible with the way you do things, and that might frustrate you. And that's okay. BUT QUIT TELLING US THAT OUR WAY OF DOING THINGS IS WRONG.

It also kind of reminds me of ableism re: mental health? I don't know if I'm taking this too far (ladyofthelog, smack me down if I am), but don't able-minded people tell those of us with emotional/mental problems all the time that the way we interact just isn't good enough? And though I think Buffy is not clinically depressed in S7, she may still have some mental struggles and even if she doesn't? It still sort of reminds me of that. It makes me feel all squirmy inside.

Anyways again! Buffy's way of loving is definitely not my way of loving (I'm Spike, remember?). And I honestly don't know if I'd want to be in a relationship with someone who loved that way. I think I want more of what Riley wants, honestly, though I don't really know at this point for sure. But I support her right to love that way and not be judged for it. This is a woman who died to save the world and her sister multiple times. And who forgives and forgives and forgives. That's pretty extraordinary. I love it.

I don't even know what I'm saying anymore. I'm going to shut up now. Really, I just wanted to share that quote with you because I thought it was awesome. Yeah. Shutting up.

Comments

[angearia.livejournal.com]

I am so a Buffy, too. Oh my god, overidentification up in here!

Full disclosure: I am a Buffy. Completely. I feel so connected with her because pretty much the way she functions, lS THE WAY I FUNCTION. (If this is cause for criticism from certain people, fine. Whatever. Come at me.) And this is why I can tell you with 100% certainty that in S7, Buffy loved Spike. It is not even in question.

This is me. This is me. Oh my god, this is me.

Buffy called it love. WHY IS THAT NOT GOOD ENOUGH.

YES.

This also reminds me of the fact that extroverts run the world (even though introverts are sitting around creating great art and stuff *smirkwink*) and tell the 25% of us who are introverts that we are DOING THINGS WRONG (if you don't believe this, you've never been taught how to "network" or been forced to participate in mixer games or anything like that). Um, no. We aren't. We're doing things the way we do things. And yes, that might not be compatible with the way you do things, and that might frustrate you. And that's okay. BUT QUIT TELLING US THAT OUR WAY OF DOING THINGS IS WRONG.

Co-fucking-signed. Story of my life.

This is a woman who died to save the world and her sister multiple times. And who forgives and forgives and forgives. That's pretty extraordinary.

I love it, too.

I'm over here FLAILING. I overidentify iwth this post the way I overidentify with Buffy.

[penny-lane-42.livejournal.com]

I love that you are Buffy. So much. And your Buffy perspectives always add so much to my understanding of her.

It's rough being an introvert, isn't it?

I overidentify iwth this post the way I overidentify with Buffy.

THIS MAKES ME GRIN SO WIDE.

Also: you really, really will enjoy the Stefan/Katherine post I linked to. Stefan's is May's boy the way Spike is our boy, and her love for him makes me see him as so interesting and complex. It made me love him lots more. I never disliked him, but this post made me freak out with suddenly understanding him better.

[pamsblau.livejournal.com]

I agree. That's exactly what i've said in a comment on Emmie's post. I feel that some people don't understand Buffy's way of loving. That's a big problem with the Spike/Buffy scenes in #37. I see their connection as true and genuine. I don't need anyone to tell me that she feels something for him. I feel it, i see it.
Many of my Spuffy pals don't and then i wonder...what do they want exactly? How is this different from Spike and Buffy in the show?*is baffled*

[penny-lane-42.livejournal.com]

Well, there are quite a lot of people who don't find what they want in the show either. And again--that's totally legitimate! We all want different things, and that is okay! But putting the pressure on Buffy to love in a certain way just rubs me completely the wrong way. I am not cool with it.

I'm with you on the scenes in 37. I couldn't be more pleased!

[pamsblau.livejournal.com]

Also i'm a Buffy and an introvert too!

[penny-lane-42.livejournal.com]

I've got several Buffys on my flist! Yay!

And I'm always pleased to meet another introvert!

[deird1]

*loves this post*


This also reminds me of the fact that extroverts run the world (even though introverts are sitting around creating great art and stuff *smirkwink*) and tell the 25% of us who are introverts that we are DOING THINGS WRONG (if you don't believe this, you've never been taught how to "network" or been forced to participate in mixer games or anything like that). Um, no. We aren't. We're doing things the way we do things. And yes, that might not be compatible with the way you do things, and that might frustrate you. And that's okay. BUT QUIT TELLING US THAT OUR WAY OF DOING THINGS IS WRONG.

YES.

I am slowly, oh so slowly, managing to convince the women's ministry team at my church that NO DON'T JUST HAVE COFFEE AND ASSUME EVERYONE WILL CHAT. Have something to DO.

*is big with the jigsaw puzzles and boardgame providing*


(Also wanted to hit someone at my old job - because we were on a three-day work retreat, and in the evening I'm sitting there with the one person who I'd managed to talk into playing jenga, and then they left for a moment to get a drink and this other person comes over and says "Oh, Mez, why are you being so unsociable? Come in to the other room and talk to us!" and, as I said, I wanted to HIT her, because I can't just go and "talk" to people! Jenga is a survival skill that is actually getting me to be sociable - because if I wasn't here using games as a way to interact, I'd be hiding in my room! I am BEING sociable, you moron!

...er, yes. I tend to get rather passionate about this.)

[penny-lane-42.livejournal.com]

*loves you*

I think if I went into psychology, I would want to study introversion/extroversion and how it manifests in society and affects every area of people's lives. You could study that for your entire life and it never get tired.

I am slowly, oh so slowly, managing to convince the women's ministry team at my church that NO DON'T JUST HAVE COFFEE AND ASSUME EVERYONE WILL CHAT. Have something to DO.

Oh, church can be really rough in this way! And of course it's totally unintentional on the part of those who run things--most people are extroverts (or at least on the line between the two) and so that's what they know and they don't even realize there's another way of thinking!

My mama was telling me about a book she just read about introversion and the church, actually. I need to get the name of it and then I'll pass it along to you. I really want to read it, as I'm sure it's fascinating.

I wanted to HIT her, because I can't just go and "talk" to people!

YES. I'm trying to find a new church to plug into, and I have no problem walking into service by myself, but going to class by myself? PETRIFYING. And everyone's telling me just to go for and I'm like, "Why do you not understand how hard this is?"

I am passionate as well.

[blackfrancine.livejournal.com]

Have I ever told you you're my hero? And everything I long to be?

BECAUSE THIS POST IS EVERYTHING. THE END.

It is everything that is true in life.

I wish I'd seen ohwaluvusbab 's comment on your other post. Because that comment is so, so true for me as well. I feel the exact same way. (*ahem* actually I have been tempted to say this very thing about Buffy in season 6, actually). It's not about lack of love--Buffy (and me and ohwaluvusbab) being closed off. It never has been. She's closed off because of pain and vulnerability and loss and fear.

In a way, I really think it's because she loves TOO much. Because I know that for everyone it's scary to expose your feelings. But, when those feelings--that love--cuts to your very core? When it is like the spinal cord that connects every part of you and holds you together and if it's cut off or denied you'll lose your ability to function entirely? It's too terrifying. Even for someone who faces actual death daily.

Also, let's talk about Riley. Last time I watched season 4 and 5 (which was just a couple of months ago), I was struck by how utterly ridiculous Riley's actions were in season 5. Utterly. In season 4, Buffy slowly turns away from everyone in favor of Riley. She (without meaning to) shuts out Giles and grows apart from Willow, Xander AND her mom. (And, hey, that often happens in new relationships. Nothing weird there.) Heck, she even was willing to go guns a'blazin' into the Initiative to get him back with no plan and no intel. So, in short: He was the center of her world. THAT'S how Riley liked their relationship.

As soon as she took command back of her senses and started spending more time with her friends and mom and watcher, poor widdle Riley got his feewings hurt. Then her mother got a freaking tumor and a hell god came after her sister. Poor baby that Buffy can't cater to YOUR feelings while her mom is in the hospital, possibly dying.

And Xander. Oh, Xander. I won't even go into it. Because this comment is already too long.

And last, let me say a big fat WORD to this:

And yes, that might not be compatible with the way you do things, and that might frustrate you. And that's okay. BUT QUIT TELLING US THAT OUR WAY OF DOING THINGS IS WRONG.

This literally happens to me on a weekly basis. Someone tells me I'm not doing it right.

[penny-lane-42.livejournal.com]

Well, you are the wind beneath my wings! ;D

ohwaluvusbab arrived late to the discussion and I knew that most people hadn't seen that comment which is why I shared it here. Because I thought that perspective was so important.

In a way, I really think it's because she loves TOO much. Because I know that for everyone it's scary to expose your feelings. But, when those feelings--that love--cuts to your very core? When it is like the spinal cord that connects every part of you and holds you together and if it's cut off or denied you'll lose your ability to function entirely? It's too terrifying. Even for someone who faces actual death daily.

I love this. And I think that it is too, too true.

I am so totally with you on Riley. SO WITH YOU. Sometimes I let people talk me into the whole, "Oh, he's not so bad. He's generally a good guy, just not right for Buffy" and then I watch his behavior in S5 and I just RAGE ALL OVER AGAIN.

And yeah, if we started on Xander, we'd be here all night, wouldn't we?


This literally happens to me on a weekly basis. Someone tells me I'm not doing it right.

I can't imagine. It doesn't happen to me as often as that, but every time it does, it cuts like a blade. *hugs* You are not doing it wrong. You're doing it how you are. ♥

[jennylayne.livejournal.com]

Okay this.
This also reminds me of the fact that extroverts run the world (even though introverts are sitting around creating great art and stuff *smirkwink*) and tell the 25% of us who are introverts that we are DOING THINGS WRONG (if you don't believe this, you've never been taught how to "network" or been forced to participate in mixer games or anything like that). Um, no. We aren't. We're doing things the way we do things. And yes, that might not be compatible with the way you do things, and that might frustrate you. And that's okay. BUT QUIT TELLING US THAT OUR WAY OF DOING THINGS IS WRONG.

This is so exactly the same way I feel that I can hardly even stand it - I wish I could hug you for real.
I was just recently at a "women's event" where the participants were given prizes based on how many people they "networked" with in 5 minutes , (to me this is just phony and so shallow) so I sat and got to know ONE person a little better in 5 minutes (which obviously equals LOSER) and then the whole room was herded up and made to "jump, dance, whatever" publicly over a threshold in some kind of exercise meant to jumping into a new phase of life. UGH! how I hate that kind of thing. Once upon a time I would gone along with it just so as not to be a party pooper. This time I quietly refused and was scolded.

Why the shaming? I just don't get it, it makes me angry.

Yay introverts!

p.s. Have you ever read the book "The Introvert Advantage" by Marti Laney - a great book.

[penny-lane-42.livejournal.com]

Aw! I send you virtual hugs. I don't feel like people talk about how hard it is to be an introvert enough.

OMG THAT SOUNDS AWFUL. I, too, hate the whole idea of networking--making friends just so you can use each other? That's appalling!--and this whole scenario just sounds horrific.

so I sat and got to know ONE person a little better in 5 minutes

That is exactly what I would have done! And considered it time worth spending!

I haven't ever read that book, but I'm familiar with it. I need to sit down and read it all sometime. Thanks for reminding me!

[ladyofthelog.livejournal.com]

People with invisible disabilities get invalidated all the time (I am including mental illness in here), because people can't see it and for some reason, that makes it not real. Surely you can get it together. Aren't you feeling better already? I know just how you feel *pats knee*. Why can't you do anything like a normal person? No one else has any trouble doing this.

I think that's what you mean, and yeah, that is how people treat Buffy - in canon, and often outside of canon. She can seem impenetrable, but just because she works differently, that doesn't mean she doesn't work.

For myself, I don't think there's any one character I am most like on BtVS. Faith and Buffy are the top two. But I get Buffy. I get her depression, because I've lived that, I've been there. The way she loves is a real and legit way to love. And - well, you've seen my recent posts about introversion and ~romance~. ;)

Buffy keeps people safe by keeping them at a distance. Have people written any meta comparing Who Are You? and Dead Things? Hmm.

[penny-lane-42.livejournal.com]

Yes, that's exactly what I mean. I was hoping I wasn't trivializing it, but it felt the same.


I think that's what you mean, and yeah, that is how people treat Buffy - in canon, and often outside of canon. She can seem impenetrable, but just because she works differently, that doesn't mean she doesn't work.

Yeah, exactly.

I thought of you while I was typing this up! That you've figured out what you need and that it's very different than what a lot of people need but that's okay. Just never date a Riley! ;D


Buffy keeps people safe by keeping them at a distance. Have people written any meta comparing Who Are You? and Dead Things? Hmm.

I don't know! But that would be such an interesting read!

[gigi-tastic.livejournal.com]

you know your like all kinds of crazy smart right? i need to send this to so many people in my life. i hate how people treat me sometimes like my feelings about something are wrong. that i'm not feeling things correctly.

and thats something i've noticed in buffy. everyone on that show feels differently. there no right or wrong but some people (xander and captain cardboard. to name a few) feel like they are entitled to tell people that what they feel is wrong. which is wrong. its like polyester polka dotted elastic wasted pants pared with sandals AND MISS-MATCHES SOCKS WRONG.

i may agree on some characters actions and so forth but i can appreciate the way that they act with their feelings. i can understand and respect buffy being closed off sometimes. (who the hell says she lost the ability to love???? thats insane! all her actions are filled with love.)



i love how full of emotian and passion spike is.

i love how forgiving and sweet tara is.

how deeply innocent anya really is ( shes just so... me. we see the world a lot differently then people and we dont understand why things happen the way they do. for example yes anya understands people die. she gets that. she isnt stupid. she just doesnt understand the feelings you have when someone you knew someone who MATTERED dies. she doesnt get why it had to happen then . to that person. she and i just are so insanely on the same wave length. all her amazing speeches always leave me sobbing and going yes! yes! like her speech on humans? SPOT ON. )

i love everyone on buffy. except riley. he's an ass. and a boring one at that.

[penny-lane-42.livejournal.com]

Thank you! And I'm glad I could verbalize some things for you--people often treat each other this way, and it's wrong.

everyone on that show feels differently. there no right or wrong but some people (xander and captain cardboard. to name a few) feel like they are entitled to tell people that what they feel is wrong.
I agree.

I love that you relate to Anya! She's so wonderful!

[that-september.livejournal.com]

I will not go so far as to say I'm a total Buffy (I think I'm a mix of her and Willow), but I have and do identify heavily with Buffy. Big sister complex? Check. Introvert? Check. Unable to open up emotionally? Check. And I completely agree that she loved Spike in season seven. She might not have ran around shouting it to the rooftops, but she loved. It was a love that had been a long time coming, a love that she had to work on, a love that was not and never would be easy--but it was love, plain and simple. Or perhaps not so simple.

God, I completely agree about extroverts ruling the world. I'm reminded of this every time I take a job interview questionnaire and they try to weed out the introverts, like somehow we can't function in society (questions like: "Are you happier alone or with people?" and, "Do you enjoy being social?"). I have to lie about an intrinsic part of who I am to get hired, because my potential boss will just assume I won't be able to be pleasant to customers or whatever. It's ridiculous. I have what I like to call my extrovert face, the face I put on for people at work and class and when I'm forced to go to a party. I get weary of being told that I need to change, that I'm "weird" because the idea of a huge group of people expecting me to make small talk and be social is not my favorite thing in the world.

/end introvert rant.

[penny-lane-42.livejournal.com]

I love that I have so many people who relate to her on my flist! Since I adore her in every way, as you know.

She might not have ran around shouting it to the rooftops, but she loved. It was a love that had been a long time coming, a love that she had to work on, a love that was not and never would be easy--but it was love, plain and simple. Or perhaps not so simple.

This is exactly how I feel! And beautifully put!

OMG YES. Those interview questions! And you do have to lie! I've lied so many times in interviews because of that! OH, that makes me so MAD!

I have what I like to call my extrovert face, the face I put on for people at work and class and when I'm forced to go to a party.

I have one, too. It's a survival skill, it really is.

I love how much the internet just works for us introverts. Practically my whole flist is introverted, and it's so good to be reminded that I'm not alone.

[marketchippie.livejournal.com]

He's the character on BtVS I always understand, whose point of view I never struggle with. Even when I (violently, sometimes) disagree with the conclusions he arrives at or the choices he makes, I always understand where he's coming from. Because he's just so hungry, so ravenous. He feels so much and wants so much and he can't disguise that. It's all right there. I am the same way. I once made some people on my flist laugh by saying that I spew emotion everywhere, but uh. I do. I can be extremely effusive and demonstrative when I'm really close to people (though very shy and stand-off-ish around people I'm not as close to) and I am unafraid of commitment and talking about any feeling that I might have.

Absobloodylutely. WORD UP, OVERIDENTIFICATION.

You = Spike = me = large amounts of braintwinnage = IT ALL MAKES SENSE.

[penny-lane-42.livejournal.com]

I LOVE THIS. Almost everyone I know loves Spike but doesn't identify with him at all. BUT I DO. AND NOW YOU. YAY.

[next_to_normal]

Yeah, word. I mentioned on the other post that I'm totally 100% a Buffy, so I absolutely get where she and ohwaluvusbab are coming from. It IS hard being an introvert (especially since I'm in a career where networking is everything), and there are so many times when I feel like a failure at life because I don't make connections the way people are supposed to. And my therapist is always giving me suggestions of ways to be more social, and I'm like, "But that's not who I AM." But because I'm unhappy, I feel like my way of doing things must be wrong, and there must be something wrong with me for not being more of an extrovert. I'd never really thought of it as ableism, but it's definitely internalized something.

Now, should she have called things off when she realized she couldn't give him what she wanted? Yeah, that would have been the mature thing to do.

Random tangent, but I don't think she realized she couldn't give him what he wanted until their confrontation in "Into the Woods." She seemed to think everything was fine - one thing Xander gets right in that overidentifying speech of his is that Buffy had no idea she and Riley were imploding. She never really had a chance to make a mature decision, because by the time she realized it, Riley was already issuing ultimatums. Now, maybe that says something about her level of attentiveness in the relationship and their failure to communicate, but given her perception, I'm not sure at what point she should've said, "Hey, this isn't working," because as far as she knew, it was. Which, I think, is the one place where I really don't understand Buffy, because I have always been hyper-aware of the fact that my boyfriends were more invested in our relationship than I was, and it made me uncomfortable (like I mentioned in the other post where he would always say I love you, and I'd be like, "Umm.... thanks?"). But then again, I was never dealing with a hellgod and my mother dying at the same time, either. :)

[penny-lane-42.livejournal.com]

I feel like we need to dismantle this whole system that says that extroversion is the only way to be. I don't know how to go about doing this, but this IS the way we are, and there's nothing wrong with that except with the majority says is wrong with it.

but I don't think she realized she couldn't give him what he wanted until their confrontation in "Into the Woods."

Oh, I agree! I meant to address that! He never once actually told her what his issues were! He never talked to her about it! It makes me stabby to think about it!

But then again, I was never dealing with a hellgod and my mother dying at the same time, either. :)

True, true. And her former experience was with Angel, who just popped in and out and they had BIG! DRAMATIC! MOMENTS! She's not used the day-to-day kind of relationship.

[samsom.livejournal.com]

I'm still so amazed when I read people saying they didn't think Buffy was capable of loving anyone in s7...and honestly, I think it really does go back to measuring her by their own actions and reactions to love.

Well, lemme tell you, I saw nothing but love from Buffy towards Spike in s7. That look on her face when she went and got him back from The First. *swoon* That was "I got you back, and I'm not gonna let anyone hurt you again" omg, my heart. Ignoring a bleeding Xander (not gonna lie, I crowed a bit) because Spike got knocked down and the way they stared at each other, as if no one else were in the room. It was amazing. That handclasp moment when she tried to see if he'd been hurt in the graveyard and all the Potentials were going "buh?".

And because she said so.

Buffy's a Capricorn. So am I. I like to think I understand her inability to articulate things. It's not easy to say I love you, but oh, does that emotion just roll around inside like a thunderstorm at sea.

I love Spuffy. If I weren't already so happily married to C/A, I'd be eyeing the ship a lot more. :D

[aerintine.livejournal.com]

I have only skimmed the comments because I was too anxious to jump in and comment on this lovely post. You just keep banging them out this week.

When I was a girl I was a Willow. I longed to be somebody worth noticing. I was shy with strangers but liked by other kids because I was unobtrusive. This was me for a long time.

When my boobs grew in and I learned about love I became a Spike. I mooned over love unrequited and tried and tried to find that perfect love. I gushed and gave and stoked some fire. I poured myself into my romantic relationships full-stop.

When I got my heart smashed I became a Buffy. There's nothing quite like loving someone with your whole EVERYTHING and then having it turn on you abruptly and horribly. When you get hurt like that, well, your heart can collapse in on itself. "Putting yourself out there" will likely never happen again. the kind of love you cherish from then on out is quiet, held close to the chest.

See, none of us EVER over-identifies with these characters, right? :)

I approached BtVS on first viewing as a Spike. He's still my default mode - if I'm frustrated or confused at any development going on - I usually revert to Spike's POV. Which, really, is how I learned to love Buffy SO much. Spike started as my favorite character. Then he had to scooch over and make room for Buffy. Because when I finally understood her, when I finally got it? That became a love unrivaled by anything. Spike made me do it. He loved her more than life, and made me look at her closer to understand why.

So, these day's I'm a Buffy. I love with my whole body and no one is immune from this love. I see the good in people - I actively seek it out. But I hold my heart close because I need it, and if I don't protect it then I worry no one will.

Wow - that was a bit of over-sharing, yes? Guess I'm still a Spike after all. :)

[blackfrancine.livejournal.com]

I approached BtVS on first viewing as a Spike. He's still my default mode - if I'm frustrated or confused at any development going on - I usually revert to Spike's POV. Which, really, is how I learned to love Buffy SO much. Spike started as my favorite character. Then he had to scooch over and make room for Buffy. Because when I finally understood her, when I finally got it? That became a love unrivaled by anything. Spike made me do it. He loved her more than life, and made me look at her closer to understand why.

This is VERY similar to my experience. I'm not exactly sure when my POV moved from Spike's to Buffy's. I'm inclined to believe it was during season 6 sometime. But once it moved there, I realized how alike she and I were, and I haven't been able to tolerate a bad word against her since then.

But I still have that Spike-POV lens on almost all the time. Well... It's a Buffy POV lens, but with a Spike POV gauzy overlay effect or something. My point is that I most deeply identify with Buffy--but that the initial connection to Spike is always there for me.

[local-max.livejournal.com]

Excellent! You know, I wonder sometimes if the difficulty people have connecting with Buffy in the later seasons is the way she starts off being fairly extroverted and ends up an introvert. Introverted characters are sometimes acceptable, but only with the understanding that they get more extroverted as time goes on, because that's how people should behave. This is Willow's arc to a degree (blah blah, oh look he's talking about Willow again STOP IT)--she feels great pressure to be hip and cool and actually does so, but in the process she loses basically all her introspection, and the more balanced Willow in season seven spends most of her time alone or with her partner. (Introspection FTW!)

Whatever. I always feel there's something wrong with me whenever I don't go to mixers or whatever you're supposed to do. But it's very hard connecting from inside to outside, you know? Especially with people I know I'm not going to get a chance to communicate with deeply, because I'm not really sure where to begin. I feel a little like Giles in Welcome to the Hellmouth, at the Bronze: "Oh, right, this is me having fun. Watching... clown hair prance about is hardly my idea of a party. I'd much rather be at home with a cup of Bovril and a good book." Ha! Season 1!Buffy naturally assumes this is because he's not interesting ("You need a personality, STAT") but we know from later on it's not that Giles is a prude or doesn't know how to have fun. It's just a much more personal, one-on-one kind (see, for ex., his dates with Olivia). In "A Beautiful Sunset" in season eight, Buffy looks wistfully at a party in the castle where the slayers dance, but she doesn't join in, and I don't think it's just because she is afraid to or separated from them as their leader; I think she just doesn't feel the same pull to party in a large group, and doesn't quite understand it.

Incidentally, I've oddly never had trouble identifying with Riley in season five. Like, not in a "hey, he sure knows how to deal with this maturely and isn't a jerk!" kind of way. But I never have any trouble knowing where he's coming from. I was once having a relationship fall apart while my girlfriend's grandfather was dying, and it was very hard to deal with the fact that I wanted to be there for her, but couldn't do anything, and that I really wanted to leave. There was another relationship where I was dating someone who had great emotional pain and huge responsibilities, and it was tough knowing how little I could do. It's still the same now: I haven't experienced much loss personally, so I identify much more with the Scooby act in "The Body" than the Buffy or Dawn ones. Of course, I managed to deal with the initial relationship without going to vamp hookers, so, score one for me. And I hurt for Buffy so much.

my sole response to this post

[madcap-shiny.livejournal.com]

SEE ICON.

[knifeedgefic.livejournal.com]

I'm a Spike that loves like a Buffy. I over identify with Spike so, so much--I can't even begin to list all the ways in which I do. And maybe there was a time when I loved like him, big and sloppy and all over the place and wanting everything I couldn't have.

But people got hurt. I got hurt. I closed up everything and buttoned it up tight. Now I love quietly, undemonstratively maybe.

Actually, I think Spike and Buffy's versions of love coincide pretty well in S7. They're both quieter about it. They don't talk about it. It's there and they feel it so deeply and it doesn't really need words or labels. It doesn't have to *be* anything. It just is. It's a constant love, and is unwavering for the other person.

Sure, Spike is still insecure. He's unsure of his place in her heart, but he knows that she knows how he feels about her and that's okay. He can live with always loving her quietly, because he knows it's not going to fade in time. And Buffy... well, she's not sure what the future holds. She knows how he feels, and how she feels, even if she's not willing to name it until the end. She might not understand that he's too insecure to get what she's feeling for him--Spike's always understood her so well, I don't think it occurs to her that this is his blind spot.

But I think she does love him. Very much. And I think he loves her so deeply it's like breathing.

And yeah, I'm not really saying anything new here, except that I get it and agree wholeheartedly.

Thing is, I fell in love with Buffy because Spike loved her. I wasn't sure of her, for a long time, but he loved her so I knew there was something in her worth loving. Writing my current fic really made me try to get in her head and try to understand things from her POV... and now, while I still overly identify with Spike, I think I'm a little bit Buffy, too. And I love them both.

...

Xander's little speech in Into the Woods however went a long way toward making me dislike a character that I had always enjoyed before that. Really, WTF was he thinking?

[ever-neutral.livejournal.com]

This post. ♥ This fandom. ♥

brb shaking and crying

[eilowyn.livejournal.com]

*Huggles*

And yay for learning how to make hearts! ♥ ♥ ♥

[jamalov29.livejournal.com]

Agreeing on lots of things you wrote about Buffy and her emotional behavior.
Anyways again! Buffy's way of loving is definitely not my way of loving It's not mine either, which never prevented me for loving her hard and trying to always see things her way. I was quite happy with what I got from her in season 7 , even if I sometimes wanted more. It was also enough for me because I tried to understand her.
I also admit that my own beliefs about love and life comitment of course weigh in how I enjoy a fictional love story and I'm happier when it meets my own expectations but it doesn't mean that I can't appreciate something else.

[laeria.livejournal.com]

Having seen Into the Woods just yesterday, this is relevant to my interests.

Oh, my, god, what. How is "you never cry around / about me" an indicator of a bad relationship? How does it translate to "you don't care"? I nearly never cry. Does that make me uncaring? No. And while it's acceptable that Dawn's comparing Buffy-at-sixteen to Buffy-at-twenty, everyone else, being adults, should know better. Well, Buffy does know better, but then she's swayed by Xander-the-champion-of-downtrodden-Nice-Guys.

There were many things wrong with Buffy's relationship with Riley (more than with Angel, which just felt melodramatically cheesy and kinda outdated), but what bugs me most is the constant repetition of "I am normal, you are peculiar". Buffy can't drive? Weird! But I'll accept it. Buffy's stronger than me? Weird! But I'll accept it! I'm just that nice!

I get that "girl weird, guy average" is a theme of the season. I can swallow it with Anya/Xander, because most of it happens off-screen, and because everyone else treats her even worse than Xander does, and also she likes him for some ludicrous reason and I want my Anya to have the things she likes (especially orgasms). But with Buffy, it's horrible to see she's treated like everything she is and does is acceptably, adorably wrong - because she's always been aware of it. And it hurts her. She no longer tries to fit in, as she knows she can't, but every time Riley makes a show of Accepting This About You, Buffy's hurt. [At least, I think she is: I admit I may be projecting, as a weird girl who's been in the clutches of a Nice Guy before. What do you think, O Mistress of Many Rewatchings?]

And then, suddenly, he's unable to accept the way she expresses her emotions, and also everyone feels qualified to tell her what her emotions are. And she believes them. And. Just. It's so annoying, the way love's apparently a strictly-defined set of behaviours and emotions (when I am with you, I wanna ~*~die~*~) and if she's not conforming to it, she's obviously the one at fault.

tl;dr: word.

[eilowyn.livejournal.com]

Great read on the Nice Guys of Season 5. It's like all Nice Guys want that Manic Pixie Dream Girl (to steal a phrase from the AV Club), but once they have her, they want her to be normal and will do everything in their power to change her. I like Anya's peculiarities. I love Buffy's strength and fortitude. This is one of the episodes that point out why it's so hard for me to get behind Xander - that and the fact that I will always project my issues with my brother onto him (stop putting me down, dumbass - my peculiarity IS CALLED CLINICAL DEPRESSION . . . er, sorry you had to see that!), but yeah. Word.

[diamondtook862.livejournal.com]

Wonderful post (can't believe I missed the convo with Ohwaluvusbab).

I'm definitely a Spike, which is why I never doubted that he loved her after Intervention, soul or no (and I'm rather extreme in my soul-beliefs). I identify with Buffy in the introversion and the depression, but with Spike in the emotion-spewing and non-self-protection.

Of course, in the interest of all the self-revelation going on, I haven't had a serious relationship since the last Spike-like love went horribly wrong, and that could be related (like with Buffy), so for all I know I do love like Buffy now, and don't even know it.

And I am an introvert, and am totally with you on the trying to break into a church thing. (side note)

[ever-neutral.livejournal.com]

What up.

can't believe I missed the convo with Ohwaluvusbab

It's okay. I forgive you this once for not efficiently stalking me.

[lusciousxander.livejournal.com]

Wonderful post. I relate to Buffy a lot when it comes to love. I love with my actions, and not my words. Buffy's way of loving is my way of loving, and I can see how it annoys the people around me, even my husband who's more like Spike. It's difficult at times, but we're making it work because we do love each other, even though our way of showing it is different.

[gabrielleabelle.livejournal.com]

*hasn't read all the comments*

Ah, silly extroverts. My pet peeve is the assumption that introversion necessarily equals "shyness". I'm not shy. But I'm often quiet in large groups. I abhor when people act like I'm shy or tell me I should mingle more. No. No, I don't want to. I'm just chilling. I have nothing really to add, but if I did, I would say it. Fuck off.

Anyway, where was I?

Ah, I'm not really a Buffy or a Spike. I'm a Willow (Okay, with a bit of Buffy in me). But I loves Buffy and Spike, and I can grok their viewpoint pretty easily.

I think it's interesting to compare how Buffy expresses emotions in the later seasons with how she does so in S2. In S2, she is incredibly effusive and emotional. Her running, in tears, to Angel in Surprise after she has a dream of him dying. That is what we think about girls in love. It's kinda the cliche.

But in S7? We don't get that. Buffy's closed off, and we, instead, get her quietly supportive attitude. The looks. The actions. She doesn't waste time talking the talk because she's busy walking the walk. Oh hai, guys, I could speechify about my great love for Spike but Ima gonna go off and rescue him now instead, kk?

While I may be Willow most of the time, Buffy's later approach to emotion and relationships mirrors my own, for the most part. I'm reserved about my feelings. Even now that I'm in a relationship, it's something that's between me and him. I don't display it to the world. There's no need. Across the room, he can look at me and smile, and I know that he loves me.

That's where I see Buffy and Spike in S7. They're private. They don't need to show off their relationship to others because it's something that belongs to them. I do think there is some hesitation in S7 as far as where their relationship might go, and that's compounded by the fact that they're in a war situation. But the relationship is there for me. I can't not see it.

And I rambled. But I'm stopping now to go to class. I'll read the comments after that. :)

[zombie_boogie.livejournal.com]

Wooo introverts. I mean, I can be outgoing in particular situations (like around people I'm comfortable with. And I think I give the impression of being extroverted online because I get to use words instead of body language, which is so much more comfortable for me. Tangent). But the situations you described - like mixers and such - oh man terrifying. I think I identify with Buffy more than any other character on BtVS because I do feel deeply, but I'm more guarded about it. So I often find myself getting defensive of characters like her, because so many people tend to be down on characters that aren't open books (especially female characters - because male characters are allowed to be stoic and emotionally guarded but if a female character behaves that way than she's "cold" bah).

And don't even get me started on Xander in that episode. STAB STAB STAB STAB STAB.

That is my standard reaction to Xander. So.

[timeofchange.livejournal.com]

Awesome post of awesomeness!

[eilowyn.livejournal.com]

Wow. Yet another awesome post I pretty much completely missed. I've had this tab open since yesterday because I totally intended to reply, but school happened and kerfuffules happened and watching Glee with my Mama happened and now I finally get back to this when I should be getting back to my essay on the importance of a liberal education even in vocational work. Real exciting, right?

Anyway, I'm really sad I missed this discussion. I have major introverted tendencies, though I don't think I can call myself an introvert, and the I can relate and identify with late season Spike and Buffy to a degree that choosing one over the other is worse than Sophie's Choice (have you read that? I found out the author was depressive and became more interested).

I liked what Gabs said about being quiet in crowds but extroverted one on one, and I think that's where I fall.

Will try to go through comments again and participate, mostly because I know you discussed a lot of ministry stuff, which I'm curious about.