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in which I get rambly again
First off, anyone who watches The Vampire Diaries, go read this epic post of epicness by ![[livejournal.com profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/external/lj-userinfo.gif)
ineffort (I'm so proud to call you my friend! *sob*) who doesn't write meta often but totally SHOULD. Her thoughts about Stefan and Katherine (and, peripherally, Damon and a tad bit of Elena) are GENIUS and make me flail with love for this show. WITH BONUS PICSPAMS AND MIX. GET ON THAT.
Once you've done that, you can read the rest of this!
So if you've been around here for very long, you know that I identify with Spike. Like, a lot. A lot a lot. He's the character on BtVS I always understand, whose point of view I never struggle with. Even when I (violently, sometimes) disagree with the conclusions he arrives at or the choices he makes, I always understand where he's coming from. Because he's just so hungry, so ravenous. He feels so much and wants so much and he can't disguise that. It's all right there. I am the same way. I once made some people on my flist laugh by saying that I spew emotion everywhere, but uh. I do. I can be extremely effusive and demonstrative when I'm really close to people (though very shy and stand-off-ish around people I'm not as close to) and I am unafraid of commitment and talking about any feeling that I might have.
Also if you've been around, you know I've become the world's (second) biggest fan of Buffy Summers. And you know that it was a long journey to that place. Because she's pretty much the opposite of who I am. The first time I really identified with her was when Dawn came along and she was all I MUST PROTECT MY SISTER. (I have a big sister complex, basically.) So getting into her headspace is pretty much a constant process for me. But a rewarding one, because it's always really good to look at things from very different povs, you know?
Anyways! Because it was such a struggle for me to grow to understand Buffy, it's always nice when someone who identifies more with her offers their insight.
If I am Spike, thenohwaluvusbab is Buffy. Which I guess means that we should have a crazy love/hate relationship involving banter and UST and redemption arcs? Okay, we'll get right on that. And she shared something with me in the comments to my last BtVS-related post (which I swear I'm going to answer replies to sooner or later) that was so insightful and true that I wanted to share it:
And I was all, "Brb, shaking and crying." Because YES. Buffy is still capable of extreme acts of self-sacrifice and compassion and even empathy. What is love if it's not that? I struggle with this idea that she's not "capable" of love in S7. Possibly in S6, because depression often manifests itself in such a way as to pull you so far inside your own head that it's almost impossible to see anything from anyone else's perspective (which, imo, is pretty necessary to love). [Not to say that there aren't lots of people who can love even while depressed, because there are. And Buffy may well be one of them. I'm one of them. I usually don't say she was incapable of loving anyone in S6--I hope I don't, anyways--though I will say I think she was incapable of having a healthy relationship at the time because I think she was. But that's different than not loving, you know?] But in S7, she's past that.
All of this reminds me of Riley in S5. He wants a relationship with someone who is emotionally open, who will lean on him in hard times, and who will talk about how they're ~feeling. And that is fine. That is a 100% legitimate thing to want in a relationship. It honestly sounds like a great one, and I hope he found that in Sam.
But Buffy was never going to be that person. That's not how she is. And he blames her for that. Which pisses me off. Now, should she have called things off when she realized she couldn't give him what she wanted? Yeah, that would have been the mature thing to do. If, you know, she wasn't dealing with Glory and her mom's sickness and everything. I really think the last thing she needed at that point was to have to break up with this guy. But anyways! Yeah, she's partially at fault for the whole breakdown of that relationship.
What she is 100% not at fault for was his decision to react to her emotional closed-off-ness (is that a word? I think not, but it should be) by going to the vamp hookers and putting her in danger (honestly, if that wasn't a metaphor for sleeping around sans-protection and the possibility of passing along an STD to a partner, I don't know what is. He could so easily have been turned! And then hurt Buffy! Or anyone! Dangerous behavior is dangerous and not ever justified. I feel zero sympathy for him about that). He basically blames her. NO. I also get pissed at him because he gives her an ultimatum and then says that it isn't an ultimatum. But it is. Instead of sitting her down and saying, "Buffy, I'm going to ask you straight out if you can ever give me what I need, and if you can't, I need to break this off, because it can't be healthy unless we're on the same page," he acts like she is the one who totally needs to change or he's leaving OH TONIGHT. I just think that's massively douchey.
And don't even get me started on Xander in that episode. STAB STAB STAB STAB STAB.
AH! Ramble! What was I telling? I don't even know.
Anyway, back to Buffy. Buffy's way of loving is not the average way of loving. This also reminds me of the fact that extroverts run the world (even though introverts are sitting around creating great art and stuff *smirkwink*) and tell the 25% of us who are introverts that we are DOING THINGS WRONG (if you don't believe this, you've never been taught how to "network" or been forced to participate in mixer games or anything like that). Um, no. We aren't. We're doing things the way we do things. And yes, that might not be compatible with the way you do things, and that might frustrate you. And that's okay. BUT QUIT TELLING US THAT OUR WAY OF DOING THINGS IS WRONG.
It also kind of reminds me of ableism re: mental health? I don't know if I'm taking this too far (ladyofthelog, smack me down if I am), but don't able-minded people tell those of us with emotional/mental problems all the time that the way we interact just isn't good enough? And though I think Buffy is not clinically depressed in S7, she may still have some mental struggles and even if she doesn't? It still sort of reminds me of that. It makes me feel all squirmy inside.
Anyways again! Buffy's way of loving is definitely not my way of loving (I'm Spike, remember?). And I honestly don't know if I'd want to be in a relationship with someone who loved that way. I think I want more of what Riley wants, honestly, though I don't really know at this point for sure. But I support her right to love that way and not be judged for it. This is a woman who died to save the world and her sister multiple times. And who forgives and forgives and forgives. That's pretty extraordinary. I love it.
I don't even know what I'm saying anymore. I'm going to shut up now. Really, I just wanted to share that quote with you because I thought it was awesome. Yeah. Shutting up.
ineffort (I'm so proud to call you my friend! *sob*) who doesn't write meta often but totally SHOULD. Her thoughts about Stefan and Katherine (and, peripherally, Damon and a tad bit of Elena) are GENIUS and make me flail with love for this show. WITH BONUS PICSPAMS AND MIX. GET ON THAT.Once you've done that, you can read the rest of this!
So if you've been around here for very long, you know that I identify with Spike. Like, a lot. A lot a lot. He's the character on BtVS I always understand, whose point of view I never struggle with. Even when I (violently, sometimes) disagree with the conclusions he arrives at or the choices he makes, I always understand where he's coming from. Because he's just so hungry, so ravenous. He feels so much and wants so much and he can't disguise that. It's all right there. I am the same way. I once made some people on my flist laugh by saying that I spew emotion everywhere, but uh. I do. I can be extremely effusive and demonstrative when I'm really close to people (though very shy and stand-off-ish around people I'm not as close to) and I am unafraid of commitment and talking about any feeling that I might have.
Also if you've been around, you know I've become the world's (second) biggest fan of Buffy Summers. And you know that it was a long journey to that place. Because she's pretty much the opposite of who I am. The first time I really identified with her was when Dawn came along and she was all I MUST PROTECT MY SISTER. (I have a big sister complex, basically.) So getting into her headspace is pretty much a constant process for me. But a rewarding one, because it's always really good to look at things from very different povs, you know?
Anyways! Because it was such a struggle for me to grow to understand Buffy, it's always nice when someone who identifies more with her offers their insight.
If I am Spike, then
ohwaluvusbab is Buffy. Which I guess means that we should have a crazy love/hate relationship involving banter and UST and redemption arcs? Okay, we'll get right on that. And she shared something with me in the comments to my last BtVS-related post (which I swear I'm going to answer replies to sooner or later) that was so insightful and true that I wanted to share it:
Full disclosure: I am a Buffy. Completely. I feel so connected with her because pretty much the way she functions, lS THE WAY I FUNCTION. (If this is cause for criticism from certain people, fine. Whatever. Come at me.) And this is why I can tell you with 100% certainty that in S7, Buffy loved Spike. It is not even in question.
...
I think part of the issue is that people are judging Buffy-in-love by the way she was with Angel.
You are 100% right about this. I'll go further. I'd say people judge Buffy-in-love by THEIR own idea of what love is supposed to look like. I see some people say that Buffy's not capable of love by S7, which... I can understand why they think this. But on bad days, I find this sentiment pretty damn insulting. To me, it's akin to saying, "YOUR love is inadequate, because it doesn't meet certain requirements us emotionally healthy people have ordained." (Which, hey, possibly over-identifying here. I'll be the first to admit I'm not well-adjusted. I feel such compassion for Buffy in S7 because I've also doubted at length about my own ability to love. Over-sharing. Whatever.) Just. Fuck. Fuck this ~conventional, acceptable way~ of relationships. Buffy called it love. WHY IS THAT NOT GOOD ENOUGH.
And I was all, "Brb, shaking and crying." Because YES. Buffy is still capable of extreme acts of self-sacrifice and compassion and even empathy. What is love if it's not that? I struggle with this idea that she's not "capable" of love in S7. Possibly in S6, because depression often manifests itself in such a way as to pull you so far inside your own head that it's almost impossible to see anything from anyone else's perspective (which, imo, is pretty necessary to love). [Not to say that there aren't lots of people who can love even while depressed, because there are. And Buffy may well be one of them. I'm one of them. I usually don't say she was incapable of loving anyone in S6--I hope I don't, anyways--though I will say I think she was incapable of having a healthy relationship at the time because I think she was. But that's different than not loving, you know?] But in S7, she's past that.
All of this reminds me of Riley in S5. He wants a relationship with someone who is emotionally open, who will lean on him in hard times, and who will talk about how they're ~feeling. And that is fine. That is a 100% legitimate thing to want in a relationship. It honestly sounds like a great one, and I hope he found that in Sam.
But Buffy was never going to be that person. That's not how she is. And he blames her for that. Which pisses me off. Now, should she have called things off when she realized she couldn't give him what she wanted? Yeah, that would have been the mature thing to do. If, you know, she wasn't dealing with Glory and her mom's sickness and everything. I really think the last thing she needed at that point was to have to break up with this guy. But anyways! Yeah, she's partially at fault for the whole breakdown of that relationship.
What she is 100% not at fault for was his decision to react to her emotional closed-off-ness (is that a word? I think not, but it should be) by going to the vamp hookers and putting her in danger (honestly, if that wasn't a metaphor for sleeping around sans-protection and the possibility of passing along an STD to a partner, I don't know what is. He could so easily have been turned! And then hurt Buffy! Or anyone! Dangerous behavior is dangerous and not ever justified. I feel zero sympathy for him about that). He basically blames her. NO. I also get pissed at him because he gives her an ultimatum and then says that it isn't an ultimatum. But it is. Instead of sitting her down and saying, "Buffy, I'm going to ask you straight out if you can ever give me what I need, and if you can't, I need to break this off, because it can't be healthy unless we're on the same page," he acts like she is the one who totally needs to change or he's leaving OH TONIGHT. I just think that's massively douchey.
And don't even get me started on Xander in that episode. STAB STAB STAB STAB STAB.
AH! Ramble! What was I telling? I don't even know.
Anyway, back to Buffy. Buffy's way of loving is not the average way of loving. This also reminds me of the fact that extroverts run the world (even though introverts are sitting around creating great art and stuff *smirkwink*) and tell the 25% of us who are introverts that we are DOING THINGS WRONG (if you don't believe this, you've never been taught how to "network" or been forced to participate in mixer games or anything like that). Um, no. We aren't. We're doing things the way we do things. And yes, that might not be compatible with the way you do things, and that might frustrate you. And that's okay. BUT QUIT TELLING US THAT OUR WAY OF DOING THINGS IS WRONG.
It also kind of reminds me of ableism re: mental health? I don't know if I'm taking this too far (
ladyofthelog, smack me down if I am), but don't able-minded people tell those of us with emotional/mental problems all the time that the way we interact just isn't good enough? And though I think Buffy is not clinically depressed in S7, she may still have some mental struggles and even if she doesn't? It still sort of reminds me of that. It makes me feel all squirmy inside. Anyways again! Buffy's way of loving is definitely not my way of loving (I'm Spike, remember?). And I honestly don't know if I'd want to be in a relationship with someone who loved that way. I think I want more of what Riley wants, honestly, though I don't really know at this point for sure. But I support her right to love that way and not be judged for it. This is a woman who died to save the world and her sister multiple times. And who forgives and forgives and forgives. That's pretty extraordinary. I love it.
I don't even know what I'm saying anymore. I'm going to shut up now. Really, I just wanted to share that quote with you because I thought it was awesome. Yeah. Shutting up.
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I think it's also why I'm less into writing Spike/Buffy smut. It all feels too much like opening a door that should stay shut. Which is strange considering Smashed. But once we get to Season 7, I just... this is why I love the face-to-black in Chosen. I know people hate that so much, but I love it because it's the exclamation point on the intense privacy of their love.
It's not for us. It's for them.
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It never fails to get me down how she's misunderstood. Just again feels like how I'm misunderstood. /overidentifies
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Yeah, I have a similar reaction--the other day I was having a conversation with someone who said post-soul Spike was still doing everything for pretty selfish reasons. And I just had to stop the conversation. I couldn't do it. Sometimes I really want to have these rational conversations, but I just overidentify so much that it feels like judgment. So. *hugs*
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Yeah, I can't help but take it personally when I read Buffy bashing. And oh god, you know how I'm dreading what's coming. I couldn't take Buffy being called a "bitch" regarding the comments in #36. Like, I had to immediately shut that down and hand out penalty cards with an icy glare for all, saying if I saw anyone say that one more time I would flip my shit all in their face. They did NOT want that.
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I'm dreading the future, too. It almost balances out my squee, the dread. But not quite.
I love you forever for SHUTTING THAT DOWN. Good for you.
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Faith'll call Buffy a bitch, but I can totally see her punching any tool who dares (i.e. Scott hope wannabes).
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Psst! Can I tell you a Buffy-and-Faith related secret? I'm thinking of writing a post-NFA friendship fic of the two of them for Snick's birthday!
Also, I just realized I never wrote you birthday fic because I was at such a bad place at the time. I should write you half-birthday fic! When's your half-birthday?
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I'm going to be so EXCITED to see this fic. You know I'm there in any and all ways to ~support~ this endeavor.
And you're so sweet! December 2 is my half-birthday, but you don't have to. You know I just love your fic any way I can get it. :D
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O.O
YES. This had never occurred to me - but you're so right.
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My favorite way to write them is by remaining true to what they wouldn't say, what they wouldn't do, but what they want to do but can't. I tend to think about them in terms of aborted action and words. So tentative. And action requires steel.
What I love so much about them is that every moment is full, every moment is a struggle to express themselves. It's so hard. And if it's so hard, why do they keep trying? Because it's IMPORTANT. The fact that they struggle just makes it more precious to me because I struggle to connect to, and the effort put in is a measure of love (if one would dare to measure love).
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I've never written smut of any kind, and I like to keep my love scenes purposefully vague. And that's especially important with Buffy and Spike. I so understand why you felt uncomfortable.
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I always found it a bit weird that I couldn't really write (or for that matter, read) Buffy/Spike smut without feeling weird and uncomfortable - but had no problem writing my Dawn/Xander remix, or my Angel/Illyria hatesex. It's like a completely different thing.
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But with Buffy and Buffy/Spike, it's private. And I guess I'm always so aware that Buffy wants it to be private.
*thinky thoughts*
Your Angel/Illyria hatesex fic is so awesome. But you know I love that. And of course Illyria dominates those encounters and she recognizes no shyness. I love Illyria as a character but it's so rare for her to be written well in fic; I think it requires a poetic styling which you and Quinara do very well.
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I think I've decided that the best way to write Illyria involves a tiny degree of vulnerability.
If I write her absolutely on top of everything, it sounds stupid - whereas, if she's at least a bit vulnerable, or slightly afraid, or a smidge confused...
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Also, I much appreciate your disinclination to write Spuffy smut. Which you probably knew already. :)
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And I'm always happy to feed your not-more-smut fix!