lirazel | I have some thoughts about shipping

I've been writing this in bits and pieces over the last few days, and I've finally plugged in all the pieces, I think. It's not as thoughtful or well-constructed as I wish it was, but I'm going to throw this out there.

And no, this doesn't really have anything to do with the current flare-ups here in Buffy fandom that seem like they might explode into shipping wars at any moment. This is less an examination of one ship versus another and more a series of thoughts about shippers versus everyone else. Just as a disclaimer. Your ship will not be bashed within, no matter what it is.

I do identify as a shipper. In case you couldn't tell from my ship/quote meme a while back, I tend to get a little invested in romantic relationships in fiction. *ahem*

I also tend to get invested in platonic relationships. Don't get me started about Spike&Dawn or Veronica&Keith or the Doctor&Donna (UNTIL THE END OH DOCTOR I WILL NEVER FORGIVE YOU) or Adelle&Topher or various sitcom gangs (That 70s Show, How I Met Your Mother, COMMUNITY COMMUNITY COMMUNITY)--definitely don't get me started on sibling relationships: I will definitely go on for hours (the Summers girls! The Donnelly boys! The Tams! The Blacks! The Winchesters back before my epic break up with that show! I could go on and on and on!).

I'm a character-watcher. I love good worldbuilding as much as the next person, and I always appreciate a well-plotted story, and I will totally get picky about continuity...but it's characters that make me watch, that get me invested. I don't cry because something happens, I cry because something happens to a character I care about. I'm not filled with joy because of this turn of events, I'm filled with joy because this turn of events happens to a character I care about. As much as I hated Pamela, when it comes right down to it, in the battle between Richardson versus Fielding, I am Team Richardson all the way. CHARACTER FTW.

And a huge part of characters are relationships. Platonic or otherwise, we become different people depending on who we're with (I absolutely know there's a fantastic quote that I love that I should be using here, but I can't remember what it is!). I'm a different person with my mama than I am with the BFF than I am with my boss than I am with a stranger on the street. That's how it is to be human.

Sometimes when I'm watching a show, I really love what a particular relationship reveals about a given character, and so I'm very drawn to that particular relationship. I love the way Spike and Dawn bond over being outsiders, over being pretty immature, and later over their mutual grief, and I also love that she's totally unintimidated by him and that he really likes (and will protect) her for who she is. I love the way that Tommy Donnelly would do anything for his brothers (that show won me over absolutely when Tommy takes off to go kill someone and Kevin got in the elevator with him and Tommy goes, "Where're you going?" And Kevin just looks at him and goes, "Wherever you're going," like it's the most obvious thing in the world. YES). Community is a flail-fest for me, because they keep putting new characters in moments of interaction and it is always awesome and I flail.

But more people tend to be fannish over romantic ships than they do about platonic relationships. Sure, there are quite a lot of Spike&Dawn fans out there, and I recently discovered there are more Angel&Connor fans than I thought there were (yay!), and I don't think anyone who loves Veronica Mars doesn't have a soft-spot for Veronica&Keith. But they don't seem to prompt as many fanworks, as much fic, as many flaily posts or icons or what have you.

Perhaps this is just because fic in general seems skewed towards shipping and away from gen, whether that shipping is het or slash or femmslash or whatever. People like sex. (Even if I'm one of those people who gets bored by all the porn in fandom.) Perhaps, also, this is because so many fics are all about getting the two characters together, which is easier to write about in romantic relationships: there are clear road signs that we all understand--the first kiss, the first "I love you," the first fight, the first time having sex, etc.--that make it simply easier to write fic about.

So fannish cliques (I hesitate to use that word, but I can't think of another) tend to grow up around specific romantic ships, with the gaps often bridged by love of a common character (I'm thinking specifically of the fact that there are a ton of Spuffy fans who get along great with Spangel fans or Spander fans or Spike/anyone-at-all fans--that common love of Spike is enough, especially with a character that's polarizing in the larger fandom). We have loads of fun together because we can be sure that we're watching the similar shows and because we create works our friends want to consume. It's happy times for all! (Well. Most of the time.)

But then there's non-shippers relationships to shippers. This is something I'm running up against a lot lately, and it hasn't been pretty. Because there's a great deal of disdain from non-shippers towards shippers. As though anything a shipper says can be totally disregarded simply because that person is a shipper. This drives me crazy, but I've been seeing it a lot: the belief that if you identify as a shipper at all, anything you say is automatically worth nothing.

This reaction grows out of a false view of shippers, I think, which is that shipping is all we care about. I'm sure there are some shippers whose entire love of a given canon is based around one relationship. I've encountered a few of them, and even though that isn't my thing, I say to each their own and move on. But I really do believe that the majority of shippers aren't there just for the ships. They love many things about the canon, even if they tend to be fannish about ships.

For instance. With Community, I do ship Jeff/Annie because I love the idea of this really snarky, cynical guy finding this overachieving, naive girl irresistible (I ignore the age difference. Yes, I do). But if they don't ever become canon? I don't care. If the show ever shoots them down (which it won't: this show loves flirting with possible pairings it will probably never pursue further, which is one thing that's so hilarious about it), I'd be momentarily sad, but then I'd move on. Because there are so many more things I love about this show. I love Troy&Abed and Abed&Jeff and Jeff&Shirley and Shirley&Annie and Annie&Britta and Britta&Troy, etc, etc, etc. I love Senor Chang and the Dean and the jokes about Glee and the way it skewers college tropes. I love that it's so not ironic and is so fond of its own characters. I love that it's actually funny and--this is key--that the humor arises out of characterization.

I love all of that. That's why I watch. But yeah, I ship, too.

The fact that I do ship absolutely shouldn't mean that any of my opinions about the show are worthless. It shouldn't. But I feel like it often does.

This is annoying enough as it is, because the idea of one thing about you determining everyone's reaction to you is just sad (especiallyespeciallyespecially when it's something as mundane as your reaction to a television show). But there's something that takes it past being aggravating and right into being just plain ugly:

It's gendered.

If you don't believe me, see this post.

ruuger pointed out in the comments that it's almost always gendered, which was something I hadn't gotten all riled up about, because it hadn't been that blatant to me, but I am now.

Does anybody remember this article (which I'm not linking directly to because I don't want to give them more page hits--I have no idea about this blog I'm linking to, but it's got to be better than this MRA group) about women "ruining" sci-fi? It was written by a Men's Rights group, which is enough to make a lot of people discredit it as misogynist rantings (which it totally is), but I think it's something to take seriously because I really do think it reflects the wider fandom-wide reactions to women in fandom.

Our culture is a misogynist one, and so any subculture within it, unless it specifically sets out to not be so, is going to be misogynist as well. Fandom certainly is. It's easy to forget that when we surround ourselves with other fic writers (who tend to be women, by a large majority) or staying here on lj, which is more of a safe space for women. But when you venture out, it sometimes smacks you in the face, as it did the other day in that post on whedonesque (which, don't read the whole thing. It got long and, eventually, stupid. I got dragged into arguments I shouldn't have that had nothing to do with anything, and now I'm sad that I did, because I don't think I argued persuasively, and the whole thing was just dumb. Anyways.).

It crops up again and again, abut everything in fandom, but especially about shipping: shipping is something only stupid, irrational women do (or, according to this guy, gay guys). Never mind the fact that this is patently untrue, as the guys who popped up in my post to say, "Um, hi! Straight-guy shipper here!" proved (love y'all!). It's also closely identified with hatred of Mary Sues and the idea of twelve-year-old girls being the lowest forms of human life. (A cultural trope which makes me stabby beyond belief. There are no words for how much that angers me. I love you, twelve-year-old girls of the universe! You are beautiful and wonderful and don't let anyone tell you otherwise!)

Also, I think specifically in the fandoms of the Buffyverse, there's been a lot of past ugliness involving shipping that really did have a profound affect on the larger fandom. Which isn't good, and the last thing I want to see happen is a revival of that sort of thing. But this idea has become so entrenched that shipper=stupid, destructive, etc. in this fandom.

If only the hysterical wimmenz (and gay guys!) would listen to the rational, big strong men, fandom would be pristine and wonderful. There's only one way to view/enjoy/react to a show/movie/book, and that's their way. Never mind the fact that they often have different ways--some privilege good plot construction, others are all about originality, etc.

This belief really is everywhere in fandom, at least as far as I can see.

Gah. I hate this. It makes me angry. And I feel like we need to start calling them out on it. Because I haven't before. That time? Was my first time to say, "No. This is not okay." I need to question this idea that shippers are all irrational and/or immature.

I need to say: "You don't have to care about John and Aeryn as much as I do [yes, yes, I'm watching Farscape for the first time; why do you ask?]: that's okay. But just because I care about them, that doesn't mean my opinion is worthless, and it doesn't mean that your way of watching the show is the only way. And it doesn't mean that women are stupid or irrational or immature or any of the other things that you're suggesting when you make snobby comments about shippers." I need to say that.

Yeah. So. That was much longer than I thought it would be. Any thoughts? Anybody want to tell me what it's like in other fandoms? I seem to remember this sort of thing being prevalent as well in my very first fandom (the only other one where I was really active in a place that wasn't either lj or fanfic sites), but I was young and hadn't really figured out the whole sexism thing. Is this more prevalent in Whedon fandom and is this because of the great Shipper Wars? Anyone?

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But then in an interview he said something about how it was all just "hysterical women on the Internet" and ooh! ARGH. IT MAKES MY TEETH ITCH JUST TO THINK ABOUT IT.

Ugh. Yes. I'm not in Torchwood fandom, so I never felt personally insulted by RTD, but just that sentiment drives me crazy.

And the depressing thing is that I get this feeling that Joss thinks the same of BtVS fandom, although he's never voiced it as such. But the way he treats the ships, dangling them in front of our noses like we're dogs chasing snausages, only to snatch them away at the last minute, just leaves me with this icky feeling that he really doesn't respect us at all.

And the depressing thing is that I get this feeling that Joss thinks the same of BtVS fandom, although he's never voiced it as such. But the way he treats the ships, dangling them in front of our noses like we're dogs chasing snausages, only to snatch them away at the last minute, just leaves me with this icky feeling that he really doesn't respect us at all.

Yeah. I get that feeling as well. Often.

With Joss, I feel like maybe it's less disrespect and more. . .I don't know, a weird mixture of manipulation and pandering. With the former there's the old "let the 'ship be happy and then violently kill someone" plotline, which, I am usually a defender of Joss's character death tendencies because he writes dangerous worlds, but to see it happen in the exact same way every time just feels cheap and weird. And then with the 'pandering' thing I feel like a lot of the time he does what he thinks will sell/what people want to see. You know? Let's have Buffy make out with a girl; let's give her an entire issue of sexytimes with Angel, but God forbid an actual guy/guy relationship be canon instead of just hinted at over and over. (And once again: I say this as somebody who really liked Buffy/Satsu, 'ships B/A, and has only a middling interest in boyslash.)

I am actually in complete agreement with this comment. Yes.

I don't have a problem with him killing off characters--dangerous worlds, indeed--but HE DOES IT THE SAME WAY EVERY TIME.

When I'm sitting there going, "I KNEW IT!" instead of, "NOOOOOO!" there is a problem.

I KNOW, RIGHT? I mean, geez, Joss, there's more ways for a death to cause other characters pain than just "OMG WE WERE SO IN LOVE WE HAD A FUTURE OF FAT BABIES. D:"

*is heartless and cynical*

*but only because he made me that way*

This made me snicker like mad.

I aim to please! *bows*

Did he maybe upset that trope with Echo/Paul? I mean, he killed Paul when they weren't exactly so happy and in love. They were side-by-side warriors who never fully expressed how much they loved each other. And that's why Echo's breakdown is so poignant. (Also 'cause it echoes Spuffy.) But she never ever got to tell him she loved him and he never got to know. So they weren't given their purest moment of happiness to only have it snatched away. Instead, Paul died because of the dangerous world. And in that moment it could have been anyone who died. So maybe the trope there is that he killed the one who would hurt the protagonist the most? But he didn't make them happy only to kill one of them, didn't dangle happyhappy romance to make the death more gutwrenching.

Yeah, definitely agreed on both those points. But I also get the feeling that he sort of resents the shippers for being the dominant force in fandom and tying his hands in some ways - because he is forced to pander to them (the Angel appearance in "Chosen" and Spike's cameos thus far in the comics) and the way S8 is unfolding makes me think he's trying to put the final nail in both the Bangel and Spuffy ships so he can be rid of them. And that does seem rather disrespectful to me. If you don't like them, don't write about them. Have Buffy move on completely. Don't keep poking the shippers with a stick. We will bite.

Oh, and I agree with this, too!

Yes. I really, really want Buffy to be alone at the end of the season. Without having the the ships poked with a stick. Why even bring Angel and Spike into it at all? Just have Buffy be Buffy. *sigh*

I am of the opinion that he will milk the 'ships as long as they stir up the fandom and get comics purchased. I feel like if he disliked them and wanted to put the nail in the coffin, he'd have, like, had Buffy make out with either of them and then had said vamp trip and fall on a shaft of wood sticking out of the ground. :/ Either way is still pretty weak and disrespectful, though.

Blah. I will always be a Joss fan; I just feel that he's stuck in a "tell them what I think they want to hear and then stick a knife in it" rut of storytelling. I miss Buffy being herself and not defined as half of a 'ship.

I feel like if he disliked them and wanted to put the nail in the coffin, he'd have, like, had Buffy make out with either of them and then had said vamp trip and fall on a shaft of wood sticking out of the ground.

Oh, but that would be too simple, lol. To get maximum angst, you have to give them a big destiny sex-filled reunion first (and GOD I hope that doesn't mean a Spuffel threesome is in the next issue) and THEN have them trip and fall on a shaft of wood. :-P

I just feel that he's stuck in a "tell them what I think they want to hear and then stick a knife in it" rut of storytelling. I miss Buffy being herself and not defined as half of a 'ship.

WORD.

BUT OF COURSE WHAT WAS I THINKING. Sexytimes always enhances the subsequent angst.

and GOD I hope that doesn't mean a Spuffel threesome is in the next issue
Well, you know, she had that dream where they were naked and she was dressed like a nurse, so... *g*

Ah yes, because what this fandom desperately needs is another debate over who Buffy loves more based on whether she's drawn leaning more toward Angel or Spike. :-P

I think a lack of respect does come into it, though, because it's all about his "I'm giving you what you need, not what you want" business. We silly wimminz may think we know what's good for us, but we're wrong.

I have some thoughts about shipping

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