I have some thoughts about shipping

[lirazel]

I've been writing this in bits and pieces over the last few days, and I've finally plugged in all the pieces, I think. It's not as thoughtful or well-constructed as I wish it was, but I'm going to throw this out there.

And no, this doesn't really have anything to do with the current flare-ups here in Buffy fandom that seem like they might explode into shipping wars at any moment. This is less an examination of one ship versus another and more a series of thoughts about shippers versus everyone else. Just as a disclaimer. Your ship will not be bashed within, no matter what it is.

I do identify as a shipper. In case you couldn't tell from my ship/quote meme a while back, I tend to get a little invested in romantic relationships in fiction. *ahem*

I also tend to get invested in platonic relationships. Don't get me started about Spike&Dawn or Veronica&Keith or the Doctor&Donna (UNTIL THE END OH DOCTOR I WILL NEVER FORGIVE YOU) or Adelle&Topher or various sitcom gangs (That 70s Show, How I Met Your Mother, COMMUNITY COMMUNITY COMMUNITY)--definitely don't get me started on sibling relationships: I will definitely go on for hours (the Summers girls! The Donnelly boys! The Tams! The Blacks! The Winchesters back before my epic break up with that show! I could go on and on and on!).

I'm a character-watcher. I love good worldbuilding as much as the next person, and I always appreciate a well-plotted story, and I will totally get picky about continuity...but it's characters that make me watch, that get me invested. I don't cry because something happens, I cry because something happens to a character I care about. I'm not filled with joy because of this turn of events, I'm filled with joy because this turn of events happens to a character I care about. As much as I hated Pamela, when it comes right down to it, in the battle between Richardson versus Fielding, I am Team Richardson all the way. CHARACTER FTW.

And a huge part of characters are relationships. Platonic or otherwise, we become different people depending on who we're with (I absolutely know there's a fantastic quote that I love that I should be using here, but I can't remember what it is!). I'm a different person with my mama than I am with the BFF than I am with my boss than I am with a stranger on the street. That's how it is to be human.

Sometimes when I'm watching a show, I really love what a particular relationship reveals about a given character, and so I'm very drawn to that particular relationship. I love the way Spike and Dawn bond over being outsiders, over being pretty immature, and later over their mutual grief, and I also love that she's totally unintimidated by him and that he really likes (and will protect) her for who she is. I love the way that Tommy Donnelly would do anything for his brothers (that show won me over absolutely when Tommy takes off to go kill someone and Kevin got in the elevator with him and Tommy goes, "Where're you going?" And Kevin just looks at him and goes, "Wherever you're going," like it's the most obvious thing in the world. YES). Community is a flail-fest for me, because they keep putting new characters in moments of interaction and it is always awesome and I flail.

But more people tend to be fannish over romantic ships than they do about platonic relationships. Sure, there are quite a lot of Spike&Dawn fans out there, and I recently discovered there are more Angel&Connor fans than I thought there were (yay!), and I don't think anyone who loves Veronica Mars doesn't have a soft-spot for Veronica&Keith. But they don't seem to prompt as many fanworks, as much fic, as many flaily posts or icons or what have you.

Perhaps this is just because fic in general seems skewed towards shipping and away from gen, whether that shipping is het or slash or femmslash or whatever. People like sex. (Even if I'm one of those people who gets bored by all the porn in fandom.) Perhaps, also, this is because so many fics are all about getting the two characters together, which is easier to write about in romantic relationships: there are clear road signs that we all understand--the first kiss, the first "I love you," the first fight, the first time having sex, etc.--that make it simply easier to write fic about.

So fannish cliques (I hesitate to use that word, but I can't think of another) tend to grow up around specific romantic ships, with the gaps often bridged by love of a common character (I'm thinking specifically of the fact that there are a ton of Spuffy fans who get along great with Spangel fans or Spander fans or Spike/anyone-at-all fans--that common love of Spike is enough, especially with a character that's polarizing in the larger fandom). We have loads of fun together because we can be sure that we're watching the similar shows and because we create works our friends want to consume. It's happy times for all! (Well. Most of the time.)

But then there's non-shippers relationships to shippers. This is something I'm running up against a lot lately, and it hasn't been pretty. Because there's a great deal of disdain from non-shippers towards shippers. As though anything a shipper says can be totally disregarded simply because that person is a shipper. This drives me crazy, but I've been seeing it a lot: the belief that if you identify as a shipper at all, anything you say is automatically worth nothing.

This reaction grows out of a false view of shippers, I think, which is that shipping is all we care about. I'm sure there are some shippers whose entire love of a given canon is based around one relationship. I've encountered a few of them, and even though that isn't my thing, I say to each their own and move on. But I really do believe that the majority of shippers aren't there just for the ships. They love many things about the canon, even if they tend to be fannish about ships.

For instance. With Community, I do ship Jeff/Annie because I love the idea of this really snarky, cynical guy finding this overachieving, naive girl irresistible (I ignore the age difference. Yes, I do). But if they don't ever become canon? I don't care. If the show ever shoots them down (which it won't: this show loves flirting with possible pairings it will probably never pursue further, which is one thing that's so hilarious about it), I'd be momentarily sad, but then I'd move on. Because there are so many more things I love about this show. I love Troy&Abed and Abed&Jeff and Jeff&Shirley and Shirley&Annie and Annie&Britta and Britta&Troy, etc, etc, etc. I love Senor Chang and the Dean and the jokes about Glee and the way it skewers college tropes. I love that it's so not ironic and is so fond of its own characters. I love that it's actually funny and--this is key--that the humor arises out of characterization.

I love all of that. That's why I watch. But yeah, I ship, too.

The fact that I do ship absolutely shouldn't mean that any of my opinions about the show are worthless. It shouldn't. But I feel like it often does.

This is annoying enough as it is, because the idea of one thing about you determining everyone's reaction to you is just sad (especiallyespeciallyespecially when it's something as mundane as your reaction to a television show). But there's something that takes it past being aggravating and right into being just plain ugly:

It's gendered.

If you don't believe me, see this post. ruuger pointed out in the comments that it's almost always gendered, which was something I hadn't gotten all riled up about, because it hadn't been that blatant to me, but I am now.

Does anybody remember this article (which I'm not linking directly to because I don't want to give them more page hits--I have no idea about this blog I'm linking to, but it's got to be better than this MRA group) about women "ruining" sci-fi? It was written by a Men's Rights group, which is enough to make a lot of people discredit it as misogynist rantings (which it totally is), but I think it's something to take seriously because I really do think it reflects the wider fandom-wide reactions to women in fandom.

Our culture is a misogynist one, and so any subculture within it, unless it specifically sets out to not be so, is going to be misogynist as well. Fandom certainly is. It's easy to forget that when we surround ourselves with other fic writers (who tend to be women, by a large majority) or staying here on lj, which is more of a safe space for women. But when you venture out, it sometimes smacks you in the face, as it did the other day in that post on whedonesque (which, don't read the whole thing. It got long and, eventually, stupid. I got dragged into arguments I shouldn't have that had nothing to do with anything, and now I'm sad that I did, because I don't think I argued persuasively, and the whole thing was just dumb. Anyways.).

It crops up again and again, abut everything in fandom, but especially about shipping: shipping is something only stupid, irrational women do (or, according to this guy, gay guys). Never mind the fact that this is patently untrue, as the guys who popped up in my post to say, "Um, hi! Straight-guy shipper here!" proved (love y'all!). It's also closely identified with hatred of Mary Sues and the idea of twelve-year-old girls being the lowest forms of human life. (A cultural trope which makes me stabby beyond belief. There are no words for how much that angers me. I love you, twelve-year-old girls of the universe! You are beautiful and wonderful and don't let anyone tell you otherwise!)

Also, I think specifically in the fandoms of the Buffyverse, there's been a lot of past ugliness involving shipping that really did have a profound affect on the larger fandom. Which isn't good, and the last thing I want to see happen is a revival of that sort of thing. But this idea has become so entrenched that shipper=stupid, destructive, etc. in this fandom.

If only the hysterical wimmenz (and gay guys!) would listen to the rational, big strong men, fandom would be pristine and wonderful. There's only one way to view/enjoy/react to a show/movie/book, and that's their way. Never mind the fact that they often have different ways--some privilege good plot construction, others are all about originality, etc.

This belief really is everywhere in fandom, at least as far as I can see.

Gah. I hate this. It makes me angry. And I feel like we need to start calling them out on it. Because I haven't before. That time? Was my first time to say, "No. This is not okay." I need to question this idea that shippers are all irrational and/or immature.

I need to say: "You don't have to care about John and Aeryn as much as I do [yes, yes, I'm watching Farscape for the first time; why do you ask?]: that's okay. But just because I care about them, that doesn't mean my opinion is worthless, and it doesn't mean that your way of watching the show is the only way. And it doesn't mean that women are stupid or irrational or immature or any of the other things that you're suggesting when you make snobby comments about shippers." I need to say that.

Yeah. So. That was much longer than I thought it would be. Any thoughts? Anybody want to tell me what it's like in other fandoms? I seem to remember this sort of thing being prevalent as well in my very first fandom (the only other one where I was really active in a place that wasn't either lj or fanfic sites), but I was young and hadn't really figured out the whole sexism thing. Is this more prevalent in Whedon fandom and is this because of the great Shipper Wars? Anyone?

Comments

[shamoogity.livejournal.com]

*Slow clap* Yes! I especially relate to this:

Sometimes when I'm watching a show, I really love what a particular relationship reveals about a given character, and so I'm very drawn to that particular relationship.

That's definitely where shipping comes from for me and I don't see how that is some sort of inferior form of enjoyment. Do I understand people whose whole enjoyment of Battlestar revolves around the various models of spaceship? Not really, but I would never say that's not what they're supposed to be getting out of the show.

I definitely have this argument with my boyfriend fairly often, because we tend to enjoy the same shows, but come at them from different angles. And I do feel like he is often dismissive of shipping, and also of things like fanfic and fanvids. Whereas I think obviously any segment of fandom will have its crazies, but there is so much quality work and discussion out there too.

I do think shipping can be polarizing if people aren't mature about it. But it doesn't have to be! Maybe I just think this because I tend to see the potential in a lot of ships that aren't necessarily OTP. I think the best writing lends itself to the most ships eg. BtVS or Community.

Anyway, that was kind of a hodgepodge of thoughts, but to sum up: Well said.

[penny-lane-42.livejournal.com]

That's definitely where shipping comes from for me and I don't see how that is some sort of inferior form of enjoyment. Do I understand people whose whole enjoyment of Battlestar revolves around the various models of spaceship? Not really, but I would never say that's not what they're supposed to be getting out of the show.

Exactly.

I may be overreaching here, but perhaps part of the reason your boyfriend feels that way is the cultural idea that romance (and fanfic, and vidding) is for women, and that anything for women is lesser. It's hard to battle that sort of cultural brainwashing.

Whereas I think obviously any segment of fandom will have its crazies, but there is so much quality work and discussion out there too.
YES.

Absolutely it can be polarizing, but no, it doesn't have to be! I want to read back through my "Thoughts on why B/A won't work" post to make sure it didn't come across as defensive or combative, because I really wrote it in about fifteen minutes just to be silly. And I mean, I was serious about some of the reasons I didn't see them as working, but I don't want to come across--ever--as judgmental towards people who like them, because they're probably just looking for completely different things in a (fictional) relationship than I am AND THAT'S OKAY. Just to use that as an example.

Thank you! Glad you enjoyed it! And the post was a hodgepodge of thoughts, too, so the comment goes well with it.

*pulls out Mal/Inara icon*

[next_to_normal]

love the way that Tommy Donnelly would do anything for his brothers (that show won me over absolutely when Tommy takes off to go kill someone and Kevin got in the elevator with him and Tommy goes, "Where're you going?" And Kevin just looks at him and goes, "Wherever you're going," like it's the most obvious thing in the world. YES).

OMG YOU'RE A BLACK DONNELLYS FAN WHY DID I NOT KNOW THAT?

As though anything a shipper says can be totally disregarded simply because that person is a shipper. This drives me crazy, but I've been seeing it a lot: the belief that if you identify as a shipper at all, anything you say is automatically worth nothing.

This drives me SO FAR up the wall. Although it's not just limited to non-shippers. I find that other shippers will dismiss you if you ship a different ship than theirs (especially if they are "warring ships" like Bangel and Spuffy). And the hypocrisy just baffles me, because it's like, I'm apparently incapable of thinking beyond my ship, but you, who are equally shippy, are totally rational and unbiased?

But yeah, I hear you on the gender bias thing. In my first fandom, Sliders, the women actually left the main message board and started their own board, because we were annoying the manly, rational men with our silly romantic fanfics when they wanted to talk about their SRS BSNS theories* (on Sliders! For reals, that show is 70% crack, and the science is 90% made up. Which makes your theory of parallel universes 110% bullshit). So we played happily in our fanfic playground - and a few guys came over to join us - and the main board was saved from the inane twaddle of silly wimminz.

*The funny thing is, the fandom at large basically had the equivalent of a shipper war, but it was fought over theories of parallel universes (god we are such dorks), where two (male) fans postulated their own contradicting theories, and the rest of fandom lined up behind the two of them and fought it out. It got pretty heated and people got banned. But then we had a war over berets, which was also gendered, but much more fun.

[penny-lane-42.livejournal.com]

HAHAHA. Because I don't talk about it much? I actually wrote a piece of BD fic! It's on my fic list! I wrote it a while ago, so I don't know if it's any good, but that show hit a lot of my kinks. Also, I once wrote a Buffy/Tommy ficlet. Trufax.

Although it's not just limited to non-shippers. I find that other shippers will dismiss you if you ship a different ship than theirs (especially if they are "warring ships" like Bangel and Spuffy). And the hypocrisy just baffles me, because it's like, I'm apparently incapable of thinking beyond my ship, but you, who are equally shippy, are totally rational and unbiased?

YES. OH YES. I see this a lot in people dismissing Spuffy fans as rape apologists (I'm sorry: have you met me? Or Gabs? Seriously? Feminism is what we do), which is just so hurtful. I'm sure it goes the other way, too, but that's the way I've seen it, and it's both ridiculous and infuriating.

Yeah, I feel like that sort of gender split ends up happening a lot. *sigh*


*The funny thing is, the fandom at large basically had the equivalent of a shipper war, but it was fought over theories of parallel universes (god we are such dorks), where two (male) fans postulated their own contradicting theories, and the rest of fandom lined up behind the two of them and fought it out. It got pretty heated and people got banned. YES YES YES. They are just as capable of being irrational and destructive! Just because it isn't over romance doesn't mean a damn thing! And I love that you brought up that all the science was made up. That makes it even better!

But then we had a war over berets, which was also gendered, but much more fun. I love this lots!

[madcap-shiny.livejournal.com]

I love this post so hard.

I remember when the Children of Earth miniseries for Torchwood came out, and while I won't spoil you (because as you know I ardently believe you should see it!), a particular ship-related plot twist happened that INFURIATED most of fandom, and I won't lie, it really brought out a lot of the batshit crazy, to the point where RTD was getting death threats. And I don't blame him for being cranky about it. But then in an interview he said something about how it was all just "hysterical women on the Internet" and ooh! ARGH. IT MAKES MY TEETH ITCH JUST TO THINK ABOUT IT. It's just one way I've seen even showrunners attach the explanation of hysterical wimmenz to insane, irrational fan behavior. And, you know, they were also 'shippers, which explains everything. And I just feel so conflicted about it, because on the one hand: death threats. But on the other: OH NO HE DID NOT JUST SAY THAT.

And I don't know. It's just a particular example to me that's especially frustrating, because it's from someone whose stories I like to hear. The "'shippers (meaning women and gay men) are ruining scifi" thing makes my blood boil still, but at least at the end of the day I can just dismiss it as asshattery I shouldn't listen to. But hearing that from an actual writer who I usually support when everybody else flips out at him? I hate it. I hate it a lot. And knowing that it's not just RTD or some crappy misogynistic "men's rights" group, that it's such a general thing, is upsetting and troubling and angering and NYAR.

Ugh.

I just wish we could all be in the same playground and not push each other off the swings. OMG WHY IS THAT SO MUCH TO ASK.

[deird1]

But then in an interview he said something about how it was all just "hysterical women on the Internet"

That made me want to SHOOT him. I think I was angry for almost a fortnight over that interview...



Awesome post, Lauren.

[gabrielleabelle.livejournal.com]

You know, ever since your post about the douchebag over at Whedonesque, I've been wanting to say something on this topic. But my thoughts hadn't settled and I didn't have anything formed.

So yay! You beat me to it! Word. *nods*

It's very frustrating to be dismissed off-hand by non-shippers (and, as Eowyn points out, by Bangel shippers) just because I happen to think Buffy and Spike are awesome cool. I mean...sheesh, that's not the only thing I like in the show. That's just one of my preferences. Among many.

But yes, the devaluation of romance, of liking romance while still being intelligent and forming logical arguments, etc etc. Makes me rage-y.

[penny-lane-42.livejournal.com]

Yay! You do it for me all the time, so I'm pleased to return the favor!

Exactly. And preferences about something like this definitely shouldn't undermine your worth as a fan.

But yes, the devaluation of romance, of liking romance while still being intelligent and forming logical arguments, etc etc. Makes me rage-y. It's so infuriating.

[anythingbutgrey.livejournal.com]

dear god yes. i'm just sitting here nodding along. i said this in angela_weber's journal last week and i'll repeat it here, though i was talking about lost and that fandom's anti-shippy... ness:

here's what people don't get about shipping, or at least about me and shipping. it is not simply limited to the fact that i love love and have always been fascinated by it even back when i thought it didn't exist. but the fact is - and this applies to all shows but particularly to lost in this context - the ships and love that characters have for each other is telling about the characters themselves and about the drive of the plot. i remember i was re-watching battlestar galactica and suddenly realized that at the end of the day, the thing that drove the story was not the robots or the Mythological Structure but love. from day one. it was about who loved who and why and what they were willing to do or give or sacrifice for that. it has always been that way. and that's what made it such a strong show, that the show said, yes, this is about robots and space and people killing each other, but it's very HUMAN and humans fall in love, sometimes when they shouldn't.

which, yeah. true story. when do we learn more about a CHARACTER than what they do when they're in love with someone? or, as i said in that same conversation, that's the way humans work, isn't it? isn't that how we do things? going from point a to g and hoping along the way someone will love us as much as we love them?

true life: i'm a shipper and i fucking love it.

also what there is going to be a fail war in the buffyverse fandom? YE GADS glad i ship the one no one likes so i can just ignore everyone else. ahhh.

[penny-lane-42.livejournal.com]

Hahaha! Gif-win!

I like to make you nod! :D

[eta] the ships and love that characters have for each other is telling about the characters themselves and about the drive of the plot. YES!

when do we learn more about a CHARACTER than what they do when they're in love with someone? or, as i said in that same conversation, that's the way humans work, isn't it? isn't that how we do things? going from point a to g and hoping along the way someone will love us as much as we love them?
OH YES YES YES.

I'm so glad that you're as unabashed about your shipping as I am. Shipping is awesome.

Yeah, there are rumbles. I think the whole thing is going to explode, and I'm kind of petrified about it. I'm doing my best to stay far away from it. *sigh*

YOU WIN. Yes, that's what I've decided: BUFFY/RILEY FANS WIN. Because y'all aren't going to be involved in the stupid!

Also, because of the pretty, pretty icon!

[http://users.livejournal.com/_jems_/]

I'm always so happy that fandom on LJ is female dominated because it means that even though we're not completely rid of the ridiculous mentality that 'shippers are lesser fans, at least non-'shippers usually think before they type up that comment. My experience from venturing elsewhere has shown me that that's not usually the case, so I tend to stick pretty close to home.

Platonic or otherwise, we become different people depending on who we're with
This right here? The entire reason I quit watching Supernatural after a season and change. The fact that it hadn't even occurred to the creator that it might behoove them to write some, at the very least, recurring female characters made me furious. Oh no, please disregard a whole gender, I'll keep watching anyway, the abs alone are worth it... *eyeroll* As if!

[anythingbutgrey.livejournal.com]

Hi, let's talk about Supernatural, because WORD but I just stopped watching after they killed off the last female characters standing. this weekend (I CAN'T BELIEVE THIS IS A TRUE STORY BUT IT IS TRUE) this girl was driving me back from work and she was all "you're a women's studies major, what are your thoughts on supernatural!" now, we had had this conversation about five months ago, but she didn't remember that, but i did because i was full of rawr!type rage. and i pointed out to her that i like strong female characters(™) and the show lacked them and then they killed off jo and we were done. and she was just like "WELL THERE'S JUST NO SPACE FOR WOMEN IN THE SHOW"

and basically i was caught up in a mix of



and



in a way that can only truly be explained by gifs.

/rant tyfyt. the supernatural fandom is horrid.

[eilowyn.livejournal.com]

I WAS THINKING ABOUT DOING THE SAME META!!! We are in serious mind meld mode these days, I swear it! That meta (that I'm far too lazy to actually write - thank you so much for doing it for me!) arose because as the Ship War Alarm rises, people begin to discount anything very smart people say because of their ship affiliation. It was getting really obnoxious on the boards, where any possible objection to the comics was completely discounted because the person raising the objection was a silly, bitter Bander or Spuffy. People were doing close reading of the comics (something I can't do - I can't look at the comics too closely or I'll begin sporking my eyes), analyzing them with the knowledge of comic book tropes and the tendencies of Joss Whedon, the creator (and yes, the guy's got a bit of an M.O.), and really examining what was happening beyond the Bangel sexxorz - heavy, literary analysis stuff - and being completely and irrevocably ignored because of their alleged bias.

Yeah, we all have our ship goggles that we like to put on. I've recently discovered I'm blind as a bat when it comes to slash, but have become friends with diehard Spangels and Spanders because of a love of Spike (I've been PM'ing a Spred recently, and our love fest and mutual support is at the point where we could break into a chorus of "We Are The World" at any moment). This is the point you make that I've been noticing most in the recent flair up - the bad behavior and gloating of a certain faction unites the other factions - not necessarily against the first faction, but in mutual support of each other in spite of the other faction.

However, when ship affiliations lead to someone completely discounting what someone else says that is in no way ship related - that's when it enters the land of not cool.

[penny-lane-42.livejournal.com]

OH YAY I'M SO GLAD!

YES. Your reading of the situation is so true and insightful. I feel like you could write a really awesome post about this same topic but specific to what's going on in BtVS fandom right now. I would love you forever. Because this needs to be said.

Nobody thinks about the comics more or more thoughtfully than Emmie. And now her opinions are getting disregarded because she happens to like Buffy with Spike. THIS IS NOT COOL.

Yeah, I've got no slash goggles, either, but there are some awfully cool Spangels out there (I don't have as much interaction with Spanders because, seriously, that is one pairing that I will never, ever, ever, ever, ever get). And I feel like there's BtVS fandom and then there's Spike fandom inside of that, and then Spike fandom splinters off into various shipping fandoms involving Spike, but we all kind of have each others' backs, you know? Because we love him when so many people don't.

[author-by-night.livejournal.com]

For instance. With Community, I do ship Jeff/Annie because I love the idea of this really snarky, cynical guy finding this overachieving, naive girl irresistible (

I think they're both the reverse in some ways too. There's a naive side to Jeff, thinking that faking a study group was going to work with someone who was already clearly not that into him, and having been addicted to pills has to make you a tad cynical. So I think they'd work. And yeah, there's an age difference, but I think Annie's a lot less immature than she seems. Plus, Jeff seems to be more protective of Annie than even Britta, who he's supposed to have a crush on.

I love Troy&Abed

Who doesn't? :D But yes, I agree... in fact, I'd argue that the show doesn't even need to have romantic pairings. They've made the whole idea of tension and half truths and "how into me is (s)he really?!" questions work without it.


Perhaps this is just because fic in general seems skewed towards shipping and away from gen, whether that shipping is het or slash or femmslash or whatever. People like sex. (Even if I'm one of those people who gets bored by all the porn in fandom.) Perhaps, also, this is because so many fics are all about getting the two characters together, which is easier to write about in romantic relationships: there are clear road signs that we all understand--the first kiss, the first "I love you," the first fight, the first time having sex, etc.--that make it simply easier to write fic about.

See, I think that's the problem. People are baffled by the idea of there not being sex related storylines. Which is sad, because while yes, it's true that sex sells... people aren't stupid. They can understand things beyond that. They can also write things beyond that.

I'm very much big on gen relationships. Actually, most of my favorite Jossverse relationships are platonic. Willow, Xander and Buffy; Inara and Kaylee; River and Simon; Echo and Priya; Dawn and Tara.

As far as sexism goes, I think there is some in terms of female relationships. I was at the movies today and it occurred to me that a lot of times, the female friends of the heroine are fickle, ditzy, mean, and/or ugly comic relief. It's weird.

[anythingbutgrey.livejournal.com]

As far as sexism goes, I think there is some in terms of female relationships. I was at the movies today and it occurred to me that a lot of times, the female friends of the heroine are fickle, ditzy, mean, and/or ugly comic relief. It's weird.

have you heard about the bechdel test? words to live by.

[snickfic]

You are very smart.

That is all.

[penny-lane-42.livejournal.com]

That means a ton to me coming from you!

Pretty icon!

[ladyofthelog.livejournal.com]

I freaking love this post. You rock so hard.

Do you follow Smart Bitches, Trashy Books at all? Before I got back into fandom last May, I was all about the romance novel - that's what I devoured most voraciously throughout college, and I am unashamed to admit it. I mention this because romance readers and writers are subject to the same kind of blatantly sexist criticism and harassment, and SBTB has some really good posts on/responses to that. This isn't just a fandom thing. It's a widespread response to gendered spaces and writing.

And it's stupid.

[I edited this comment to remove enjoyable but unnecessary boy squee.]

[penny-lane-42.livejournal.com]

Thank you! I also think you rock!

I have been on their site! They're awesome! I actually discovered them when they broke a scandal about plagiarism and it was reported on fandom_wank. It was pretty glorious.

But yes. I've read some really interesting, insightful, awesome essays on how romance novels can be a good thing for women--freeing and important. I love it.

I mention this because romance readers and writers are subject to the same kind of blatantly sexist criticism and harassment, and SBTB has some really good posts on/responses to that. This isn't just a fandom thing. It's a widespread response to gendered spaces and writing. Absolutely.

I read your boy squee and enjoyed it, even if I don't see where he's getting his ship from either. ;D

Sorry if this got a bit off topic; you got me thinking!

[that-september.livejournal.com]

Oh, goodness. As you mentioned the other day, we are fandom soulmates.

I'm like you: I watch a show for the characters. What drives me to stay invested in these shows is never because of a plot twist or even a specific universe (though of course, those things are factors) but for the people I've grown to love. Shows that aren't as focused on characters--House would be a prime example, in my opinion--do not move me nearly as much. That's why I identify as a shipper, because there's something about seeing two people make a meaningful connection that moves me. I'm a romantic. I love love stories, especially well-told love stories.

But, as you mentioned, I also love platonic relationships. I love individual characters, their relationships with someone else aside. My opinions of a show should not be colored by the fact that I ship.

I haven't really encountered a lot of this negativity you've been experiencing, mostly because I have not strayed far from the safe haven that is LJ. Obviously, there can be jackasses here as well, but I'm usually in a shipper-friendly environment when I encounter them. It's startling to me that people actually condescend to shippers that way, though I don't know why it would be.

My boyfriend, who watches a lot of the same shows as me but has no interest in fandom, was recently arguing with me about why I write fanfic. To him, it's such a strange, pointless concept. He's a writer, too, so to him, wasting time writing anything that can't be published is utterly foreign. We were actually just arguing about it today, when I told him I was writing fic for the Big Bang Theory about Sheldon and Penny, and he just didn't get it. It's like...so impossible for me to explain to him what fic is to me, and why it's important, and how it further enhances my love of a show. Shipping people I believe have chemistry enhances it, too. That doesn't make me a silly woman who can't possibly offer up any worthwhile opinions--just a shipper, and proud of it.

Re: Sorry if this got a bit off topic; you got me thinking!

[penny-lane-42.livejournal.com]

Yay for rambling!

Yes. That's why I don't like procedurals very much--on those, character is always back seat to plot. My mama can watch Law and Order for hours on end, and I do NOT understand. What's the appeal? I don't know.

It's a larger cultural thing, I'm sure. We're taught that romance is just for women, that being invested in it is stupid. So it shouldn't be a surprise when that attitude comes out in fandom--though it always does shock me. *sigh*

I think a lot of people outside of fandom don't understand the fic writing thing. But people don't write fic for any other reason than love of the characters. That's it. So our compensation is in sharing stories with people who also care about those characters. We don't need to get paid.

Shipping people I believe have chemistry enhances it, too. That doesn't make me a silly woman who can't possibly offer up any worthwhile opinions--just a shipper, and proud of it.

Exactly!

*loves this*

[dee81.livejournal.com]

This was a really interesting read. A few points about the shows before getting into the center of what you wrote:

*The Black Donnelys - that was a great show. I was sad when it ended because I think it could have been something big.

*I'm a big Connor and Dawn fan. I think those are two characters that had an enormous amount of potential as well. They were just thrown into stupid storylines (the Cordelia affair for starters). I'm still annoyed we never saw the two meet in some crossover event.

*Supernatural - If you don't mind me asking, how come you broke up with the Winchester boys?

In regards to what you posted about shipping...you were right about a lot of things. I relate to what you said about the characters...that's what holds me to a show. And if there is a love story amongst those characters, or the potential to be one...than I end up loving the show even more. It doesn't mean it's all I invest in...but what's wrong with seeing something beautiful and romantic between two characters? Nothing!! Unfortunately, some people in fandoms dont feel that way at all.

I used to be involved in the fandom for the show Third Watch. And there were two characters Bosco and Faith who many people wanted to see together, and many people who didn't. And man...those were some ugly shipper wars. It got to the point where other people's opinions just started sounding completely insane because they were always on full defense mode that their personal views would get attacked. It's a TV show...no need for nastiness!

Now for the BtVS fandom, I've been seeing posts like "The Angel and Buffy shippers have won. Ha ha, suckers, and blah blah blah." Seriously? How old are we? You guys won...that's um great? What were you fighting against? If Spike and Buffy decide to have magic sex in the next comic...awesome! But you won't see me posting death threats to Angel or to the people out there who support Angel/Buffy.

In regards to the sexism...me and my guy friends share a lot of the same shows. And I'm usually the only one who is emotionally invested in the romance part of the story. (Shows like Farscape and The Office for instance. I'll go on about John and Aeryn being my favorite TV couple of all time, and my guy friends would be talking about John's kicking ass skills). But it doesnt mean that a straight guy doesn't love a TV couple. And it's really insulting when shippers are grouped as emotional lonely women, or blah blah. Just stop talking and let us enjoy the show and ships, mmkay?

[penny-lane-42.livejournal.com]

The Black Donnellys was an entire show about sibling relationships. There was no way I wasn't going to love it. But I guess there weren't enough people watching it.... *sigh*

I have always wanted to see a really in-depth Dawn/Connor (or Dawn&Connor) fic, because they have so much in common and could be so awesome together.

Supernatural had a long, long history of misogyny: no real important female characters, an endless stream of beautiful actresses play one-episode victims who were subject to sexualized violence, etc. I'd been uncomfortable with it for a long time--it got to the opint where I felt like if one more character said the word "bitch" in that horrible, hate-filled voice like it was the worst insult ever, I was going to hunt down Kripke and destroy him myself. *sigh* But the final straw for me was when they killed of Jo and Ellen for no good reason. It's like they were actively trying to create a male-only space, and I couldn't handle it.

It's a TV show...no need for nastiness! Exactly!

But it doesnt mean that a straight guy doesn't love a TV couple. And it's really insulting when shippers are grouped as emotional lonely women, or blah blah. Just stop talking and let us enjoy the show and ships, mmkay?

Yup!

[green-maia.livejournal.com]

YES.

[penny-lane-42.livejournal.com]

:D

[ohwaluvusbab.livejournal.com]

there are more Angel&Connor fans than I thought there were

*raises hand* HELL yes. I still want to murder Scott Allie for saying that Buffy is more important to Angel than Connor. I will never not be furious about that.

I weird myself out so much. I don't identify as a romantic at all. I sometimes avoid getting into relationships IRL. But I LOVE shipping. LOVE it. Since before I knew what it was. It's crazy. And I've gotta conclude it's because of my all-consuming love of character above all.

About the disdain of non-shippers: See, I think those people are just too disillusioned from witnessing actual shipper wars that have ruined their enjoyment of shows or something. It's like they've gotta step in and shoot down all shippers before another one starts. That's my theory.

[ohwaluvusbab.livejournal.com]

Also, about the Supernatural thing. (Btw, I haven't actually seen the episode where Jo dies yet. And I have no idea what Kripke and co. actually intend. My opinion is liable to change.) I can't comment on the misogyny in the creation of the show. However - and don't kill me here - I think the anti-feminism makes complete sense from within the story. I think shadowkat wrote about this once? She stressed that the show is from the Winchester brothers' (particularly Dean's) POV. (The significance of POV shouldn't be underestimated - it also explains Angel's gender!fail.)
So, SPN's creators made a creative decision to have their two lead protagonists be male brothers. Nothing wrong with that so far. Where problems start happening is the fact that Sam and Dean (well, mostly Dean) are two guys who, at very young ages, witnessed their mother - the most important female figure in their lives - be horrifically murdered in their own home by a male demon. From a story perspective, it makes complete sense that they would be tormented by this for the rest of their lives. The fact that they failed to save their mother props up (unspoken) every time a female stranger is brutally killed by evil forces (Sam's girlfriend Jessica included). It informs a lot of who Dean is - a person who actively avoids meaningful relationships with females, and often objectifies them in one-night stands. I think many would agree that someone like Dean would have been far better off growing up with a mother, as opposed to just the (also traumatised) father that drilled in him masculine ideals and emotional repression. Through Sam and Dean's eyes, women are people they can't risk forming genuine connections with - the psychological trauma is too great. (I'm sort of reminded of Spike's issues with women, stemming from having to stake his own mother. And yes, there are some viewers who see Spike as a misogynist. Obviously I disagree. Spike is traumatised, much like Sam and Dean are.) Best outcome - the story ends with them actually overcoming their trauma and a strong female character actually survives the apocalypse.

Now, again, IDK if this is an aspect of the story that's intentional, but as I make a point of ignoring authorial intention in favour of the actual story anyway, I'm perfectly happy to ignore whatever fail Kripke may or may not be spouting. IDK if this makes me a bad feminist or not, but I'd hate to give up a show I actually love the other 90% of the time.

And wow, sorry about spamming your comments with that ramble. Hopefully I haven't pissed anyone off.

[jamalov29.livejournal.com]

Great and insightful post.
the belief that if you identify as a shipper at all, anything you say is automatically worth nothing. Indeed I felt it often over the years, as if being a (passionate ) spuffy shipper made me less worth listening to.Even if people were always polite , it happened that I just 'knew' that my arguments were dismissed as unimportant because of my beliefs.

[lynnenne]

I love you, twelve-year-old girls of the universe! You are beautiful and wonderful and don't let anyone tell you otherwise!

WORD.

[angearia.livejournal.com]

YES. I've been fighting this battle on Buffy Forums. Because everyone tries to discount my opinion as "oh she's just being a shipper, what's worse is she's being a Spuffy shipper, so her opinion is biased and invalid."

OH DON'T EVEN TRY. I WILL PWN U WITH MY WORDS, MORTAL.

You are sooooo right!

[sarahlovesa.livejournal.com]

Arghhh! I was about to go home, with a stop on the way for chocolate, when I thought I would take a quick look at your latest posting. Shouldn't have done it as now I have to answer. I completely agree with you about so much of what you said and could comment on every line but I will try to restrain myself! I am not very experienced in the fandom world, having only just dipped my toes into that pond, so a lot of what I read goes over my head (especially the jargon!) But I have noticed a few things.

What I really do not understand and what I find surprising is how ANGRY and nasty some people get over other people's choices/likes/dislikes/preferences/whatever you want to call them. Fiction, books, tv, movies, whatever, is one of the GREATEST inventions of humankind. As someone with a very active imagination who lives in her brain, I love, love, love the worlds other brilliantly creative people have opened up for me. I do get obsessed with certain of these worlds and, like you, characters are what I really relate to and care about
.
....it's characters that make me watch, that get me invested. I don't cry because something happens, I cry because something happens to a character I care about. I'm not filled with joy because of this turn of events, I'm filled with joy because this turn of events happens to a character I care about.'

That is me, exactly. At Christmas I had to leave the room halfway through the last episode featuring the 10th Doctor because I just could not BEAR to see him die. My family laughed but kindly as they know how certain characters live in my heart and mind. But I am not a 12 year old girl - I am a sensible middle aged person with a very responsible job who knows the difference between fiction and reality - but still I CARE about these people. Not only that, these characters and the relationships between them have enriched my life so much.


I do not care at all if anyone else loves the same people or ships that I do. They are mine to love, but I adore talking and arguing about them with others. Spuffy and Spangel are not real and can never actually happen, so why be horrible to someone who disagrees with you? Spuffy is very real in my inner universe but I don't mind in the least if others don't get that particular ship.

And I also do not get the whole gender bias thing. People of both sexes heavily invest in what could seem to be meaningless things to others. Have you read 'Fever Pitch' which covers that idea brilliantly? We all have likes/dislikes that others do not share so why post nasty comments and act like it is somehow spoiling a show or a movie if others see it in a different way? Being a shipper is just one way of approaching something - and what is wrong with that? If I watch Buffy for the character dynamics and someone else watches it for the monsters, so what? We all get what we need from it and why waste time worrying that other people don't share the same view?

Oh God, this is far too long, but it is a bit off putting to a newcomer when you read some twit berating others for not being the same as them!! So long live shipping or any of the other ways we can enjoy fictional worlds!

[mollivanders.livejournal.com]

So I love you for posting this. I have something similar in mind, esp. with respect to finishing the first season of Buffy. Yeah :)

I'd like to point out these "big strong rational men" are FANBOYS. OH MY GOD. Who are they to lord over who they perceive as the weaker elements of fandom because they don't care about romantic elements as much? Not that romantic elements are a part of real life relationships and development at all, no, we're just delusional 12 year old girls. God.

That said. I agree with you wholeheartedly on the shipping/character appreciation thread because while I can be a mad mad shipper at times, what I care about are the characters and their development. This might stem from seeing how much shipper hate can lead to hate of a fandom, or how maybe because I tend to ship canon things, or maybe because I just like seeing how characters develop and grow. A great example of this is Harry Potter - as much as I loved watching Ron and Hermione develop, I cared far more about Harry's development, his relationship with Sirius, Remus's development, Luna's defiance, Neville's brilliant storyline - shipping is just one piece of the puzzle for me. It reveals things and it's something I can become very very girly about, but at the end of the day, it's not the whole story.

Interestingly enough, I don't ship very strongly for either Firefly or Community, maybe because the individual characters there are so multi-faceted they don't need to have a romantic storyline to tell theirs. That lack of a storyline is telling but I will always love Mal, no matter what his relationship with Inara is. As long as he always sticks by Serenity, it's okay :)

But seriously. Somebody needs to tell these fanboys to get off their high horse and come play like nice children again *rolls eyes*

[silverusagi]

I just cannot keep up with all the recent conversations that the comics have produced. By the time I read them (only a day later!) the entire conversation has already happened, LOL. But great post! I also get annoyed with the fact that if you ship something, you're seen by some people as a crazy person who only likes that one pairing and disregards the rest of the show or can't appreciate anything not relating to that pairing. Which is just not true.

[gillo]

the idea of twelve-year-old girls being the lowest forms of human life. (A cultural trope which makes me stabby beyond belief. There are no words for how much that angers me. I love you, twelve-year-old girls of the universe! You are beautiful and wonderful and don't let anyone tell you otherwise!)

I've spent most of the last 32 years interacting with twelve-year-old girls. And I know exactly where this come from. Twelve-year-old girls are at least two years older than twelve-year-old boys. They are lively, sparky pro-active, love learning, reading, taking charge. And the boys aren't even taller than them yet. So they huddle together, playing games in which they roll around on the floor, pretending to punch each other, and use "girl" as a term of abuse, because they can't cope with the fact that the girls are outstripping them.

And at twelve the girls mostly couldn't care less. They are strong, the world is theirs to take, and they have their female friends - it's even socially acceptable to hug them, which it isn't for boys. (Because "gay" is an even worse insult than "girl" at that age, and so few of them have any idea what sexual attraction is that they accept it as a neutral word. (Until this English teacher rants at them, anyway.))

Within two years the dynamic has changed completely, at least in mixed schools. Testosterone and oestrogen have started to wreak their damage, the self-confidence of the girls has taken a huge dip, and more and more depends on being seen to be attractive to the previously-despised boys - or, ideally, those a year or two older, because that maturity gap is still there. And the boys know that, deep inside, and use it in their dominance games.

And a lot of boys never mature beyond that. "Girly"="desperate to impress males" and feeble and sentimental. Thank heavens the best sort of men develop beyond that, but I fear the majority don't.

In the end "girly" represents everything that sort of male fears and thus must deride. And so it enters into these ridiculous pissing contests.

I did read all 386 posts on the Whedonesque thread, and I was impressed by the stance you took there and the fact that some decent men supported you. And the jerk who started the whole thing by suggesting that being an adult, heterosexual male made him sentiment and ship-proof deserves way worse than staking or stabbing. Honey and soldier ants should perhaps be involved.

Long and rambly (sorry.)

[lyra500.livejournal.com]

I was lurking but I just have to stop for a moment and tell you how much I love this!

[velvetwhip.livejournal.com]

Much of what I wish to say has been said eloquently and effectively by those who have commented before me, but I wish to add my voice to the general chorus of "Amen!" as I am among those shippers who feel patronized and slighted simply because my appreciation of a couple or couples is part of my fondness for some fandoms. I think being a fan of UC couples makes it even worse in some ways.

Thanks for standing up for the shippers!


Gabrielle

[cozzybob.livejournal.com]

Oh god, I ditto this so hard. All of this. I got here by su_herald, hope you don't mind... but seriously, I ditto this. My first (and main fandom, for years) has been an anime called Gundam Wing, and dear god, if you've ever been in an anime fandom, trust me--the misogyny is even worse there. To the point where even other women bash other women, relentlessly and without pause.

Anyway, I started in Gundam-verse by shipping minor characters, and shipping only characters, because I couldn't pick one single OTP to stick to. And that's hard, you know, because even though you sometimes write popular pairings or a popular character, you don't always, and getting attention to your side of the fence is difficult. I mean, I know there's more to life than getting comments on fanfic, but when you write fanfic, you usually want feedback, eh? And when you stick to the areas of a fandom that aren't so popular (such as non-platonic relationships, which, OMG LOVE!!), finding that niche of friends you can count on for feedback and vice versa is hard.

And worse, as said, there's the bashing, which is incredibly low on all accounts. Most of the time, the women don't even merit it for any reason other than "being in the way" of the man slash piles the girls want to see. Ugh!

And FARSCAPE!! OMG, YOU'RE SERIOUSLY WATCHING FARSCAPE FOR THE FIRST TIME?!! WOOOT!!! Farscape is my most favorite scifi, ever, of all time, period. And you know what? I honestly didn't like most of the J/A. I didn't. I don't. Most of it I roll my eyes at, because it's just not for me.

But you know what? I love John, and I love Aeryn, and their scenes are beautiful stuff. They made me laugh, cry, and stab my TV, and that's really what fandom is all about. Here's a non-shipper who can and has appreciated shipper interests. :)

Also, *hugs* on the asshat who gave you a hard time--I fear the Buffyverse is also trembling towards a serious shipper war, and that's going to get ugly (again). But hopefully we can toss fluffy pictures of J/A and Chiana at them. It's hard to be mad when Chiana's doing her head-tilt sexah walk thing! :D


You seem like a pretty awesome person, and we actually have a lot of the same interests. You wouldn't mind if I friended you? ^^

[scarfman]

I can't say I don't evince some preconceptions against shippers, but I'm pretty sure I always relate to a given individual as an individual and I'm not entirely bereft of shipping myself. I don't know what the ship wars in BVS/A are/were like. I saw (second-hand; somehow I seem to have only rational people and communities on my own flist) lots and lots of inappropriate acrimony in Doctor Who fandom in 2007 when Rose was written out as all companions eventually are, and in Star Trek fandom in 2009 when people got it into their heads that they had to choose sides between the new canon ship and the mother of all slash ships. I gather that there are some genuinely extremist shippers out there in every fandom of the sort of extremism that gets an entire demographic labeled as nutcases. On the other hand, my wife is a Doctor/Rose shipper, I was writing Archer/T'Pol/Trip while the show was still on the air, and I'm now investing a great deal of thought and cartoons into my latent Buffy/Angel shipping.

I'm not sure what my point is, except that I'm sure you have a point. (And, I'm trying to disassociate myself with the people you're talking about, of course.)