lirazel | your randomness of the day

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Y'all, I have so many problems with Catholic theology and the institution of the Catholic church, but monks and nuns are consistently the best (like, seriously, if I was Catholic, I think I would make such a great nun).

Oh, My Hand: Complaints Medieval Monks Scribbled in the Margins of Illuminated Manuscripts

New parchment, bad ink; I say nothing more.

[You don't need to, really. A dull pencil is the worst.]

I am very cold.

That's a hard page and a weary work to write it.

Let the reader's voice honor the writer's pen.

[which I choose to read as: APPRECIATE ME, DAMMIT. I PUT A LOT OF WORK INTO THIS.

This page has not been written very slowly.

[translation: forgive me my typos. Either that or it's sarcastic]

The parchment is hairy.

[Gross.]

The ink is thin.

Thank God, it will soon be dark.

Oh, my hand.

[I feel you, bro.]

Now I've written the whole thing: for Christ's sake, get me a drink.

St. Patrick of Armagh, deliver me from writing.

[I will be using that phrase ALL THE TIME.]

While I wrote I froze, and what I could not write by the beams of the sun I finished by candlelight.

[Frankly, that sounds like poetry.]

Writing is excessive drudgery. It crooks your back, it dims your sight, it twists your stomach and your sides.

As the harbor is welcome to the sailor, so is the last line to the scribe.

This is sad! O little book! A day will come in truth when someone over your page will say, ‘The hand that wrote it is no more.’

And

upupa_epops, if you would like to talk about LM Montgomery in the comments, I would approve of that most heartily.

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Oh, I think it would be awesome to hang out with other ladies and be dedicated to service and stuff. I could totally get on board with that! I have mad respect for so much of the work that so many Catholics do and I love the liturgy, but I can't get on board with the theology, so I stick with Anglicanism, which unfortunately has no nuns.

I am always so surprised when translations change names. I hear that they changed all of the Harry Potter names, too, which I just don't understand. Everything else makes sense to me, but not names!

OH YES WHEN JEM COMES HOME AND DOG MONDAY KNEW ALL ALOOOOONG.

Gilbert is one of my first fictional crushes ever,

Mine, too!

and also the guy from The Blue Castle (I do not trust that my translation got the name right).

Barney!

I had such a soft spot for Walter (lol, he'd probably annoy me today).

I loooove Walter.

She was saving candles, and she promised her aunt she would only write the truth! Emily of New Moon was the first book in my life that made me cry.

YES! Her aunt thought that writing was a waste of candles so she had to be very, very careful with them.

I have a feeling that I'm gonna spend the whole weekend reading Emily instead of learning vocabulary...

I should be concerned for your grades, but I'm mostly just delighted!

I loved Walter too! In retrospect not a big surprise.

He gave me all the feelings. Never over it.

don't wanna be over it! I still remember seeing his death coming from a mile off and just DREADING it the whole time I was reading.

OMG, you too? And I spent years upon years convinced that it was just me, and everyone else was annoyed by Walter!

aw, I loved him. In hindsight I wonder how much that was sympathy for the constant BE A FUCKING MAN bullshit he must have been subject to. I haven't read the books in a really long time, certainly not since before I'd have been able to articulate that. But it'd be interesting.

I didn't realize people didn't like him! Maybe I didn't discuss the books with people as a kid?

In hindsight I wonder how much that was sympathy for the constant BE A FUCKING MAN bullshit he must have been subject to.

But that's exactly why people don't like Walter! Because he was "such a sissy". I just liked him because he was a bookworm, it's an easy way to my heart ;). I was too young to care about him not being "manly" enough ;). From what I talked to people, they mostly loved Jem and looked down on Walter.

FOR SHAME.

(I remember really liking Jem, too, but WHAT EVEN.)

Didn't someone send him a white feather? My heart bled!

But he wrote the only important Canadian poem of the war! So THERE, people who were mean to him!

I really identified with his sensitivity a lot--he loved beauty so much and hated ugliness and I just really connected with that.

I really identified with his sensitivity a lot--he loved beauty so much and hated ugliness and I just really connected with that.

I did too. He was this super-serious little introvert; I think I responded to him in a similar way as I did to Emily Starr.

EXACTLY.

Oh, I think it would be awesome to hang out with other ladies and be dedicated to service and stuff.

It's less awesome that they have to obey every single thing they're told, no questions asked. It's worse than the army.

Just out of curiosity, what is it that you don't like about Catholic theology? I promise that I'm not looking for a religious quarrel here, and I'm not gonna try to convince you ;). I just have some problems with the Catholic doctrine myself, so I'm forever curious what other people might have to say.

I hear that they changed all of the Harry Potter names, too, which I just don't understand.

Yeah, in some languages (in Polish they just renamed Cornelius Fudge, everything else stayed in the original; the spelling of some first names was adjusted to Polish phonetics, so for example Hermione became Hermiona and Sirius became Syriusz). Basically, you do that when you're translating books for children specifically -- to make the names easier to pronounce and to remember. So the publisher of Harry Potter decided to not translate the names, because they thought their target audience for the series would be teenagers, and not kids under 10 or 12. The publisher of Terry Pratchett's Tiffany Aching series miscalculated; they decided to translate everything, because they thought the book would be read by very young readers. Instead, adult fans of Pratchett started buying the books, so the publisher had to change the policy (and the translator). Now there're two official translations of Wee Free Men and The Hat Full of Sky :).

And in 1970s, they just familiarized everything.

(Whoops, sorry XD. I'm studying to be a translator, so I automatically treated your rhetorical question as an actual question XD.)

OH YES WHEN JEM COMES HOME AND DOG MONDAY KNEW ALL ALOOOOONG.

AND THEN MONDAY STARTS RUNNING, AND JUMPING AROUND THE STATION, AND HE COULD BARELY MOVE AFTER WAITING FOR JEM FOR FOUR YEARS, BUT HE RAN TO HIM ANYWAY... And I'm crying again :(.

Ha, Barney! At least my translation got SOMETHING right. I am absolutely in love with how he told Valancy (please, tell me it WAS Valancy) that she had beautiful wrists and ankles. The best romance ever, they fell in love because they became friends! Not to mention that he was a writer. Smart is sexy.

Now I'm conflicted if I should read Emily, or The Blue Castle... CHOICES, CHOICES, CHOICES!

It's less awesome that they have to obey every single thing they're told, no questions asked.

I don't know--there's a long tradition of saints doing a lot of questioning. I was reread Sor Juana Inez de la Cruz the other day--I'd forgotten how much I love her and the way she called people out on sexism.

Just out of curiosity, what is it that you don't like about Catholic theology?

I'm not comfortable with the idea that you have to belong to the specific RCC to be in Christ and the emphasis on works; I'm pretty firmly Protestant in my "grace alone" beliefs. I don't like the institution of the church, especially with the Pope having so much power? (Part of that is growing up in a denomination that has no central governing body but individual churches made their own decisions.) I don't think the apocrypha is part of the Bible, and I'm big on the priesthood of all believers. Plus other smaller things like not believing in purgatory and not praying to saints, things like that.

On the other hand, I am far closer to Catholicism in my views on human's fallen nature (corruption instead of depravity) than I am to the Reformed/Calvinist tradition. I'm pretty firmly Arminian.

Basically, you do that when you're translating books for children specifically -- to make the names easier to pronounce and to remember.

That makes more sense, sure. And that's so interesting about Pratchett's books!

so I automatically treated your rhetorical question as an actual question

I find it fascinating! Never apologize for sharing stuff like that!

AND HE COULD BARELY MOVE AFTER WAITING FOR JEM FOR FOUR YEARS, BUT HE RAN TO HIM ANYWAY...

I KNOOOOOOOOW.

It was Valancy!

he best romance ever, they fell in love because they became friends! Not to mention that he was a writer. Smart is sexy.

YES YES YES!

I don't know--there's a long tradition of saints doing a lot of questioning.

Yeah, but I don't think this is how the lives of most nuns look today. My aunt is a nun, and from what I see talking to her, and to other nuns, living in a convent is pretty tough. Of course, there're different kinds of convent, but they all take the vow of obedience, and it's treated very seriously. Like, my aunt didn't get a permission to come for her own brother's wedding. From what I remember, her superiors once sent her abroad practically overnight (she got a week or two to prepare, and then she just moved abroad for a few years, no questions asked). Idk, I think that I'd be the worst nun ever, because I would never be able to obey like that.

Thanks for sharing your thoughts about the Catholic doctrine :). Surprisingly, I agree with most of them... Or, I guess, not so surprisingly; I've known for a long while that I'd make a much better Protestant than a Catholic ;).

I don't like the institution of the church, especially with the Pope having so much power?

Yep :(. Combine it with a pretty traditional, conservative culture, and you get a bunch of middle-aged, single guys who don't even cook their own food giving you ~advice about family and relationships. Our priests should have wives. Of course it's not going to happen in our lifetime, but it should happen now tbh.

(Also, according to some passages from the catechism that I've read a few days ago, the very fact that I'm having this conversation with you is a sin, because 1) I'm discussing the matters of the Church with someone who's against the Church; 2) I'm saying that the Church is doing something wrong. I do not understand how sharing thoughts and voicing concerns could be a sin. There's something wrong here.)

he best romance ever, they fell in love because they became friends! Not to mention that he was a writer. Smart is sexy.

YES YES YES!

I should actually do some TVD fic writing this weekend (deadlines, deadlines), so if The Blue Castle starts showing in my Damon/Elena, I will blame you! SHIPS BASED ON FRIENDSHIP!!!!!!!!!!!!

Good point. I know so much more about pre-Enlightenment nuns than I do those in the present day, and I know that going into the church was a way for a lot of women to gain some amount of agency in their lives, get an education, avoid being married off to people they didn't want to marry, etc. So I will definitely take your word for it on what it's like now.

Our priests should have wives. Of course it's not going to happen in our lifetime, but it should happen now tbh.

Yes, and I still don't understand that particular decision. Peter had a wife! I'm very glad that the reformers fixed that. I think getting married and having kids can help some clergy understand their laypeople a lot better. I've got a lot of respect for people who are celibate by choice, but I don't like it being forced on anyone who wants to join the clergy.

I do not understand how sharing thoughts and voicing concerns could be a sin. There's something wrong here

Yeah, that's confusing. I totally respect all the Catholics I know and unlike some more extreme Protestants I don't understand why people feel the need to talk like Catholics aren't Christian (that's just silly). But I also am firmly outside of it, so.

Some Protestants certainly have that way of thinking, even if it isn't official church doctrine. There are some people who hate questioning of any kind, while there are others who embrace it. It's amazing the diversity within Christianity. Sad that here in the States, at least, it's only ever portrayed in one way.

I should actually do some TVD fic writing this weekend (deadlines, deadlines), so if The Blue Castle starts showing in my Damon/Elena, I will blame you! SHIPS BASED ON FRIENDSHIP!!!!!!!!!!!!

This delights me so!

Totally agreed about the pre-Enlightenment nuns :).

Yes, and I still don't understand that particular decision. Peter had a wife!

Peter had a wife before he met Jesus, and now widows and widowers are also allowed to take vows. More importantly, priests (and even bishops!) used to have wives before 5th century, and it didn't bother anyone. It became problematic in the Middle Ages, when the children of priests wanted to inherit church property. There're also some theological arguments for celibacy (St Paul, I think?), but, from what I know, it was mostly an economical decision. And now it's tradition...

I don't understand why people feel the need to talk like Catholics aren't Christian

Whoa, really? I live in a Catholic country (over 90% of citizens were baptized in the Catholic Church; of course some of them stopped believing in God when they grew up, but still, the only people I see around me are Catholics and atheists), so I've never experienced anything like that! Why would Catholics not be Christian?

This delights me so!

Yep, LMM is exactly what my TVD angst needs now ;).

now widows and widowers are also allowed to take vows

I didn't know that, but that makes sense.

It became problematic in the Middle Ages, when the children of priests wanted to inherit church property.

Interesting. Seems like there would have been better ways to avoid that, but I am glad to know where the thinking originated.

There're also some theological arguments for celibacy (St Paul, I think?), but, from what I know, it was mostly an economical decision.

Paul says that it's better not to marry unless you just can't help it, but he also says in that very scripture that that's his opinion.

Why would Catholics not be Christian?

There's some more conservative Protestants who find Catholicism as a sort of idolatry. Or they just think that Catholicism is so theologically wrong that it doesn't even count as Christianity. Which is just absurd, but there are a lot of absurd people in the world.

Paul says that it's better not to marry unless you just can't help it, but he also says in that very scripture that that's his opinion.

Yes, but this is about Christians in general, and there were also some other passages specifically about priests. For example that a bishop should stop living with his wife when he becomes a bishop.

There's some more conservative Protestants who find Catholicism as a sort of idolatry. Or they just think that Catholicism is so theologically wrong that it doesn't even count as Christianity.

Ah, those. I see the arguments haven't changed since the 16th century ;). Well, to be fair, people who talk about idolatry sort of have a point. Things that sometimes happen when you combine worshiping Virgin Mary with folk culture strike ME as idolatry, and I was brought up Catholic, so I'm used to things like crowned pictures.

For example that a bishop should stop living with his wife when he becomes a bishop

I don't recall anything like that all--I don't think that's in there (I grew up evangelical, so I know most of the Bible back and forth--evangelicals know their Bible, let me tell you. The stories I could tell you about the ways we memorize it!). The rules for bishops/elders require being the husband of one wife (so no polygamy), but there's nothing about anyone leaving their spouse. Except Jesus talking about anyone who won't abandon their family for him being unworthy of him, but that's not connected to any kind of church leadership.

Things that sometimes happen when you combine worshiping Virgin Mary with folk culture strike ME as idolatry, and I was brought up Catholic, so I'm used to things like crowned pictures.

Sure. And that sort of thing is precisely one of the things that I disagree with as far as theology goes.

Huh, I'm not going to argue; I might've taken this rule from some early Christian scriptures that aren't the Bible. I also know my Bible pretty well; trouble is, a good part of my knowledge comes from studying history, not from studying the Bible for religious purposes. So sometimes I mix up things that appear in the Bible with things that appear in what 2-3rd century Christian philosophers said. I was pretty sure that the passage about bishops who should stop sleeping with their wives actually happened in the same letter as the one about "the husband of one wife", but now I think I could've taken it from somewhere else entirely.

Oh, there's a line about coming apart for a time and then coming back together, but I'm 99% sure there's nothing about stop-sleeping-with-them-forever. But I know less about the writing from the early Christian fathers, so I you're probably right about it coming from there.

And I didn't mean to be argumentative--totally wasn't my intention. Sorry if it came across that way!

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upupa-epops.livejournal.com - 2012-05-24 14:05 (UTC) - Expand

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penny-lane-42.livejournal.com - 2012-05-24 22:13 (UTC) - Expand

In fairness, there's also a lot of different orders. I'm the last person to defend gender roles in the Church (oh, really?) but it's not necessarily a uniform thing even within a particular era. The current crackdown on American nuns is a big shift even over the lifetime of your average American Catholic.

avoid being married off to people they didn't want to marry

be early lesbian separatists....

I still don't understand that particular decision.

I think it was at least in part to avoid the civic institution of the clergy becoming another aristocracy in an environment where people learned their trade from their families. If priests could have kids, then those kids would have been more like heirs.

I mean, it's long outdated - I'm not sure that nostalgia for that kind of political power isn't part of the way the higher-ups still cling to it - and it's certainly part of the damaging separate spheres ideology. But it does make some sense in a way that was slightly less counter-democratic than the environment in which the decision was made.

The current crackdown on American nuns is a big shift even over the lifetime of your average American Catholic

Interesting. Makes sense, of course--there's diversity within every denomination.

I think it was at least in part to avoid the civic institution of the clergy becoming another aristocracy in an environment where people learned their trade from their families. If priests could have kids, then those kids would have been more like heirs.

That does make a sort of sense. Probably not the best solution to that problem, but I can see where the thinking comes from.

WE DO SO HAVE NUNS

http://www.orderofjulian.org/home.html

(also I can't tell if I replied in the right place, whoops, this is directed at you Lauren <3)

Edited 2012-05-23 17:18 (UTC)

BADASSERY. Especially because Lady Julian of Norwich was totally a badass herself.

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