so

[lirazel]

So there's shit going down, and I'm like...what if we actually all did move over to dreamwidth? Like, I feel like the entire Spuffy community could actually get together and emigrate over there. The reason I haven't is because most everyone is still over here, you know? But seasonal_spuffy's over there now, which I feel like is our central kind of thing that holds us together? Is su_herald there? And then if we got sb_fag_ends and fantas_magoria over there, too (which they may already be cross-posted, for all I know) plus all of our personal journals (I already have one, I just don't use it except occasionally I import my lj over there as a sort of backup), that would pretty much take care of everything, wouldn't it?

I'd be willing to buy more icons over there and get a paid account and everything if I knew that y'all were going to be over there, too. I'd say about 75% of my flist is from Buffyverse fandom. And I'd be willing to continue to crosspost over here for the people who aren't, and of course I'd want to keep up with people who stayed and stuff.

I'm not saying that this is necessarily something that we need to do. And I remember when dreamwidth first started being petrified that fandom would splinter and I wouldn't know how to find people. But if the majority of us made a decision together, I think it would be workable.

Because the privacy stuff that's going on here kind of freaks me out. And lj seems to have about as much respect for its userbase as tumblr does, which is saying something. I can't say that most of the problems with lj are things that affect me personally, because they don't (not being someone who rps or makes a lot of changes to the css). But privacy is different. That affects all of us. And it's unacceptable that people are being logged into other people's accounts, including those of people who are selling things via lj and whose inboxes contain information on other people's paypal accounts, addresses, etc. The fact that the management here hasn't seen this as something that needs to be dealt with is what makes me think we might be better off on another site.

That said, I know some people don't like dreamwidth, and I've never got a real clear read on why that is? So if you have strong anti-dreamwidth feelings, do you mind letting me know what your reasoning is? I'm sure there are legitimate complaints, I just don't know what they are.

Anyone got any thoughts? Again, not saying that this is something that definitely needs to happen. I'm going or staying wherever the majority of fandom is. But I'm thinking, you know?

Also, the new font in the entry box is FUGLY. The Fug Girls would not approve.

Comments

[shipperx.livejournal.com]

there is a su_herald mirror over there.

And I have a dreamwidth account (same name as here). That I keep active for whenever LJ has brainfarts, but I just don't see my actually swapping over to DW. I can never make my journal look the way I wish. I'm not paying for two paid accounts. And I've been around on LJ for what seems like forever. It's comfy. The brouhahas always seem to blow over.

[penny-lane-42.livejournal.com]

Oh, I wouldn't pay for two paid accounts. I'd just have a paid one over there and keep this one to comment on the posts of people who haven't moved.

The brouhahas always seem to blow over.

It's the privacy thing that's freaking me out, and the fact that lj doesn't seem to care about it. They haven't responded to people's complaints, they haven't assured anyone it will be taken care of, and it seems to still be happening. I'm not okay with that. I'm not sure I want to keep giving money to a company that doesn't seem to care about my privacy, you know?

[silverusagi]

This is basically my reason. Also, LJ is the ONLY service I've ever used. And I need everything in once place. Even the twitters and tumblrs I follow, I route feeds through LJ. I just can't mess with checking three or four or five different sites a day. The few DW journals I follow, I feed throug LJ. I just don't want to be in two places at once.

[catbirdfish.livejournal.com]

Ugh. I'd love to move to Dreamwidth... if most of my flist came with me. I'm considering canceling my paid LJ account. I can't stand the constant fuck-ups and lack of respect LJ shows its users.

[penny-lane-42.livejournal.com]

Exactly. I won't move for good unless I know everyone else is coming too; that's my number one concern. If it weren't for that, I probably would have already.

I don't know if I can give up my paid account because I am so ridiculously obsessed with icons. I just don't think I could go back to 15. *sigh* Curse my weakness for tiny squares of prettiness!

[relurker.livejournal.com]

It was difficult enough for me to arrive on LJ, I haven't been able to comment any of the Seasonal stuff on DW because I found it complicated. I spend very limited time on the net, so I have no idea of what's going wrong with LJ... do I really have to try to understand? If everybody moves to DreamWidth, I'll have to make the effort eventually and try to join, but my temperament doesn't agree with changes much.
If such a migration happens, do you think there would be some kind of notice on the Herald or on the major Archives? This is worrisome.

[penny-lane-42.livejournal.com]

I haven't been able to comment any of the Seasonal stuff on DW because I found it complicated.

Did you have an account there? Or were you trying to comment via your lj account? Because if you have an account, then it should be pretty straightforward--it's very, very similar to lj. If it was the latter, then if everyone moved, it wouldn't be much of an issue, because most everything over there is pretty much just like lj except with different designs. If you were trying to comment via this lj account, then that might well be super confusing--I've never done that, because I have an account over there. I know they try to make it simple, but I would definitely believe you that it's complicated.

If such a migration happens, do you think there would be some kind of notice on the Herald or on the major Archives?

I wouldn't worry yourself about this at the moment. This is one single person (me) asking if this is something people are willing to do. It would take a looooot more discussion and planning to actually make it happen.

That said, yes, I think people would advertise it pretty widely if a bunch of people decided to follow through. I'm pretty sure it would be impossible to miss.

[ruuger]

I'm already crossposting from DW (plus reading my f-list there just as often as on LJ), and I have to say that this latest privacy cock-up is making me seriously contemplate deleting my LJ altogether and moving there for good. I really don't understand people who say that this isn't a big deal - would people say that it's no big deal if someone was able to log into their email accounts? Except that you rarely have your credit card details saved on your email account, like a lot of paid users have on LJ...

Also: list of Buffyverse communities on DW, in case you're interested ;)

[penny-lane-42.livejournal.com]

I haven't been crossposting because I have my icons over here. I post where my icons are. If I moved over there permanently, I'd have icons over there, and then I would crosspost.

really don't understand people who say that this isn't a big deal - would people say that it's no big deal if someone was able to log into their email accounts? Except that you rarely have your credit card details saved on your email account, like a lot of paid users have on LJ...

Exactly. If the complaints were just the stuff about the hover boxes and the fonts and the role-playing stuff, I wouldn't even be thinking about this. But privacy is different. I've had peple's phone numbers in my inbox before. NOT OKAY.

Ooooh! Thanks for the list!

[evewithanapple.livejournal.com]

I will say that I find DW a bit confusing, but that's just my non-tech brain talking. And the admin was very helpful when we were trying to get emergency contact info for @favoritezipper. That said, the only real community I belong to here is ontd_political, and there's probably a similar one on DW. I don't know, I'm kind of leery of moving wholesale. And there's definitely a different culture on DW, which isn't necessarily a bad thing, but would take some adjusting to. IDK. I already do have an account there (viorica) so I wouldn't have to buy one, but . . . idk.

[penny-lane-42.livejournal.com]

I personally don't find it anywhere near as confusing as I first found lj when I originally discovered it (I could make no sense of it. I thought I was stupid, it confused me so much!). But that's just me!

And there's definitely a different culture on DW, which isn't necessarily a bad thing, but would take some adjusting to.

This is true. It's definitely a little bit more social justice-y, in particular. So a little bit more SRS BNS, definitely.

[laeria.livejournal.com]

DW is nice! Really more convenient than LJ (except they really need an Expand option, like, stat), and more accessible, and DEFINITELY more respectful of the fandomy bits of its user base.

It IS culturally different, but that's up to the user base, not the people in charge, so, should a mass exodus happen, that shouldn't matter much. The communities tend to be... homogenous, in a particular socially enlightened (but also very American) kind of way that sometimes jars, and sometimes I find the fans-for-fans ideology annoying, and a bit condescending, especially when somehow the fact that LJ is Russian-run gets equated with the fact that LJ is less fandom-friendly and it all kind of gets this creepy BUT HAPPILY THEN WE WESTERNERS SHOWED UP AND PUT IT RIGHT vibe - - - but, for the third time, that's users, not management, as far as I know.

[penny-lane-42.livejournal.com]

Expand options are ESSENTIAL. Maybe they're working on it.

in a particular socially enlightened (but also very American) kind of way that sometimes jars

Fascinating. I can definitely see that. It's a much smaller community.

especially when somehow the fact that LJ is Russian-run gets equated with the fact that LJ is less fandom-friendly and it all kind of gets this creepy BUT HAPPILY THEN WE WESTERNERS SHOWED UP AND PUT IT RIGHT vibe - - - but, for the third time, that's users, not management, as far as I know.

Ew. I would SHUT THAT DOWN if I saw that. I mean, I can acknowledge that what's best for Russian users is not what's best for fandom users and that the conflict can make some things tense over here. But that's different than implying what those people are implying. GROSS.

[gryfndor-godess.livejournal.com]

That said, I know some people don't like dreamwidth, and I've never got a real clear read on why that is?

My reasons for not wanting to move to DW are irrational: I dislike change. I feel like I've just started to get a handle on blogging and fandom and made myself a little niche here, and I feel like I'd have to start all over again if I moved to DW. Also, all of my fics are posted on LJ, and I dislike the idea of having multiple archives. I also don't have a paid account on LJ (yet; I keep wanting to get one so I can edit comments and make polls, and then another cock-up like this happens), so as a customer I have less to lose.

That said, if there were a concentrated move of Spuffy fandom to DW, I would probably move, too, b/c I value you guys more than I value consistency of fandom's home.

I'm not really sure I see a big move happening, though. You mention SS moving, but in my unprofessional opinion, I don't think this round was as big a success as previous rounds have been. I think participation was down, and I'm even more confident that commenting was down. I feel like the fag_ends Mortifex prompts have inspired almost as much fic (post-wise, not by word-count, obviously) in one week as SS did in a month. Even if we got communities to move to DW, I don't think everyone would follow. I think some people would stop participating in fandom altogether.

[penny-lane-42.livejournal.com]

I was talking more about people who have ideological problems with dw. Just not liking change I can completely understand.

I feel like I'd have to start all over again if I moved to DW

This is why I'd want the vast majority of fandom to agree to move. I feel like that would cut down on that problem to a large extent.

I don't think this round was as big a success as previous rounds have been. I think participation was down, and I'm even more confident that commenting was down.

I agree, but I think a large part of that was because most everyone was still over here. If everyone moved over there, I think it would cut out a lot of that, you know?

Also, I didn't participate this time because I got sick and it cut down on my writing energy. I'm still sad, because it's the first round I missed since I started.

Even if we got communities to move to DW, I don't think everyone would follow. I think some people would stop participating in fandom altogether.

You're probably right, and that makes me sad, and I also just don't understand it. If a big group moved to tumblr or something, I would understand, since that requires you to learn how to use an entirely different kind of website. But dw is pretty much just like lj as far as the most obvious uses go, so I personally don't understand why someone would rather drop out than move over there. I just don't think it would affect anything (if everyone did it) other than the url of the website at the top of the page. But that's just me.

[ladysophiekitty.livejournal.com]

I have a dreamwidth account over there (same name) but I don't use it. If LJ keeps being stupid and failing (and the people who work for LJ aren't that helpful), though, I might have to make the shift.

I hate the new font :/

[penny-lane-42.livejournal.com]

UGH THE NEW FONT IS SO UUUUUUUGLY. I HATE IT SO MUCH.

I don't know why we can't have the same font as the one used in the comments. This font is perfectly fine! That one hurts my eyes!

[rebcake.livejournal.com]

There is much that is sucky with LJ code. The privacy thing is probably the most serious, but I've been pretty annoyed at having my posts scrambled (and more or less erased). Really? What's the point, LJ? I've been crossposting here from DW for awhile now.

However, I've had coding problems over there, too. (Is it me? Nevah!)

It's not possible to crosspost community entries from DW to LJ or vice versa. It's also not part of the DW code to import an existing LJ community to DW. sb_fag_ends does exist on DW, but few people take the trouble to post in both places. Since fantas_magoria exists largely to be a completist depository of work related to every episode of Buffy and Angel, it doesn't make sense to split it up. Once we get to the end of Angel S5, maybe things will have changed and we'll be able to do a wholesale import to DW for posterity.

I'm actually kinda bummed about seasonal_spuffy decamping from LJ, because we had just got the comm all tagged and now it will never be all in one searchable place again. I'm equally interested in finding old and new material, so I'm all for maintaining existing sources and making them more accessible for discovery, while creating copies in hopefully more stable environments where ever possible. What I absolutely HATE is people deleting existing repositories without backing them up somewhere first.

[penny-lane-42.livejournal.com]

It's not possible to crosspost community entries from DW to LJ or vice versa. It's also not part of the DW code to import an existing LJ community to DW

My question about that is whether that's because it would never be possible to do so or if it's because the ability to do so just doesn't exist yet. Because if it's never going to be possible, then tough for us. But if it's just because the ability hasn't been implemented, wouldn't it be possible to talk to the people in charge about maybe making that happen? Because that would be AWESOME.

Once we get to the end of Angel S5, maybe things will have changed and we'll be able to do a wholesale import to DW for posterity.

Yeah, I was thinking that, too.

and now it will never be all in one searchable place again.

Yeah, I've often wished we could have an archive for it along the lines of Just Rewards.

I'm equally interested in finding old and new material, so I'm all for maintaining existing sources and making them more accessible for discovery, while creating copies in hopefully more stable environments where ever possible. What I absolutely HATE is people deleting existing repositories without backing them up somewhere first.

I am COMPLETELY with you on this.

[rahirah]

I would personally be fine with it, but I don't think it will happen unless LJ tanks altogether, because too many people don't want to take the trouble to set up a new home base.

[penny-lane-42.livejournal.com]

I guess I'm weird in that I just don't think it would be much trouble? Literally the only reason I'm not over there already as my primary journal is because most of my friends are here.

[petzipellepingo.livejournal.com]

I have a DW account under the same name but I only post the daily pimpage post, I find their way of handling things confusing. Plus I'm old and stuck in my ways and the vast majority of my friends are on LJ.

Do wish however they would stop making "changes" and I say the same thing about Photobucket, no good ever comes of these "improvements".

Ever.

[slaymesoftly.livejournal.com]

It seems to be a thing with programers - they just can't leave well enough alone, and they never ask their customers before they do things, they just spend time apologizing afterward. :) That's across the board - computer operating systems, phones, journals, websites, email programs... you name it, somebody thinks they know just what it needs to even more awesome. :)

[madcap-shiny.livejournal.com]

AAAAAAAAAAAAA THAT GLITCH SOUNDS HORRIFYING

AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA

Okay, now that that's out of the way: I, too, am in the "still on lj because all my friends are here; only use my dreamwidth account for backing up purposes" camp. Also, like...all my icons are here! And my cute layout! And my monies :( MOVING JUST...SEEMS LIKE IT WOULD TAKE A LOT OF EFFORT (lololol laziness)...but oh, man, this privacy thing is just so gross, and I can't believe the staff hasn't said anything about it. (Also can't believe that anyone at all is saying "if you want to keep your info private, don't put it online," but I've see that at least once. Seriously?)

[cordykitten]

You don't have me friended back so that will probably not count but I'm staying here. DW isn't LJ but it's good to have back-up. That's what I use it for.

And please, if you didn't do it already, feel free to let LJ know @ lj_releases about the font.
Hopefully they'll listen.....
As far as I know the log into the wrong accounts was only for a short time. Hope that's true.

[brutti-ma-buoni.livejournal.com]

Well, if LJ's explanation of the glitch holds good, it's rather less horrific than had been feared. Which is a relief. Though I think they could sound a little less smug about it - being able to read someone's flocked posts, even briefly, could be damaging even if you couldn't edit etc.

I think 'we', meaning a nice little bunch of Spuffies, could move over or at least move enough to shift the centre of gravity a little. The seasonal Spuffy experience doesn't suggest it would be hugely effective with a wider fandom, but we could keep on chatting as we do here.

Thing is, being a bit pairing-agnostic, I have a *lot* of non-Spuffy, even non-BtVS people and comms here, and I'm afraid I'm staying with LJ as a result. Will probably go through a brief spasm of crossposting from DW, which usually happens around this time in an LJ crisis, then get fed up and come back here.

I must find out, actually, how Seasonal Spuffy were allowed to import the comm - last I read, DW wouldn't allow comm imports because it was multiple people's intellectual property being duplicated and you couldn't get sufficient consents to make it legal. That was quite a while ago, though, and quite possibly they've changed their minds. It'd be nice to have Phantasmagoria backed up if it's considered acceptable now.

[bobthemole.livejournal.com]

I got the impression that the mods exported the Seasonal Spuffy entries manually, or at least via some serious programming mojo with 3rd party software. Verity would have details.

[gillo]

Like lots of others, I have a DW for backup (though it's been refusing to import posts and comments for the last week) but my flist is predominantly on LJ. It's not just the "hassle" of moving, more the fact that the eclectic mix of people I have on my flist here could never be reproduced there.

I don't know what it is about DW that makes me feel less comfortable; the people who run it seem friendly and respond pretty quickly. Currently I even have a paid account there too, to show appreciation for their handling of the DDoS crisis. But I don't want to move over there completely - it feels cramped compared to LJ, somehow.

I was very, very sad Seasonal Spuffy moved over to DW, and I don't feel it worked as well. There was far less "passer-by traffic" this time, and the RSS feed to LJ seemed very bare and stark compared to the actual posts. I agree with rebcake about the tagging, too - I put a heck of a lot of time and effort into doing my share of that job and it feels totally wasted now.

If all my Spuffy friends moved over there, I might move a little further towards regular posting there and crossposting here, but I'd be very sad. Not only is there an emotional attachment for me, there's the practicality of trying to keep track of two groups on two services.

I feel very sad that the sort of fragmentation I feared when DW got started does seem to be happening. Very sad indeed.

[rebcake.livejournal.com]

Well, I don't think the tagging project was totally wasted, sweetie. Some of the functionality will be lost, but there are still YEARS of stuff that is much easier to find — meaning that it can now be found, period.

Also, I'm not sure the move will be permanent, though it may well be. Mods come and go, you know. If it stays as it is, there might not be that many more seasons, anyway.

[frelling-tralk.livejournal.com]

My main reason for not wanting to move to DW is just the boring one that I'm settled here (and my account is paid for as permanent). I suppose that part of me does resent that LJ is splintering off so much as well. Already a lot of my friends have switched to spending most of their time on tumblr or on Facebook, sometimes twitter. I guess I just miss the days when the bulk of fandom was in one place. I don't feel like DW is ever really going to replace LJ in that way with everyone from LJ making the move there, most of the accounts set up there seem to be more used as back-up accounts actually, so it just feels like more of the same of people drifting off to all these different sites and losing the fandom network that we once had with LJ. If that makes sense Idk

[bobthemole.livejournal.com]

Count me in the I'll-move-if-enough-people-move census. I use Semagic to post to both journals at the same time. No one's been commenting on my DW and I don't read my DW "reading list".

If the momentum shifts over there, I'd probably comment there more often.

[gabrielleabelle.livejournal.com]

During the DDOS attacks, I almost upgraded to a paid account on DW and moved there as my primary journal. But then things got better so I didn't.

Honestly, most of the stuff that other people get mad at LJ about, I...don't...

So I don't have much motivation to move to DW until LJ becomes completely unusable for me (as it was during the DDOS attacks). I back up my LJ there from time to time, but that's about it.

I also worry about moving to a more obscure service because I know that some people follow me on an RSS feed without LJ accounts, and, I dunno, they might get confused at the move. It just feels complicated. My LJ is for more than just my flist (or the small Spuffy circle, even). I almost feel a responsibility to be as easily accessible as possible, and moving to DW - a niche service - would be a step backwards.

So yeah, barring complete LJ meltdown, I don't foresee moving to DW. Sorry.

[angearia.livejournal.com]

This is interesting. And I think it's kinda how I feel, though I wouldn't have known quite how to express it.

[slaymesoftly.livejournal.com]

I have a DW account, but rarely read there. There is automatic xposting to lj (if you want it), so I don't have to post things twice. I can only think of one person I know who is ONLY on DW, everyone else seems to crosspost to LJ, so most activity still takes place there. I like LJ and I'm pretty comfortable with its use now (although there are still a lot of things I don't know how to do, I'm sure). My main problem with DW is that it doesn't load easily for me - which has more to do with my internet connection than DW I think. And, of course, lots of stuff is different "circle" rather than "friends" "subscribe" etc. but most people won't find that as annoying as I do probably. :) I do think it would be very difficult to get the fandom to transfer lock, stock, and barrel over there. Communities, for instance, do not x post, so that's kind of a pain if you're trying to have one both places.

Having said that, I completely missed all the stuff on lj this time. Their explanation doesn't make it sound too earthshaking, though.

[boot-the-grime.livejournal.com]

I only started using DW to crosspost to LJ when it wasn't working. I'm not sure if I should continue now... nobody seems to be reading my entries on DW anyway, any comment I get is on LJ.

[deird1]

Join me! JOOOOOIIIIN MEEEEE!!!! *flutters eyelashes enticingly*


Dreamwidth is really quite awesome. (And I miss you guys! I keep forgetting that my LJ flist exists, because I've had so much trouble logging in lately that I'm constantly a few days behind. I miss out on all the things...)

[quinara]

sb_fag_ends is over there! It's mostly just mod posts though. :/

I crosspost from DW automatically now (and, ETA, get confused about the tags over here), because I do have a few friends over there and I definitely prefer the interface, but I don't think I could move there permanently with the way things are at the moment. With Spuffy fandom, I think it's kind of the same, because, sure, there are people who are wholly in Spuffy/Buffy fandom (and I'm probably one of them), but a lot of people are involved with other LJ communities just as much as they're involved with Spuffy. Because of that it wouldn't have to just be the Spuffy communities that moved, it would have to be all the wider communities they're connected to, which would require all the other communities the people involved in those communities moving as well. I think the web of connections keeping people in LJ is really pretty wide.

Also, on top of that, there are not an unreasonable amount of people with permanent accounts on LJ, or a lot of paid time left, which would make it chafe if everyone basically said they had to move. But I think that's generally less important to people than the idea that they'd have to basically re-entrench themselves, either in less-well-populated versions of their old communities or by finding new ones. That's a lot of work, and, at the moment, there isn't much to see anyway in the world of DW comms (though there are lots of different comms to add to your reading).

PS. Re your icon - hang on, have you seen Grandma's House? You never mentioned it! I love Simon Amstell in that.

[spuffy-noelle.livejournal.com]

I have a DW account that I never use, and I only made it to participate in SS. It would probably be a good idea for me to move to DW since a lot of my F-list on here is inactive, but I just paid for a year and icons and I love my icons too much to only have 15 on DW. Maybe in June, when my year of paid LJ is up, I'd consider the move, but it seems that a lot of the people who commented on this post are against moving to DW.