Hey, y'all!

[lirazel]

Get your Xander!hate on! eleusis_walks is doing his 30 Days of BtVS, and even though there are many, many topics I strongly disagree with him on, he is always thoughtful and awesome and interesting. And the things I do agree with him on? I agree violently.

Like our mutual hate for the ultimate Nice Guy Xander Harris. He basically lists every single hateful thing that Xander ever says/does and I am glorying in my hate. He also has a love-post devoted to Anya, which I haven't gotten to read yet, but I know is wonderful because anything involving Anya is wonderful. And eleusis_walks loves Dawn and Cordy and Jenny and basically a ton of awesome ladies, so I forgive him for not loving my boy and my girl enough. ;D

So join the hate fest! Or if you like Xander...well, I would like to hear why. Because it is beyond my understanding.

Comments

Re: I don't have it in me to be a hater today (maybe ever, but definitely not today)

[penny-lane-42.livejournal.com]

When you say explicit, do you mean you wished that Xander's sexist attitudes and behaviors were explicitly dealt with? 'Cause yeah, that definitely never happened.

Yeah. I felt like we were supposed to really like this guy 'cause he's supposedly funny (though I don't find him so) and we're also supposed to feel sorry for him 'cause he's "normal" (even though normal is all Buffy ever wants to be) and so we're supposed to forgive the absolutely heinous way he treats the women around him. I just don't think the text acknowledges how awful his attitudes are.

Just like I need Willow raping Tara to be more explicitly explored. I still don't feel like anyone on the writing staff saw it that way, so it never feels explored in the text. It's just handwaved away. Things like this BOTHER ME, because so many people watching these shows aren't as wonderfully thoughtful as you are, and so they won't realize how messed up this all is.

Sleep well!

Re: I don't have it in me to be a hater today (maybe ever, but definitely not today)

[penny-lane-42.livejournal.com]

I was mostly going for pouty! Buffy's adorable when she pouts!

[penny-lane-42.livejournal.com]

I AM SO EXCITED!

I also ship them! And wrote a ton of fic back in the day, so I find this adorable.

[penny-lane-42.livejournal.com]

This is a really awesome approach to his character. I'm really glad you shared it.

Re: I don't have it in me to be a hater today (maybe ever, but definitely not today)

[blackfrancine.livejournal.com]

Wait. I thought of more things to say.

One thing I like about your perspective on Xander, is that it answers a question I had (and posed on Eleusis_Walks's journal)--I couldn't tell whether Xander is intentionally portrayed as a textbook Nice Guy (TM), or if he just is a Nice Guy, and the writers were just oblivious to what that meant insofar as entitlement to women and insidious brands of misogyny.

It didn't make sense to me that they'd create a character with literally every single Nice Guy symptom EVER on accident. But it also didn't make sense that the misogynist would get to be the hero.

BUT! Your interpretation makes sense to me in that A) The writers weren't oblivious. and B)He does make some solid changes.

I think I may be with Lauren in that I don't know if they quite get me there--his character development is just a little bumpy for my taste in S6. But, as long as I feel like there was a purpose and a plan--it helps me not to hate. Because I am SO left-brained, it's ridiculous. I NEED ORDER. Order!

Okay. That's all.

Re: I don't have it in me to be a hater today (maybe ever, but definitely not today)

[penny-lane-42.livejournal.com]

I love how we have the same reactions to EVERYTHING. Except I am not as left-brained as you are.

[eilowyn.livejournal.com]

I think this is one of the most fascinating approaches to a character I've ever read. No, really - finding what part of society they represent is kinda cool.

I also like that you try to keep your equilibrium. I try, but it's not always successful.

[blackfrancine.livejournal.com]

Xander is indeed a douche, and he is legion. It comforts me to think that he can also be a decent carpenter, a safe driver, a generous friend. He isn't entirely his worst aspects. I can't really forgive him his trespasses, but I try be fair about his accomplishments.

Wow. You're like Gandhi. And that's not sarcasm.

This is so the way one has to deal with the Xanders of the real world--because otherwise? You'll just give yourself a stroke from all the rage.

[local-max.livejournal.com]

I love Xander. But you know, it's hard to argue a case to someone who has the diametrically opposed viewpoint, because you have to be careful not to screw it up! And I'm pretty exhausted. So, I won't get into it. But anyway, HI HOW'S IT GOING HOPE YOU ARE WELL HAVING GREAT TIME YAY!!!!!

Re: I don't have it in me to be a hater today (maybe ever, but definitely not today)

[molly_may]

Yes, THIS. Xander's loyalty and his bravery go a long, long way with me. He's probably the character I like who can make me the angriest the most often, but he loves his friends. He would die for them. He's often there for Buffy when no one else is. He can see the hero in Buffy when she's at her lowest, and the goodness in Willow when she's at her, um, evilest. He's an incredibly flawed character, but also often an incredibly heroic one. I like him. And Xander/Cordy is totally my early season OTP. :)

Now, if anyone wants to talk about hating Riley, I'm your girl!

[penny-lane-42.livejournal.com]

It's true--though some people have done some masterful defenses of him here in the comments, it still doesn't change my mind because my reaction to him is very visceral.

HI I'M OKAY DOING ALRIGHT HOW ARE YOU HOPE YOU'RE AWESOME!!!

[http://users.livejournal.com/_jems_/]

Ugh, Xander. The further removed I am from the series, the less energy I tend to waste on the characters I hate, but if I were to do a rewatch (and some days I really want to! And other days I dread having to sit through all that stuff I hate. You know, like Buffy/Angel, Angel, the high school years. Well, maybe I don't hate the high school years, I more resent them because they stand between me and the seasons I really like) I can only imagine how much forgotten rage that would surface.

(My Willow issues don't usually start until later, when Aly Hannigan fully embraces that horrible breathy acting style that makes me think she's developed a constant stuffy nose. But what do I know, maybe magicks have a devastating effect on the sinuses?)

[penny-lane-42.livejournal.com]

and some days I really want to! And other days I dread having to sit through all that stuff I hate. You know, like Buffy/Angel, Angel, the high school years. Well, maybe I don't hate the high school years, I more resent them because they stand between me and the seasons I really like

This is how I am as well. I rarely rewatch the early seasons for precisely this reason. I just watch 5-7 and certain episodes in 4 over and over.

when Aly Hannigan fully embraces that horrible breathy acting style that makes me think she's developed a constant stuffy nose. But what do I know, maybe magicks have a devastating effect on the sinuses?)

HAHAHA YES! I know exactly what you're talking about!

[afterthree.livejournal.com]

I do not hate Xander, but he is fantastically problematic and eleusis_walks outlined most of those things extremely well. Her essay's are all awesome: thanks for posting about this, btw, otherwise I wouldn't have known! Awesome meta. :)

[local-max.livejournal.com]

Actually...just a sec, PM'ing you!

[penny-lane-42.livejournal.com]

He's a he, actually, but he writes great meta! And you're very welcome!

[beloved-77.livejournal.com]

O.M.G. It is *so* nice to find people who don't like Xander. It's almost like the one taboo in fandom: no one can say that they hate Xander. I'm not going into my own reasons here, but thank you for sharing this link. We must say it loud, say it proud:

We hate Xander, and we're not afraid to admit it!

Should we start a fan club?

...Or maybe that would be a non-fan club? :-P

[penny-lane-42.livejournal.com]

Wasn't there a We Hate Cordelia club, of which Xander was, like treasurer or something? We should start one of those! Only for Xander. Because we hate him. And love Cordelia.

Re: I don't have it in me to be a hater today (maybe ever, but definitely not today)

[local-max.livejournal.com]

Yay! I really love this post!

[laeria.livejournal.com]

Ooooh, your fic sounds awesome, because I love multifandom mash-ups and also snarker boys.

I initially had problem understanding how I can hate Xander and also wildly love Ron (Ron may well be my favourite HP character). I mean, their role is similar (layabout snarky loyal prime sidekick) but the effect they have on me is wildly different. What's the point that divides them? Xander's Buffycrush? Gender dynamics? The fact that we never saw Ron grow older? (I, too, didn't precisely dislike Xander until later seasons.)

[penny-lane-42.livejournal.com]

This is such a great point. Why my Ron love? Why my Xander hate? I do not know. Maybe it all comes down to the British accent.

[laeria.livejournal.com]

indeed, why your Hermione love and Willow hate? Again, tons of superficial similarities. But my love for them is wildly different - Hermione is someone I'd like to be friends with, while Willow's someone I'd keep in a cage and poke with a stick excitedly.

[penny-lane-42.livejournal.com]

Hahaha! Exactly!

[afterthree.livejournal.com]

Good to know! (So used to 99% of fandom meta-writing people being female, especially when it comes to meta about chauvinism.)

[rebcake.livejournal.com]

Wow. You're like Gandhi.

Hee! I still go all Bad Horse sometimes, but it's usually directed at characters that get off on abuse of power. Like the Watchers' Council. I hate them. Except for Lydia: she's hilarious.

Yeah, I'd be surprised if everybody didn't have a Xander in their extended family or workplace. They are everywhere. And just when you want rip their spleen out, they offer to pick up your sick grandmother's prescriptions or something decent like that. People are complicated.