Hey, y'all!

[lirazel]

Get your Xander!hate on! eleusis_walks is doing his 30 Days of BtVS, and even though there are many, many topics I strongly disagree with him on, he is always thoughtful and awesome and interesting. And the things I do agree with him on? I agree violently.

Like our mutual hate for the ultimate Nice Guy Xander Harris. He basically lists every single hateful thing that Xander ever says/does and I am glorying in my hate. He also has a love-post devoted to Anya, which I haven't gotten to read yet, but I know is wonderful because anything involving Anya is wonderful. And eleusis_walks loves Dawn and Cordy and Jenny and basically a ton of awesome ladies, so I forgive him for not loving my boy and my girl enough. ;D

So join the hate fest! Or if you like Xander...well, I would like to hear why. Because it is beyond my understanding.

Comments

[penny-lane-42.livejournal.com]

I will give him that--he does have some awesome lines!

[finkpishnets.livejournal.com]

I kind of feel bad for admitting I like Xander now. Unlike a lot of the characters (Spike, Buffy, Dawn and Cordelia in particular) who I have ready made arguments in defence of prepared, I've never really thought about why I like Xander. I mean, sometimes I hate him (Hell's Bells being a prime example), but a lot of the time I just find him kind of normal. I understand his motivations without really needing to try.

Also, in S7 when he and Dawn have their 'talk'? Yeah, major heart swelling moment for me.

So, yeah, I do like Xander even if he'd never be classified as one of my favourites, but I couldn't really express why. (Of course, I'm not sure there are very many 'hero's' or 'anti-heroes' in the show that I actually dislike.)

[penny-lane-42.livejournal.com]

Aw! Don't feel bad! I just don't get it--he's exactly the kind of character designed to most make me hate him.

If you ever figure out why you like him, I would be very interested in hearing it, because I'm always up for understanding others' POVs.

[laeria.livejournal.com]

Thank you forever for linking this, it's exactly what I needed to improve my very crappy day. (who knew hate posts could fill me with such joy? I don't think I ever hated a fictional character before. Well, maybe Owen of Torchwood - I stopped watching that because of him. But there's too much wonder in BtVS to stop watching.)

[penny-lane-42.livejournal.com]

I know! What does that say about us that we are so joyful over how much we hate this guy? I do not even know, but I don't care either!

[blackfrancine.livejournal.com]

Hee! I was actually giggling while I was reading that post--I was so overcome with hate-joy.

[redsilverchains.livejournal.com]

I’ve been trying to write a multifandom thing centering on Deadpan Snarker boys : Sokka from A:tla, Marco from Animorphs, Ron Weasley, and Xander. And I am having a hard time fitting in Xander because every single one of the other boys outshines him like, a lot. Also, while my love for all the other three magnifies as their stories go on, I zig and zag over Xander. I actually feel pretty much the same about Xander and Willow: I started out loving them but it waned over the seasons.

But…I still like him. Like dollsome, my Xander (and Willow) love began when I was younger and I love so many of his quippy moments. I never really hated them. Because they were still Xander and Willow even though they really, really angered me sometimes.

Mmmm…maybe a big part of what kept me liking them was Buffy always loving them? :p From the start, I saw them through Buffy-colored glasses.

[laeria.livejournal.com]

Yes, there may have been giggling at my end as well. Or was it cackling? It was damn therapeutic anyway.

[penny-lane-42.livejournal.com]

This is great! You know how much I love Ron, and though I've just started watching A:tLA, I have ~thoughs on Sokka. He reminds me a whole lot of Xander, except that I don't hate him because he grew more in ONE EPISODE (the one where the kick-ass girl teaches him to fight and he gets all dressed up in the makeup with the fan?) than Xander does in SEVEN SEASONS. I think he's going to continue to become awesome, and so I can like him.

I started out loving them but it waned over the seasons.

I can see this.

Mmmm…maybe a big part of what kept me liking them was Buffy always loving them? :p From the start, I saw them through Buffy-colored glasses.

I can definitely see this. I acquired those glasses later, so I understand that she loves them, but I wish she wouldn't let them treat her the way she does. *loves on Buffy*

[laeria.livejournal.com]

Well, we could probably construct a theory about how hating Xander is soul-soothing because he's not just an archetype but the actual embodiment of a social phenomenon (one prominently present in Whedon's shows) - that of the Nice Guy, who irks us daily in forms both real and fictional and yet is completely socially accepted and often sympathised with, to our collective chagrin...

But personally, I'm just nasty.

[penny-lane-42.livejournal.com]

I think this theory is completely right. And I know he intensely bothers me because of how much he reminds me of the Ultimate Nice Guy in my life (who, thankfully, hasn't ever set his sights on me).

But yeah, I'm also just nasty.

[laeria.livejournal.com]

The Ultimate Nice Guy in my life was basically Angel. And he dumped me with the same pomp and circumstance. I was similarly 17 (and sometimes I, too, ~wanted to die~). This kinda gives me hope for a Spike in my future, to be very honest.

[Not that Angel himself is particularly Nice Guyish, but other than that? Perfectly analogous.]

[penny-lane-42.livejournal.com]

Ugh. That sucks. But yes! We'll hold out for a Spike for you!

I don't have it in me to be a hater today (maybe ever, but definitely not today)

[angearia.livejournal.com]

I don't hate him.

I don't hate him for all the times he faced down vampires so Buffy wouldn't fight alone. For the times he would go work with Angel because Buffy needed help (this happens a lot in early Season 2). For going down to face the Master and bringing her back to life with CPR. For the time he yelled at Angel and Giles for being too cowardly to go try to rescue Buffy in Innocence--sure, he might die, but he's gonna die trying to rescue Buffy. For the way he told Buffy Teresa's death wasn't her fault when Buffy discovered Angel had sired her. For his quiet strength in Season 7. For his extraordinary speech to Dawn. For his humor that makes Buffy smile--she needs those smiles and he gives them to her. For his loyalty.

Yes, he has low points where he rages and lashes out. So does Buffy. So does Spike. But Xander doesn't leave and he's always there for Buffy in all the little ways that count.

I don't hate him 'cause he drives Buffy and Dawn to school in the morning. I don't hate him because Buffy can ask him for help and he doesn't even ask why, he just does it because he wants to help Buffy above all barring Angel/Spike/vampire complications b/c of his own issues. I don't hate him because Xander admires Buffy and asks himself What would Buffy do? He doesn't have the hots for her because she's got superpowers--he admires her.

Xander is the guy who can be a douche at times (and says inappropriate things way too often), but he's also the guy who'll carry you in his arms to the hospital if he has to. He's the guy who will punch his fist through a wall because his best friend's mom died and everyone is so upset and he can't do anything to help them. Xander is the guy who would give away a kidney if Buffy or Willow or Dawn needed it; he'd say, "Hey, I only need one, right? Who needs a matching set of kidneys nowadays?"

Xander was a teenager with a lot of resentment and privilege and lacking in social skills, but he grows up, he matures into a quietly supportive figure of strength who is comfortable with being supportive. That's what "Grave" is all about: he finally realizes that being supportive is what he does and that's important. It's why he's at peace with not having superpowers in Season 7. Because he's outgrown his resentment and grown into a fully supportive character. He's actually become the heart he had been purported to be.

I don't hate him for all the times Buffy would've walked alone in early Season 7 but Xander was at her side. For all the times he would've been at her side, just as a friend, if she'd wanted him to be there.

I don't hate him in the early seasons. I don't love him much either. I get really angry with him (especially all the times he lashes out at Buffy). But who he becomes by Season 7? That's a good guy and he continues to grow into the role of secure, supportive strength.

[blackfrancine.livejournal.com]

Or was it cackling?

Ha! You might be right. Cackling may be a better word for it.

[redsilverchains.livejournal.com]

I think he's going to continue to become awesome, and so I can like him.
HE IS. HE ISSS. *excited for you to see just how much* I think that episode started my Sokka-love. Plus, “I am a warrior. I’m also a girl”? Looove.

I understand that she loves them, but I wish she wouldn't let them treat her the way she does.
She is SO FORGIVING. In her place, I don’t think I would be.

Re: I don't have it in me to be a hater today (maybe ever, but definitely not today)

[blackfrancine.livejournal.com]

Aww. See. I knew that was going to happen. Some level-headed, open-hearted person would make me want to not hate Xander. You are so good at that.

Gah! I don't even know if I hate him now, after reading this:

Xander was a teenager with a lot of resentment and privilege and lacking in social skills, but he grows up, he matures into a quietly supportive figure of strength who is comfortable with being supportive. That's what "Grave" is all about: he finally realizes that being supportive is what he does and that's important.

But I still have issues with him. But you've doused me with the milk of human kindness. Damn it.

Re: I don't have it in me to be a hater today (maybe ever, but definitely not today)

[angearia.livejournal.com]

I understand why other people hate him, but to me he's a flawed character, not an irredeemable one. He has good qualities and he does good things and he grows into a better person.

I think the only person I have a deep and abiding hatred for is WARREN FUCKING MEARS. I can get my hate on for THAT GUY.

For most of the early seasons, I was either annoyed with Xander, angry with him, grateful he was there for Buffy or laughing at something silly he'd done/said. And by Season 7, I think the bad qualities had mostly petered away where there's just me liking him. He's not my favorite character by any stretch of the imagination and I mostly don't have much use for him except for the good he does for Buffy and the comic relief, but yeah. Xander's okay.

Re: I don't have it in me to be a hater today (maybe ever, but definitely not today)

[angearia.livejournal.com]

LOL! You got served some human kindness milk! *snaps*

See, if Season 7 didn't exist, I'd probably feel more conflicted. And by all rights, I should probably hate Xander for all the times he's awful to Buffy. I think Xander is a thoughtless character who ends up hurting others until he matures. It's why he's always blurting out random things and why he lashes out instead of dealing with his feelings in a healthy manner.

I guess I just appreciate all the little ways in which he is there for Buffy and Willow. And I don't begrudge him his petty feelings because I think that's human; it's shitty, but if the worst for Xander is being petty and thoughtless at times, well, stack that up against his bravery and loyalty in times of crisis.

I can't quite tell what it is about Xander. My feelings for him were mostly neutral with anger when he was a jerk and appreciating him when he was good.

Eh, this is probably way more than I ever want to be thinking about Xander. Just, hating him made me sad. Probably because it would make Buffy sad.

[zombie_boogie.livejournal.com]

The "pathetic second banana who a lot of people find amusing but who really is just a passive-aggressive toolbag and frequent disloyal friend" is one of my least favourite character types and Xander is one of the worst offenders. The worst. I used to think I was alone with my Xander hate but I'm glad to know there are others who just don't get his appeal *single tear*.

Re: I don't have it in me to be a hater today (maybe ever, but definitely not today)

[gryfndor-godess.livejournal.com]

THIS.

I'm compelled to read hate!meta out of weird masochism and I agree with a lot of the points Xander-haters make, but I'm also glad to see someone (articulately!) defend him. I might not like Xander that often but I'll always love him because he's a Scooby (the same way you don't always like your family but you love them because they're family). The same way I don't like Willow for most of S5-S7 but I still love her. Same way I can't stand Giles in S7 but I still love him. I just can't find it in me to really hate any Buffy characters b/c without them, the show wouldn't be the same.

But who he becomes by Season 7? That's a good guy and he continues to grow into the role of secure, supportive strength.

Very well said. :)

[angearia.livejournal.com]

Here's some Season 7 reasons to not hate Xander Harris:

+ When everyone is complaining about Buffy's decision to bring Spike into her house, what does Xander do? He says, "I've got a house to put back together" and he fixes Buffy's house. Because he already put in his two cents when he agreed to room with Spike and now he's just in full on support mode.

+ "They'll never know how tough it is, Dawnie, to be the one who isn't chosen. To live so near to the spotlight and never step in it. But I know. I see more than anybody realizes because nobody's watching me. I saw you last night. I see you working here today. You're not special. You're extraordinary."

+ "I've been through more battles with Buffy than you all can ever imagine. She's stopped everything that's ever come up against her. She's laid down her life—literally—to protect the people around her. This girl has died two times, and she's still standing. You're scared? That's smart. You got questions? You should. But you doubt her motives, you think Buffy's all about the kill, then you take the little bus to battle. I've seen her heart, and this time—not literally. And I'm telling you, right now, she cares more about your lives than you will ever know. You gotta trust her. She's earned it."

+ "Well, you know, it's like, uh... when a cow gets old and loses an eye, or its ability to be milked, the farmer takes it and puts it in a different pasture so it won't have to... fight...with the priests. Look, I don't need you to protect me...I got hurt, but I'm not done. I can still fight... I just always thought that I would... I would be there with you... you know, for the end."


This is Xander in Season 7. Secure and supportive.

[penny-lane-42.livejournal.com]

I will say that I do not hate him in S7, and I think he does grow up a lot in that season. But by that time, I've disliked him for so long, I really don't care that he's finally grown up. If he'd grown up a few seasons before, it may have salvaged him for me. *sigh*

I do love that he loves Buffy and Dawn (even if he's "I'm the one that sees things" makes me laugh) and that it finally seems platonic re: Buffy. You get a lot of points for me when you love my girls.

[penny-lane-42.livejournal.com]

Aw! I actually love Ron. But I will join you in reveling in your Xander hate.

[angearia.livejournal.com]

For me, the good qualities that stand out in stark relief in Season 7, they've always been there. It's just that he's finally outgrown his more petty and selfish qualities. He's finally become more secure with who he is and so his lack of raging insecurities don't lead to him taking it out on others.

It's like even when he was being a jackass in the past, there'd still be good stuff going on (his loyalty to Buffy, his trying to help his friends without concern for his own safety). I do think Season 3 is where Xander is at his worst and I'm having trouble thinking of good stuff in Season 3 besides the Zeppo.

Pretty sure I've now talked about Xander way more than I've ever wanted to!