lirazel | *rolls eyes*

Did you know that we as Spuffy/Spike fans have ~superpowers???? That we can render things meaningless for other people?

Having been informed several years ago that Spuffies destroyed all of television (No joke.

shapinglight even has an icon), I've known for a while that in certain quarters we are considered to have superpowers.

Unfortunately said superpowers never seemed to incorporate us getting anything we actually want, but our mere existence seems to be enough to be a constant agitant to some, so I suppose that's considered to super power enough. >:]

LOVE YOUR ICON.

Having been informed several years ago that Spuffies destroyed all of television

You don't happen to have a link, do you? I would love to read this.

So is this the "WE ARE BECOME SPUFFY, DESTROYER OF WORLDS" icon? Because that one never fails to make me laugh.

Unfortunately said superpowers never seemed to incorporate us getting anything we actually want, but our mere existence seems to be enough to be a constant agitant to some, so I suppose that's considered to super power enough. >:]

HAHAHA. I will never stop laughing at this.

I do as I posted about it in my LJ at the time, but I'd have to go searching back to 2005 or something to find it. I hate to admit that I don't even remember what it was about, just that some critic (and by that I mean some crazed internet fan) was blaming totally unrelated storylines on some totally unrelated show to being all about Spuffy and Spuffy fans and that Spuffies broke television, damn it! We ruined it for everyone! Hee!)

Superpowers indeed.

(And if everything after Season 3 is dreck... why are OMWF, Hush, Restless, and The Gift always listed as a sampling or BtVS's greatest high points?)

Edited 2010-06-15 15:53 (UTC)

You know, I think I may actually have read it one time? But it was a long time ago, so it's fuzzy. Still lolarious, though.

(EXACTLY.)

Although I have to admit that it's easier for me to watch the early seasons as opposed to the later ones. The later ones still touch a lot of somewhat raw nerves where watching the the early seasons is far more LOL!

That said, I think the earlier seasons are coming off a bit more dated. The latter seasons being a bit more epic-urban-fantasy-ish/internal angst oriented makes them seem a bit more tireless. The earlier seasons look very "high school in the 90s" now. Which, while not bad (especially if one was in high school in the 90s and thus it brings back war,m squishy memories) makes it seem very time specific.

I watch a ton of S7 scenes over and over again despite thinking the season is weak in a lot of ways. Favorite/most watched episodes =/= best, you know?

And I totally agree. I went to high school in the early 00s and I have no particular affection or nostalgia for that period. I also can't relate to Buffy personally nearly as much during that time as I can during the later seasons.

It's funny how some make it entirely about ship. I consider Surprise, Innocence, Becoming and Becoming II to be quite seminal to the series, and it's not my ship. Similarly, Dopplegangland is a favorite and it has nothing to do with my ship either.

Quality has nothing to do with ship preference.

But then, that's sane and rational talking ... which isn't always the case with fandom.

Edited 2010-06-15 16:25 (UTC)

True. I admit that I tend to rewatch the ship-heavy episodes because, hey! It's what I like. But there are so many others (like the ones you list) that have nothing to do with ship.

It was someone from TWoP, I think.

So is this the "WE ARE BECOME SPUFFY, DESTROYER OF WORLDS" icon? Because that one never fails to make me laugh.

Yep, that's the one.

frimfram made it if you want to snag.

No joke. [info]shapinglight even has an icon
This the one you're thinking of?

frimfram made it back when that kerfuffle happened. *is proud Spuffy shipper*

LOVE. IT.

Out ship BROKE TV FOREVER. *nods*

CLEARLY WE ARE MIGHTY.

Except when it comes to spelling...

(Speaking only for myself here.)

I suck at spelling! And typos!

Lol! I thought the spelling was Oppenheimer's fault?

I think in many cases those who hold to the "first three seasons are all that really matter" are of the same mindset as those 40 year olds fondly looking back to their high school "glory years". I have learned to avoid most sites that are not clearly Spike or Spuffy friendly (at least). I get tired of the depth of the nastiness I find otherwise.

Kathleen
Superpowered! YAY I am now a Joss variety representative of girl power!!! What are my powers cause I wish to do violence?

YES. I also think it's like

deird1's Vegemite Effect: they're so used to it being one way that when things don't turn out the way they expect, they reject the idea that things might be different but still good. And I understand that--I fall into the same patterns of thinking sometimes. But it's so prevalent in Whedon fandom, and it drives me CRAZY.

I have zero problem with people liking the earlier seasons better, even though I don't. My problem is when people speak definitively about how the earlier seasons are better and everyone knows it and anyone who disagrees is WRONG WRONG WRONG and just blinded by the site of Rapist Spike's Abs of Hotness.

I think your powers are mostly just ruining BtVS for the "real" fans who watch the show in the "right" way. But maybe we could invest in some rocket launchers?

It's very simple. They're right. We're wrong. And we're wrong to not acknowledge their rightness. See? Simple.

And I admit, I didn't even click on the link. Is it about some episode poll?

Back when FX did Thanksgiving Day Marathons and had fans vote on favorite episodes, 'Fool For Love,' 'The Gift' and 'Intervention' always used to come out near the very top.

Edited 2010-06-15 16:05 (UTC)

Of course! Why didn't I see it before!

People got to vote for the episodes that they wanted to watch in some marathon on some random channel I don't think many people get. And later seasons and Spike-centric episodes seem to have dominated it and PEOPLE ARE FREAKING OUT.

Because clearly the only reason you could like "Something Blue" is because you're a Spuffy. CLEARLY.

Ah. Logo?

Why are they surprised? Someone should remind them that this was always but always the case with the FX polls for Thanksgiving marathons back in the day

Some (oh...like Dark Horse for example) never like to acknowledge that Spuffies are "really" part of the fandom, much less a significant-sized chunk of it.

Yeah, I've never even heard of that channel before.

Someone should remind them that this was always but always the case with the FX polls for Thanksgiving marathons back in the day

I wish someone would.

Yeah, we're definitely the red-headed stepchild of the fandom, but at the same time, we're accused of TAKING OVER EVERYTHING.

Whatever. When they can work up as much creativity and energy and longevity as our section of fandom has, they can TAKE OVER EVERYTHING, too.

Makes total sense when you consider the same folks say that Spike took over episodes where he appeared in only one or two scenes. >;)

That would be LOGO (the gay channel).

Top 30 eps as voted by fans:

30. Buffy vs. Dracula
29. The Prom
28. Who Are You?
27. Graduation Day, Pt. Two
26. Bewitched, Bothered, and Bewildered
25. Primeval
24. Grave
23. Halloween
22. Surprise
21. Band Candy
20. Tabula Rasa
19. Touched
18. Innocence
17. Becoming, Pt. Two
16. Out Of My Mind
15. Doppelgangland
14. The Initiative
13. The Body
12. Gone
11. Intervention
10. The Gift
9. Beneath You
8. Crush
7. The Wish
6. Lovers Walk
5. Chosen
4. Fool For Love
3. Something Blue
2. Hush
1. Once More, With Feeling

Definitely Spike/Spuffy and later season-heavy near the top. :)

I had never heard of the channel, but any channel doing marathons of BtVS gets my vote!

Hee. My dad watched most of it. Whenever I walked past, he'd ask me if I'd voted for that episode (Cause I voted whenever LOGO had their online thing). Then I had to tell him if he'd seen it before or not (He's watched S4 through the first part of S6).

Now he's seen it all out of order. He was very confused by Chosen. Though they did have a nifty recap before every episode. Not the one that was originally aired, but more comprehensive ones that very nicely intro'd the ep.

That sounds completely adorable.

I watched a few episodes with a 76-year-old relative who loved 'Band Candy' for the 70's references she totally got, and used the fact that the episodes aired on Logo as a chance to plug her gay-friendly Episcopalian church. I was complaining about having to do all this icky complimentarian gender stuff for a theology class, and whenever I get disgusted with some prevalent Evangelical social beliefs, I say I'm becoming an Episcopalian.

Wow, that was kinda off topic, but I'm drugged on cold medicine right now, so I'm using it as an excuse.

We should clearly talk religion sometime. But not right now. I just ate massive amounts of catfish and need a nap which I won't be getting because I have WORK and stuff.

I'm surprised that Buffy V. Dracula ranked that high, and I'm surprised that Becoming Part II ranked that low.

Yeah, it's interesting trying to figure out the logic on some of those.

It seems that the early seasons and B/A eps have good representation on the lower part of the list. The top half is almost all Spike/Spuffy/late season, though (Hell, I think Gone made it on there purely because of the naked!Spike scenes).

So while the early season fans were out in force, those mean ol' late season/Spuffy fans overpowered them! How horrible!

So while the early season fans were out in force, those mean ol' late season/Spuffy fans overpowered them! How horrible!

I will never cease to be amused by people who seem shocked to realize that Spike/Spuffy fans . . . are fans of Spike/Spuffy, or that Spike/Spuffy may be popular because . . . they're popular. The fact that our numbers reflect our influence on fandom seems baffling to them, because they know we have it all wrong.

OMG this! :D

shocked to realize that Spike/Spuffy fans . . . are fans of Spike/Spuffy, or that Spike/Spuffy may be popular because . . . they're popular.

Love the way you put this. Can I add... Duh!?

Funny. I just got done leaving an irritated post there which was much milder than what I was really feeling. I'm actually pretty pissed off. In an American way of course. Too early in the morning for English pissed.

But I digress. It really gets old being the butt monkey of fandom. We totally got shat on with Season 8, are so unimportant and minor that the powers that write shitty comics felt perfectly fine with the shitting, but yet somehow we have the power to subvert a favorite episodes list.
FUCK YOU STUPID OTHER FANS!
Ah. I feel better now. Thanks for letting me vent, feel free to delete this if you don't want the drama!

Wait. What's your name over there? I never knew you were there!

I'm pretty pissed off, too, but last time I got snarky, I got chastised for it, despite the fact that the other person was being way more patronizing than I was. Whatever.

YES to your analysis of fandom politics.

No, no, feel free to vent. This is a vent-safe space!

Xane

Are you really? I've liked you forever over there and never realized it was you! Craziness!

I loved your comment about the fact that the show is airing on Logo being a factor because the list skews towards the queer relationship of Spuffy and the gender role-bending character of Spike. If my therapist allowed me to post on there (she thinks it would cause undue amount of stress), I would have totally WORDed you for that.

I talk about my therapist a lot. It's a thing.

If my therapist allowed me to post on there (she thinks it would cause undue amount of stress)

Hahaha, I think your therapist is absolutely correct.

That made me laugh a lot!
If I had a therapist, she would probably tell me to stop looking at whedonesque. And the Darkhorse forums.

There are days (like today) where I am incredibly thankful that I never signed up for an account at Whedonesque, because I would've been banned so fast your head would spin if I could comment on this thread...

You bring lots of joy to my life in lots of different ways, but your stories about therapy OWN MY SOUL.

Hey cool! I've seen your posts! I'm WilliamTheB over there! Smiles==> :)

OMG I just realised why I like not only seasons 5-7 of Buffy, but the last two seasons of The X-Files and season 5 of Babylon 5, and prefer the post!Clooney years on ER! It's because of spuffy! And here I've always thought that I prefer later seasons because the cast is more comfortable and the characters have more history...

(when I saw your post I first thought that someone had finally posted a link to this at Whedonesque causing the Joss-can-do-no-bad brigade to crawl out of their lairs again)

SPUFFY DESTROYS EVERYTHING.

I loved your post over there, btw. Even if Simon swooped in to shut things down.

I do adore comfortable casts and characters having history....Hmmm...

(OMG. I wish someone would! And yet I don't, because it would turn ugly very quickly and everyone would FREAK THE HELL OUT and you and I and Emmie and whoever would have to start taking blood pressure medication. Otoh, there was some great discussion of that post over on

ontd_feminism.)

Damnit, I only noticed Simon's post after making another comment. Oops. *waits for the banhammer*

And I would have posted that link myself if it wasn't for the title, because I know 90% of Whedonesquers would stop reading the moment they saw that. Even though I don't think the essay is even that critical of Joss.

I don't think you'll be banned. ;D

Yeah, it's not criticizing Joss. It's criticizing fandom, and it's definitely aimed at quite a few of the people who hang out at whedonesque.

I think I need that icon. It's pretty much the story of my life.

Guess what? I got banned :)

:-(

I've posted that link.

ARE YOU SERIOUS?

Banned for good? I've seen people say much more out-of-line things and get away with it!

Okay, now I'm just mad.

Just for a day, I think. At least that's what Simon said in the thread and I can't log in so I guess I'm one of the banned.

Oh, okay. One day. That's not nearly as bad as I thought it might be. I was gonna get all fired up.

Oooh thank you for that link - very interesting article and one I shall be linking to myself in future!

Um . . . I know it would be the equivalent of setting off a nuclear bomb in fandom, but can I send that link to Simon? I think it is an important article that should be examined, even if the Joss apologists will either turn a blind eye or come out en masse to bash.

Wow, that's an excellent essay. I really think it ought to be posted at Whedonesque.

OK, chaps, I'm going in. I may be some time, as Captain Oates said...

Hey! They posted it! I expect Lirazel and Emmie to represent in the comments. :)

Edited 2010-06-15 20:14 (UTC)

Return of the douchebags!

Looks like the grapes are tasting sour...

Wow, how horrible that a lot of people still like Spike. Let's declare them all pseudofans!

Not only are we WRONG WRONG WRONG, we also "hijaked" the poll! HEAVEN FORBID!

Yeah, I find that accusation so pathetic. It took quite while to take the poll and I doubt many people did it more than once.

But of course it's impossible that there are casual fans who happened to like some of the Spike centric episodes. Impossible! Since only S1-S3 are any good and every man who's true to the Buffyrealms knows that!

Even if they did vote a whole bunch of times, who cares? It's just one marathon on one random channel and everyone will have forgotten about it within weeks if not days. It's not like it really matters.

Besides, I'm all about the Spuffy-fandom conspiracies. I feel like if this was one...I'd've known about it. *shifty eyes*

Maybe we're all sleeper agents of Spuffy and late at night we voted and voted and voted and now we can't remember.

OMG LIKE THE MANCHURIAN CANDIDATE.

Anything involving Frank Sinatra is awesome to me. Also, Angela Lansbury.

I really, really, really love that movie.

OMG LIKE THE MANCHURIAN CANDIDATE.

Anything involving Frank Sinatra is awesome to me. Also, Angela Lansbury.

I really, really, really love that movie.

Yay The Manchurian Candidate!

Although I was thinking it would be more apropos to have "Early One Morning"-activated sleepers....

Gah. What a fantastic movie. And such a product of its time. I refuse to watch the remake.

YES. That would be much more apropos!

Okay, we now need to find someone to make an icon that says
SPUFFY FANS: IN UR FANDOM, HIJACKING UR LISTS or something.

I wish I had photoshop skills.

I would use the hell out of that icon.

Since I was banned from commenting at Whedonesque, I need something else to do... :)

Photobucket

HAHAHAHA! WIN!

This. Is. BRILLIANT!!!!

Well...of course we control the horizontal and the vertical! They are very inspirational (and flexible) our ship!

Well done!

YOUR ICON ACTUALLY SOUNDS LIKE MY ENTIRE LIFE AND THAT MIGHT MAKE ME A BAD PERSON, BUT ACTUALLY.

I'm 90% positive that that's a James Marsters quote. And I've been eyeing it for weeks, thinking, "I think I need that icon...."

Haha, it is. And you do.

The text in the icon is an actual quote from James Marsters, ~~taken out of context~~ made into an icon by

shinyshinybaum. There is a whole batch of them in this post (just scroll past the Christmas icons - the quote icons above them are things said by fans).

You need to join the community to see the icons, but it's so worth it - the quotes range from Carebears to Ceasar's testicles :D

Jamses quotes FTW! This is another one of my favorites. :)

ROFL - Wonderful!!

Awesome! You're going to see these everywhere! (credited, of course)

Wonderful! And with their own inner truth.

BWAHAHA YES!

And wtf? You got banned? I just read the thread after where I'd posted last night and didn't see anything worth banning about. Except you fairly noting someone making unfair accusations and assumptions.

Just for a day, but yeah, I got banned. Most likely it was because I missed Simon's warning and replied to hellmouthguy without checking my snark at the door :)

And I wouldn't be surprised if I was already on some troublemaker-list, seeing that these days I tend to comment at Whedonesque only if I vehemently disagree with someone...

And I wouldn't be surprised if I was already on some troublemaker-list, seeing that these days I tend to comment at Whedonesque only if I vehemently disagree with someone...

This is so me. That, or to squee over Enver....

I have snagged one of these brilliant icons! Thank you!

Well that's just... neat!

^_^

What? Just because you watched the show, bought the DVDs, and participate in fandom long after the show has gone off the air, you think you're a fan?!

Pfft! Amateur!

Buffy and Angel broke up nearly 11 years ago... (Graduation Day Pt.2 aired on the 13th of July 1999).

Just sayin'.

;)

Wow. That was...a long time ago.

I know! Took me rather by surprise too.

Wow. Now I'm feeling old...

HI, WE ARE BOTH IN CAPSLOCK MOOD!

What that dude said...huh.

Early season lover here. S2-3 are very, very dear to me; I adore fuzzy!Willow and schoolboy!Xander; and highschool!Buffy is special to me.

But I watched S5-7 for ZOMG Buffy/Spike so according to him, I am rendering myself meaningless...?

*collapses in on herself*

I totally understand the early!season!love, even if my heart belongs to the later seasons (OLDER!BUFFY FTW!).

YOU'RE MESSING UP THE TIME/SPACE CONTINUUM. STOP IT NOW!

Also, in case you couldn't tell, I LOVE CAPSLOCK!

Somehow, I knew this would descend to bickering before too long. The list is somewhat Spuffy. Possibly because there are still a lot of active Spuffy fans around (look at

seasonal_spuffy if you want evidence) or a lot of people who wanted some of the funnier episodes for a weekend Buffython.

Idiots who use terms like "indefensible" about lists of favourite episodes really do need a spanking, though. And not in a fun way. ;-)

I totally agree about the spanking.

Spike and Spuffy fandom is dynamic and seems to be bringing new people in all the time. Casual fans probably just want to watch the lighter episodes, as you say. Combine these two things, and the results don't shock me at all.

Exactly. Add to that the fact that the later seasons have more depth and more confident writing. Who, seriously, honestly, actually believes S1 is better than S5? Apart from *cough* crackheads?

But if it's all about Spike, then there are some bizarre inconsistencies... I mean, I realize Spuffy fans are incapable of rational thought, but you'd think we'd at least remember to include "Smashed." There's sexxing in it!

Spuffy-bashing aside (because that's par for the course), I have to admit, some of those comments make me cringe in a Josh Lyman "That's not being a fan, that's having a fetish" kind of way. Seriously? Ranking every single episode in order of preference? Thinking up characters' favorite episode list?

And they say the Spuffy fans are the crazy ones.

I KNOW, RIGHT? WHERE'S THE SEXXIN'?

:D

Haha! I'm now imagining Joss discovering TV fandom. *dies laughing*

Oh god, not the "only the first three seasons are the real Buffy" crowd again. I will never understand that crowd. I enjoyed the first three seasons, but I never connected with the characters in the first three seasons. It wasn't until Buffy stops being that cheerleader/prom queen wannabe and grew up that I started identifying with her, that I started really loving her. And the funny thing is that even now, when I go back, I STILL don't connect with her. Because I just don't understand her. Even knowing all that's to come, I still find her high school issues trivial for the most part.

(I think season 1 is campy fun but pretty terrible overall and season 2 has some amazing episodes and a great arc, but I find season 3 is completely killed by Angel/Buffy. Buffy's emotional arc is TERRIBLE in that season, just because they can never seem to figure out what's going on between her and Angel. Meanwhile, I think season 4 is the best season for standalones, season 5 is the best season overall and season 6 has the best emotional arc for Buffy. So, you know, I'm obviously wrong.)

I enjoyed the first three seasons perfectly well. I would even say it was my favorite show. I dutifully taped it on my VCR, then watched it when I got around to it, then erased it.

By the end of the run I was a whole different kind of fan. I watched each episode in real time because I couldn't wait, plus the picture was better, and I watched each episode more than once. I was on line reading reviews and analysis, and seeking out more info and analysis. Since the show ended I have participated in one way or another in fandom on a nearly daily basis. I buy everything Spike related I can find. And even though I'm starting to scare myself with what I just wrote I guess I'm not a real fan either.

Buffy made me into a different kind of fan too, but it didn't happen until season 5. And that's carried over into almost everything else I watch, too.

Hello. Are you me?

I enjoyed the first three seasons, but I never connected with the characters in the first three seasons. It wasn't until Buffy stops being that cheerleader/prom queen wannabe and grew up that I started identifying with her, that I started really loving her.

YES.

And I agree with you totally, totally, totally about your season-by-season breakdown. Most concise one I've ever seen.

I could very well be! (I haven't been feeling like myself lately.)

Concise? Even with my season 3 rant in the middle there? *g*

Maybe I'm you? (I haven't, either.)

Yes! Even so!

I want to give this comment a big ol' helping of WORD.

It's officially one of my favorite comments ever.

Thank you! (Though I wish I could go back and clean up the grammar, I think I edited what I had written about five times too many before hitting post.)

It wasn't until Buffy stops being that cheerleader/prom queen wannabe and grew up that I started identifying with her, that I started really loving her.
I'm sure it won't surprise you that I feel the same!

Also love your season break down, although you left out S7, which - speaking for myself here - is represented by my icon. :)

I have such a hard time with season 7. I almost added it to my season 6 statement "season 6-7 has the best emotional arc for Buffy", but I'm not actually sure that's true. I think the intention for it is there, it just got too muddled by the uncertainty of a season 8, the positioning for spin-offs and the behind-the-scenes politicking. Had they finished what they set in motion with season 6, had they made Buffy's emotional journey a stronger thread throughout the season, I think season 7 would have worked much better.

(I often think that the problem with Buffy's emotional arc in season 7 is that they were too scared to tackle the Buffy/Spike thing head on after the AR and the fandom backlash. And since Buffy was so much about him, the writers had to make her less emotionally available to the audience so as not to have to state explicitly what was going on there. I feel like in every other season I know exactly what's going on with Buffy emotionally, but in season 7 it's mostly just conjecture on my part.)

Oh there are definitely *problems* with S7, but if I had to choose only one season? That'd be the one. Partly, I recently realised, because that way I'd get all the others too, what with all the back story that's tied into everything.

So, despite all the things that were mismanaged, I still love it best. :)

(I often think that the problem with Buffy's emotional arc in season 7 is that they were too scared to tackle the Buffy/Spike thing head on after the AR and the fandom backlash. And since Buffy was so much about him, the writers had to make her less emotionally available to the audience so as not to have to state explicitly what was going on there. I feel like in every other season I know exactly what's going on with Buffy emotionally, but in season 7 it's mostly just conjecture on my part.)

This is so insightful and, I think, so true.

I have a bad cold, I'm drugged out on medicine, I still feel metaphorically hung over from my big wedding weekend, and now the idiots are out in force, saying that my opinions are invalid because they fall in with the "hijacker" crowd.

Going back to bed.

Aw, hon! *hugs*

How was the crazy wedding?

Enjoy bedtime!

Yes, I am a hijacker & for the Buppy crowd I simply invoke the old Black Panthers mantra, "Up against the wall, m****rf****rs, this is a stick-up!!" ;)

Oy. You know, I'm just going to stand here with my pom-poms and be the B/A shippin' high-school-seasons-are-my-favorite fan that hella supports your Spuffy shippin' later-seasons-are-better self. BECAUSE THAT'S WHAT'S SO GREAT ABOUT OPINIONS, EH? You can respect them! And even be friends with people who have preferences that diverge from your own!

Oh, Whedonesque. ~~Never~~ change.

I KNOW I KNOW. We totally disagree but we love each other anyways! Why can't everyone be as awesome as us?

I feel like the Internet just ATTRACTS people who weren't paying attention to lessons about respect and self-awareness and just, you know, not being an asshat. They all come here! And then we have to use our aggravated icons!

What makes me snicker and groan in equal turns the most is the pervasive "omg I never said Spuffies/Spike fans had invalid opinions" reaction after the poster got called out on his comments. When, uh, yes, that was...exactly what was said.

It totally does. It also lets people who would otherwise be ashamed into acting like people act like...not-people.

AGGRAVATED ICONS FTW!

YES. I thought I was maybe overreacting to that, but he basically said all this stuff and then said he didn't say it! WHAT.

I feel like the Internet just ATTRACTS people who weren't paying attention to lessons about respect and self-awareness and just, you know, not being an asshat.
As always, xkcd has the solution:
title or description

ETA: Oh! And Dinosaur Comics too, of course:

Edited 2010-06-15 21:26 (UTC)

These are awesome! And so true. Especially the first one.

It's a good thing I have a lot of aggravated icons...

They all come here! And then we have to use our aggravated icons!

Ours is a heavy burden. WOE.

I WATCHED THAT MARATHON.

I LOVE LOGO. AND FY OMWF BEING #1. IT WASN'T YOU VOTING ON THE BEST EPISODES. IT WAS YOUR *FAVORITE* EPISODES.

YAY!

I know nothing about Logo! But they have BtVS marathons, and that is awesome!

1. IT WASN'T YOU VOTING ON THE BEST EPISODES. IT WAS YOUR *FAVORITE* EPISODES.

THIS. Why do people not get this? My favorites list is very different than my "best" list. And that's okay!

I am glad you're back!

LOOK AT YOU.

HAHAHAHAHA AM I LOOKING AT SOMETHING SPECIFIC?

YOU ARE HERE.

I THINK WE JUST LIKE YOUR FACE.

STOP GOING TO WHEDONESQUE IT'S BAD FOR YOU.

SEE I READ YOUR WORDS AND RECOGNIZE THE WISDOM BUT I HAVE NO SELF-CONTROOOOOL.

Well, that's just ridiculous. EVERYBODY knows the even-numbered seasons are the best ones! Anybody who thinks the odd-numbered ones are in some way an improvement are out to lunch. I mean, there are MORE of the odd-numbered ones, sure, but that's no indication of quality! Sheesh. I feel like I'm talking to a wall here!

No it's the seasons that leave a remainder 2 when divided by 3 that are the best (2, 5)! it's obvious!!1!

You are a different person than me. I would abandoned these people to their own stupidity long ago.

You are a wiser person than me. I seriously do not understand why I keep getting pulled back in. I should never have signed up for an account. When someone says something dumb on, say, BuffyForums, I move on, because I can't reply.

I wonder how one would go about deleting one's account....

Not to worry. It sounds like if you just carry on with the battle for sanity and perspective, and you'll get banned eventually.

Edited 2010-06-16 20:31 (UTC)

We are Spuffy hear us roar!!

I am concentrating right now on rendering all anti-Spuffies and whingers sterile merely by concentrating on Buffy administering invisi-latio to Spike in "Gone". It's unlikely to occur to the Buppies -- my new term for those who just know that the Buffypuppyluv years were the perfectest ever -- that the demographic might have a special fondness for that scene, I mean, uhm, ep ;) . . .

Ha!

Oops. I feel bad now--I said in my Whedonesque comment, "The extreme Spuffiness of the poll does make things seem a little skewed." I hope you know that I'm not dissing anyone! I was trying to communicate, "Wow, that list is Spuffier than mine would be!" (Though my list would have Dead Things in the top ten, which is very Spuffy.)

I also hope I counterbalanced this by spending a paragraph talking about how much I love that Gone was on the list, even though I think it's not a good episode, because it's awesome that there are people who love it.

ANYWAY. Any list that has The Wish and Doppelgangland at high places hasn't been taken over by Spuffies. DOWN WITH TEH HATERS!

(Also, I still can't get over how the author of the poll results article complained that "Innocense" wasn't on the list. USE A SPELL-CHECKER. THEY COME WITH WORD PROCESSORS.)

OH RIGHT. And after finally getting to the point where I'm not annoyed at everything Hellmouthguy says, he goes and once again is a raging jerk:

"I don't know, Changeling, maybe it's just my tone when I post? Because nowhere in my posts did I say that my opinion is objective while everyone else's is subjective. Yes, I do tend not to bother adding "in my opinion" when I post, because it seems redundant, and I admit I can be rather blunt. But I don't begrudge anyone their opinion."

YES IT IS YOUR TONE WHEN YOU POST. ACCUSATIONS OF HIJACKING BY PEOPLE WHO LACK PERSPECTIVE MAY VERY POSSIBLY UPSET PEOPLE.

I know, right?!?!? I've been agreeing with him a lot lately! Thinking he can occasionally be reasonable! And then THIS!

Thinking about it again this morning, the thing is I think he genuinely doesn't get the difference between stating an opinion civilly and throwing around words like "indefensible." The world indefensible doesn't mean, "I don't know what a good defense of this ep as #3 would be." It means, "There exists no good defense." If you say, "That ep sucked" we can all kind of nod along and understand the implicit 'IMHO'. But he's saying, "It is IMPOSSIBLE that that ep is good enough to be on this list," and then doubling back and wondering why people are upset, because it's *just his opinion, right*?

The other thing I just realized about the early-season-is-obviously-better crowd: what exactly is the point? Like, the early!season people are the ones with the power and seemingly a majority. I sometimes (though I am hopefully not too bad about it) get strident when talking about, say, Lost, but that's because I feel that the critical consensus is severely overrating it and so I see my position as underrepresented; there's something much more frustrating about the late!season!lovers!are!wrong!crowd making such a big point about it, because THEY ALREADY HAVE THE APPARENT (though possibly not actual) MAJORITY, WHAT MORE DO THEY WANT?

Ahem.

Usual disclaimer: Note that I love the early seasons too and early season lovers are awesome, and also some late season lovers are jerks. Plus my conspiracy theories about the power dynamics between early- and late-season lovers might not be accurate.

No, no! No need to feel bad! There's a very big difference between acknowledging that there were a lot of Spike/Spuffy fans voting and saying that that ruins things for others or that there's no way you could like an episode like "Something Blue" unless you're a ~shipper. You're good.

I voted for "Dead Things" in the top ten, too. :D

USE A SPELL-CHECKER. THEY COME WITH WORD PROCESSORS

I actually didn't read the original article, and now I'm so glad I didn't. UGH!

I voted for "Dead Things" in the top ten, too. :D

Sweeeeeet. I didn't actually vote, unless I did and forgot.

I actually didn't read the original article, and now I'm so glad I didn't. UGH!

There's something really funny about the way she was plaintively demanding to see "Innocense," when the actual episode "Innocence" was, like #18. ;)

Also did you know that anyone who doesn't think the earlier seasons of BtVS are "better" is automatically "lacking in perspective" about the show?

Pfft. People say that all the time, but honestly, I've never seen anyone put forth an argument as to *why* they're supposedly better. All you get is: They just *are*, damn it! Bah. Easier to watch, perhaps, but to me, that's not better, it's more boring.

I ran away from common boards like whedonesque, c&s and twop back during S7 when posting anything positive about the show would be translated to "flame my ass" by the hive.

You are so right. I have quite a few friends who like the earlier seasons better, but these friends are awesome and realize it's their opinion and don't try to convince me otherwise.

I really would like to read, like, side-by-side essays, one explaining why the earlier seasons are better, one arguing for the later seasons.

I am Wile E.~~Coyote~~ Spuffy, soooooper-genius.

Oh, Hell's Bells. Not again. I don't know how you stand it.

I don't, either.

*sigh*

I'm here via a link on

gabrielleabelle's LJ, hope that is okay.

When ATS was airing, apparently the C/Aers killed ATS. There were plenty of posts all over about it. C/Aers ruined the whole show! How dare they! As if we were all organized and marched on headquarters or something. I guess we had superpowerz then too.

So I totally feel for you. The saddest part is just today, I saw someone talking about how Cordelia ruined ATS by her mere presense and how this person couldn't believe C/A had any fans.

I am just still boggled that these kinds of comments still exist.

(And I love your mood theme. Jackie FTW! I think we should be LJ friends, if that is okay with you?)

When ATS was airing, apparently the C/Aers killed ATS.

This type of thing angers me too! The show did C/A because Whedon, Greenwalt, DB and CC et al. wanted to do C/A. It's not like C/Aers tied the writing team up and made them write a romance against their will.

EXACTLY.

Totally okay!

Ugh. That's so stupid. I ship C/A in theory, though I heartily dislike the execution (except for "You're Welcome," which gives us a glimpse of what an in-character C/A might look like, and it was glorious) because I think they squandered all the potential of the ship.

But the idea that the ship (or, more laughably, the shippers) ruined anything is so ridiculous and immature it’s not even worth addressing.

And Cordy was the best thing about AtS. Before they destroyed her. By the way, I thought of you the other day when we were talking about Joss on [Bad username or site: ”ontd_feminism” @ livejournal.com]. There was a lot of righteous indignation on Charisma’s behalf about the firing thing and also a lot of people going OMG CORDY WAS THE BEST THING ABOUT ATS! It made me grin.

Jackie is my fav! Well, that’s a lie. I also love Hyde and Erica and Kitty and Red…actually, I just love that show to a degree that’s kind of silly for such a silly show. Friend away!

Also word to your description of conception vs. execution of C/A. (You're Welcome made me cry at the end. I don't cry easily. Now, if only someone could explain to me Lindsey's plan.... ;) )

I ship C/A in theory, though I heartily dislike the execution...I think they squandered all the potential of the ship.

Most C/Aers feel this way too. LOL The execution and the squandering of the potential. I mean, C/A had no organic obstacles outside of the curse so they threw in all this crap like Groo and ascending and Cordy being possessed. So much fail. That's why I love the fanfiction and I live off the subtext since the text for them is lamesauce most of the time.

I have to say that I'm really glad that people are FINALLY starting to see the light regarding Charisma's firing. I know it's painful for her but I am so happy she's talking about it more openly. So many people have called her so many ugly names when she first started talking about it but now it seems more people are supporting her instead of the Joss Is God And Can Do No Wrong mindset.

It's so funny because yesterday afternoon, I was talking to a friend about That 70s Show. It seems to rerun on four different channels here so I can always catch an episode. I have to stop watching after Eric leaves though, sometimes before, because I loved Jackie/Hyde. Another ship who's ending broke my heart. I must like the abuse. :)

I love this post and the comments herein. We are awesome.

And JMHO - I still struggle to connect with Buffy as a character in the early seasons too. And I was *15* when I started watching the show (so, about same age as S1 Buffy), and still I related far more with S5-7 Buffy. And I still do. But, you know, I am clearly a freakazoid

I also have never seen a logical analysis for why the early seasons are 'better' either. People usually put phrases like 'more enjoyable', 'stronger Scooby friendship', 'B/A 4-EVA' out there, and seem to forget that those are still *subjective opinions*. I could say that Buffy-the-character is more intellectually interesting in the later seasons because of the gender-bending and the fact she's more anti-hero than role model (and the sheer balls of TPTB to have their heroine *clinically depressed* for an entire season), but it still wouldn't give me the right to claim that the later seasons are objectively ~better. That kind of attitude just perpetuates intolerance. Why is that so hard for people to understand?

Is it July 4th yet?

We really are. And I love how I’ll post something silly about BtVS and all of a sudden it’s like HUNDREDS OF COMMENTS. And I’m always surprised! I never expect it!

You are so, so right. I’ve never seen an explanation, either. The explanation is always, “Everyone knows it is!” or “Spike took over the show!” WTF?

Almost!

Data point: I'm male and was watching the show at ~14-16 and I identified a LOT with s5-7 Buffy, and (basically) not at all with s1-4 Buffy. (Guess the gender-bending really worked! But I kid.)

And word on the clinical depression thing. How did they get away with doing that? I guess since they're still bashed for it, they only sort of did.

Ha, well, I wouldn't identify as a typical feminine female myself (which Buffy's character from S1-4, for all intents and purposes, was), so I'm definitely chalking it up to the gender-bending.

The depression arc, for most people who have experienced depression, is incredibly effective. (There are some detractors, but no one can claim that all people experience depression the same.) It's damn difficult to relate to if you've never been at all depressed though. (I still see complaints like 'Why couldn't Buffy just have some self-respect?' 'Why didn't she direct her anger towards the people who were actually responsible for bringing her back?' ...I mean, really? Wow.) I think the key point here (and in any discussion, really) is that the number of people who hate something *does not erase the people who like it*, no matter how small the latter number may be. Tip #1 in not being a douche.

WE HAS SUPERPOWERS!! *SQUEEEEEEEEEEEEE*

I clicked on the link and read a bit and OMG I'm soooooooo glad I never ever EVER go on that site!

So much small-mindedness! So much Spike/Spuffy hate!!
I don't get how they can be so judgmental over a list asking people for their favourite episodes. It's so totally subjective!! *doesn't get it*

My 6yo daughter is a Spuffy shipper. Just like her mum. *nods*

&hearts

*rolls eyes*

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My Icon is directed at the rude idiots not you!

I figured!

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rolls eyes