So.

[lirazel]

I watched the first few episodes of Caprica. I found myself mostly reading Jezebel articles while I did so, which is a pretty good indication that it wasn't working for me and I wasn't connecting to it.

I was amused by the idea of the Adamas being in the mafia. That was pretty epic. And it's nice enough to look at. But I felt nothing for the characters. Plus, it's got the same over-the-topc serious nature of BSG, except that in BSG it's forgivable because ALL OF HUMANITY HAS BEEN DESTROYED and also Gaius was around to funny things up. Over-the-top grim for its own sake (or to prove how this is Serious! Art!) usually doesn't work for me.

[eta] I don't mind dark or angsty, though: keep in mind that S6 is my favorite BtVS season. I just have to care about the characters themselves not because they're angsty but for other reasons and then I can suffer with them through the angst. If that makes sense.

So now it's your turn to convince me that OMG I HAVE TO WATCH THIS SHOW. That it's worth my time and energy, that there are characters I'll actually care about. Also that it won't make me feel like the show thinks I'm stupid--or a potential terrorist--for being religious (it seemed to be heading that way to me).

Note: James Marsters is hot and evil in it is a good and convincing point, but it isn't enough. There's gotta be more. Also, you know how I am: if there's something I can ship hardcore, I'll probably be there.

Also: more answers to the fic-meme to come! I love you all and will tell you which of your fics I love, never fear!

Comments

[ava-leigh-fitz.livejournal.com]

I am about to have dinner but when I return I shall do my best to convince.

[penny-lane-42.livejournal.com]

Whenever you want, hon!

Also: enjoy dinner! I'm about to have lunch.

[ava-leigh-fitz.livejournal.com]

Right okay. So first of all, I should preface this by saying that I really didn't expect to like Caprica. And it does occasionally get heavy-handed on things, but it is a show finding its feet. It took me some time to get any kind of connection to the characters but once you actually watch what they're going through and how they're handling it it suddenly all makes much more sense? IDK.

Also, since I'm an atheist I sort of tend to gloss over the religious aspects but I find interesting is that they made the STO what it is, a group that believe in a one true god and framing it in generally Abrahamic style. The STO things have actually been a lot more interesting than I expected, given the introduction of Barnabas (James Marsters). What his character does is show that actually the STO itself is a terrorist organisation and there is no way around that. But compare his rhetoric with the ideals of Sister Clarice and you have something really interesting; Clarice is shown more and more often to be someone that sympathises and believes in the One True God but is much more concerned with what comes next than anything in the real world. I'm not describing this very well but basically, what I think I'm trying to say is the handling of the STO is intriguing because it shows the different facets and factions inside what is both an idealistic and terrorist organisation. I don't think it was attempting to show that religiousness was in anyway stupid - almost all of the characters on the show are religious, just that they are part of a polytheistic tradition. In fact the Adamas are shown to be very religious and there is a mourning ceremony in one of the later episodes that is very touching. I think it's more about showing the extremes people will go to.

But the reason I watch the show now, is for the characters - which came as something of a surprise because I thought I was watching to see how the Cylons got made. There's actually a great deal of character progression and psychological reality that I've grown to appreciate, though as a show grounded in the aftermath of a terrorist attack, it's not exactly fluffy bunnies.

I'll start with the Adamas. Like you, I think the Mafia angle was an excellent one to take, but I also really love that their Tauron background allows, however briefly at times, for a look at the way racism is inherent within the 12 Colonies. It doesn't shy away from explicitly showing prejudice and lets them rise above it. In fact, the thing that really made me like Joseph Adama is that he finally just says fuck it, and reclaims his Tauron name and starts to become proud of his heritage. Also Sam Adama with his boyfriend is wonderful.

Tamara is excellent. She starts out as this afraid girl, trapped in the virtual world but oh man, she learns and she stands up for herself but still loves her daddy but grows up at the same time. I didn't really think that I would like her, but the more I think about it, the more I really do.

[ava-leigh-fitz.livejournal.com]

Now for the Graystones. I find them infinitely more interesting as a group of people because the dynamic is absolutely fascinating. What I love is that at the start they are two very loving parents who are increasingly frustrated with their teenage daughter. Likewise, the daughter has no connection to her parents values and wants to be done with it all - and yet, as she runs away, sends a missive to her mother because somewhere, she's still their little girl. It took me a while to warm up to Zoe because, well, I don't know why. But the fact that she is the first Cylon (in this round of history anyway) is the thing that really intrigues me. The way that she's Zoe but she's also herself and she doesn't know how to reconcile that. (Also, her interaction with Phil is adorable and yeah, I think he's wonderful).

And then we have Amanda and Daniel. They are, I think, my favourites without question. First of all, their portrayal of grieving parents is absolutely wonderful and entirely truthful. I also really love that in spite of everything, they love each other without questions. You get to see them, in all these little moments, of just smiling and supporting each other, or actually talking and it's fantastic.
Daniel I think, is ostensibly a good man but shown to do or enact bad things - like stealing the MCP and other stuff later with Zoe that I don't want to spoil you for. He's essentially, when you think about, amoral in that he is a good man and thus he may do bad things but because he's doing them, and because he wants at the end of it is good, they are good by default. It's a little bit like Willow!logic. The way things between he and Amanda play out is really interesting because it is, at the heart of it, about him appearing to move past Zoe's death and Amanda not being able to escape it. Of course, when you know that he's basically been trying to resurrect Zoe it's clear that he has his own issues, but Amanda can't see that, and doesn't know that. He does get taken to a place in the penultimate episode that made me really sort of uncomfortable, because it makes you confront the cold, hard rationalist side of him.

Amanda is so, so interesting to watch. She's a smart, well-educated and erudite woman, unafraid to share her opinions. She's also a loving but exasperated wife and mother who doesn't know where she's going wrong. She's also grieving in the most painful way. They really do ramp up the angst with Amanda, there's no denying it but I'm a sucker for that kind of thing. Her decline is essentially based on all her previously held conceptions, about her daughter, about the world, about her husband, are completely undermined. The thing that I love, watching her, is that for so long, she pushes through things, being supportive and fearless at the same time and yet clearly, utterly broken.

Other than the main characters, the plot is a little hard to pin down but I almost don't mind? Again, it's still finding its feet so I'm a lot easier on it than I would be on an established show. But the plot does allow for some really interesting discussions on the over-proliferation of technology and the damages of the virtual world, grief, the uses and abuses of artificial life and whether artificial life could be the afterlife. Which I think are all really great things to be brought up.

What I really like about the show, is that all of the waste and destruction of BSG is all for the love of two daughters and the hugely different ways in which that's handled. Both Joseph and Daniel start off in the same place: grieving, lost and desperate to get their little girl's back. But after the experiment fails, one ostensibly moves on, buries himself in work and the other holds on, burying himself in the attempt to find her again. That's something I absolutely love, that love and grief are the things that drive this; that for a big epic sci-fi show, it's actually all about the personal drama and motivations of these characters.

TL;DR THE CHARACTERS HAVE REALLY INTERESTING PROGRESSIONS AND THERE'S LOTS OF INTERESTING SUBTEXT ABOUT ARTIFICIAL LIFE AND THE AFTERLIFE AND IMORTALITYSorry, this probably isn't the most coherent thing ever and if there's anything you want clarification on then let me know.

[ava-leigh-fitz.livejournal.com]

...I am entirely surprised I actually had that much to say on the show. I thought I enjoyed it and was surprised that I did but wow, that was a long, long comment.

DURING WHICH I MANAGED TWICE TO FORGET TO MENTION ERIC STOLTZ'S ACTING. BUGGER. Well basically he's fantastic.

[afterthree.livejournal.com]

I find Caprica occasionally tedious like you say, but I'm continuing to watch it because some of the premise intrigues me (though not generally the characters, like you say).

I'm not sure how far you are into it, but the Tamara and V World storylines go in some interesting places and I really want more of that.

[penny-lane-42.livejournal.com]

Yeah, premises generally aren't enough for me--I have to believe in the characters, too.

I have heard that the Tamara stuff gets good--is she a character I could invest in?

[afterthree.livejournal.com]

It's hard to say. Because this show is REALLY premise-based rather than character-based, we don't get a whole lot of Tamara's character. But what happens to her and the worlds she encounters is interesting.

[next_to_normal]

Alas, I don't think I can do much convincing. I'm enjoying it, but certainly not sucked in the way I was with BSG. I'm really only invested in Zoe's plotline, and the rest of it mostly just reeks of untapped potential.

I've been thinking of writing up a post about it, actually. Maybe I'll do that this afternoon.

[penny-lane-42.livejournal.com]

Where is all the praise coming from then? I'm so confused!

I watched an out-of-order episode the other night (where Zoe had to "shoot" the dog?), and I really liked the parts with her in it. The rest not so much.

I would read your post!

[slaymesoftly.livejournal.com]

*nods* Zoe is what brought me back into it.

[alwaysjbj.livejournal.com]

I'm with you, I can't find anything about the show that makes me WANT to watch it...have been watching for JM, but I don't know how much longer I will continue to do so. Not only do I have absolutely no empathy for any of the characters, I actually find the majority of them to be annoying.

[penny-lane-42.livejournal.com]

Um, yes. ;D I have no desire to watch it: it felt like homework.

[slaymesoftly.livejournal.com]

I lost interest after the first couple of episodes, too. Then, when I dipped back in because it was getting close to James time, I found myself more interested. I can't say at this point that the Adama plot line is doing much for me, but then, I'm not a BSG watcher, so the character doesn't mean anything to me. Last week's show, with James being very bad, was very good. It was the mid-season finale (whatever the hell that is) and left us with a lot of cliffhangers. I definitely plan to watch it again when it starts back up. I think, if you give it chance, you will find that some of the characters grow on you a bit. I'm much more invested in Zoe than I was at first.

[penny-lane-42.livejournal.com]

Good to know. That gives me some hope. Thanks!

[anythingbutgrey.livejournal.com]

THERE ARE 60 COMMENTS TO THIS POST. NOW THERE ARE 61.

[penny-lane-42.livejournal.com]

DUDE, ALL OF A SUDDEN MY JOURNAL IS LIKE, POPULAR. LOTS AND LOTS OF COMMENTS. WHAT?

[hkath.livejournal.com]

Well, here's how I fell in love with it: I did something I NEVER do, and just started watching randomly in the middle. I think I tuned into the second half of episode 6, and it hooked me without me knowing anything about what came before. I'm usually that gung-ho person who watches everything in order without missing a single minute, for continuity's sake. I still haven't completely caught up with the first episodes, but I know I love the show. Maybe it started slow?

Of course, I've recently accepted that I'm obsessed with robots, so that might have a lot to do with it ;)

[penny-lane-42.livejournal.com]

Even the thought of starting in the middle stresses me out! How did you do it? ;D

I definitely think it started slow, but I'm one of those people who's willing to invest if I know it'll pay off down the line.

Ha! You know, sex with robots is more common than people think. *nods*

[eilowyn.livejournal.com]

I just left a bunch of word vomit on eowyn_315's journal about the lack of really compelling characters - characters like Starbuck, who are so original and so dynamic that any interaction they have is worthwile, even if it's dealing with something as contrived as the maguffin love triangle with Lee and Dee. I say word vomit because it focused on the concept of awesome characters - and I was not sparing with the word awesome at all. There really aren't any compelling characters that I want to follow on their journey. It's like Angel season 5 without Spike - Cordy's gone, so why should I watch it? Lorne isn't in it enough to compel me to watch it; Fred, Gunn and Wes are a little too Team Angel for me, and Angel? He never did anything for me anyway, so why should I invest time into it?

As clever as the premise and world-building are, it's not enough to get me hooked. I may be fascinated by the theological debate going on, but if I don't care enough about the characters and if James doesn't have much screentime, why should I watch it?

[penny-lane-42.livejournal.com]

I don't actually like Starbuck. But I totally understand what you mean about lack of dynamic characters.

LOVE SQUARE YOU MEAN. Poor Sam! *wibbles*

I actually love Gunn, but he's always been woefully underwritten, so I know what you mean--no Cordy, no Lilah, no Darla--what's the point?

I may be fascinated by the theological debate going on, but if I don't care enough about the characters and if James doesn't have much screentime, why should I watch it?
You are me.

[prophecygirrl.livejournal.com]

I think Tamara might be the right entry point for you, as you've guessed. Her arc is a bit Buffy-esque (a bit, mind you). Starting off as a scared and whiny little girl who finds herself in an incomprehensible situation and ends up seizing her power and her destiny with both hands.

That being said, we've only had hints of her potential, so it may well be I'm reading to much into it. I do love the layered storytelling, and the complexity of the Gteystone relationship. I loved watching them struggle to understand their daughter and their grief, because parenthood is not all hearts and flowers and macaroni art and family picnics as TV would have us believe -- it's pretty damn messy, and can gut you like a fish, but that's the risk you take when your heart is really in it. They're doing that bit really well. I do love the Amanda actress, so we may just be differing on that one. Another interesting question for me is how do the best of intentions, or a series of small and big incidents, struggles, failures, coincidences, lead up to the civilzation's downfall.

We like what we like, though -- don't sweat it if it's not for you. Fandom should be fun.

[penny-lane-42.livejournal.com]

Starting off as a scared and whiny little girl who finds herself in an incomprehensible situation and ends up seizing her power and her destiny with both hands.
I like this!

it's pretty damn messy, and can gut you like a fish, but that's the risk you take when your heart is really in it. Beautifully said, and I know what you mean. Well, I don't, because I'm not a parent, but I can guess. ;D

Another interesting question for me is how do the best of intentions, or a series of small and big incidents, struggles, failures, coincidences, lead up to the civilzation's downfall.
I'm absolutely mad about that idea, too, but it isn't enough for me if I can't connect to the characters, you know?

That's usually how I know when to stop watching a show--when it starts to feel like homework and there's no joy. Fandom should definitely be about fun.

[alocalmaximum.blogspot.com (from livejournal.com)]

I haven't started the show yet, besides the pilot which I liked (I plan to, but probably after the season is done). I am a bit surprise that it's all doom and gloom though. Is Jane not bringing the funny?

[sarahlovesa.livejournal.com]

Arghhhhhhhh! A show with JM in it and I am reading VERY mixed reviews. So do I hope it comes on the tv here or do I not?! I never really saw BSG so would I really get the new show? Anyway, my obsession is more for Spike than JM, fab as he is. I have to think carefully as I do take certain kinds of shows very (too?!) seriously and find myself emotionally attached and then I HAVE to watch it which can be a pain. Do I want to do that to myself again? Is Caprica worth the effort? I will have to ponder that as I go and make an omelette