So.

[lirazel]

I watched the first few episodes of Caprica. I found myself mostly reading Jezebel articles while I did so, which is a pretty good indication that it wasn't working for me and I wasn't connecting to it.

I was amused by the idea of the Adamas being in the mafia. That was pretty epic. And it's nice enough to look at. But I felt nothing for the characters. Plus, it's got the same over-the-topc serious nature of BSG, except that in BSG it's forgivable because ALL OF HUMANITY HAS BEEN DESTROYED and also Gaius was around to funny things up. Over-the-top grim for its own sake (or to prove how this is Serious! Art!) usually doesn't work for me.

[eta] I don't mind dark or angsty, though: keep in mind that S6 is my favorite BtVS season. I just have to care about the characters themselves not because they're angsty but for other reasons and then I can suffer with them through the angst. If that makes sense.

So now it's your turn to convince me that OMG I HAVE TO WATCH THIS SHOW. That it's worth my time and energy, that there are characters I'll actually care about. Also that it won't make me feel like the show thinks I'm stupid--or a potential terrorist--for being religious (it seemed to be heading that way to me).

Note: James Marsters is hot and evil in it is a good and convincing point, but it isn't enough. There's gotta be more. Also, you know how I am: if there's something I can ship hardcore, I'll probably be there.

Also: more answers to the fic-meme to come! I love you all and will tell you which of your fics I love, never fear!

Comments

[ava-leigh-fitz.livejournal.com]

I am about to have dinner but when I return I shall do my best to convince.

[penny-lane-42.livejournal.com]

Whenever you want, hon!

Also: enjoy dinner! I'm about to have lunch.

[afterthree.livejournal.com]

I find Caprica occasionally tedious like you say, but I'm continuing to watch it because some of the premise intrigues me (though not generally the characters, like you say).

I'm not sure how far you are into it, but the Tamara and V World storylines go in some interesting places and I really want more of that.

[penny-lane-42.livejournal.com]

Yeah, premises generally aren't enough for me--I have to believe in the characters, too.

I have heard that the Tamara stuff gets good--is she a character I could invest in?

[afterthree.livejournal.com]

It's hard to say. Because this show is REALLY premise-based rather than character-based, we don't get a whole lot of Tamara's character. But what happens to her and the worlds she encounters is interesting.

[penny-lane-42.livejournal.com]

Well, then, that's probably the reason I'm not caring for it. Interesting. Thanks for the input--I really appreciate it!

[next_to_normal]

Alas, I don't think I can do much convincing. I'm enjoying it, but certainly not sucked in the way I was with BSG. I'm really only invested in Zoe's plotline, and the rest of it mostly just reeks of untapped potential.

I've been thinking of writing up a post about it, actually. Maybe I'll do that this afternoon.

[ava-leigh-fitz.livejournal.com]

Right okay. So first of all, I should preface this by saying that I really didn't expect to like Caprica. And it does occasionally get heavy-handed on things, but it is a show finding its feet. It took me some time to get any kind of connection to the characters but once you actually watch what they're going through and how they're handling it it suddenly all makes much more sense? IDK.

Also, since I'm an atheist I sort of tend to gloss over the religious aspects but I find interesting is that they made the STO what it is, a group that believe in a one true god and framing it in generally Abrahamic style. The STO things have actually been a lot more interesting than I expected, given the introduction of Barnabas (James Marsters). What his character does is show that actually the STO itself is a terrorist organisation and there is no way around that. But compare his rhetoric with the ideals of Sister Clarice and you have something really interesting; Clarice is shown more and more often to be someone that sympathises and believes in the One True God but is much more concerned with what comes next than anything in the real world. I'm not describing this very well but basically, what I think I'm trying to say is the handling of the STO is intriguing because it shows the different facets and factions inside what is both an idealistic and terrorist organisation. I don't think it was attempting to show that religiousness was in anyway stupid - almost all of the characters on the show are religious, just that they are part of a polytheistic tradition. In fact the Adamas are shown to be very religious and there is a mourning ceremony in one of the later episodes that is very touching. I think it's more about showing the extremes people will go to.

But the reason I watch the show now, is for the characters - which came as something of a surprise because I thought I was watching to see how the Cylons got made. There's actually a great deal of character progression and psychological reality that I've grown to appreciate, though as a show grounded in the aftermath of a terrorist attack, it's not exactly fluffy bunnies.

I'll start with the Adamas. Like you, I think the Mafia angle was an excellent one to take, but I also really love that their Tauron background allows, however briefly at times, for a look at the way racism is inherent within the 12 Colonies. It doesn't shy away from explicitly showing prejudice and lets them rise above it. In fact, the thing that really made me like Joseph Adama is that he finally just says fuck it, and reclaims his Tauron name and starts to become proud of his heritage. Also Sam Adama with his boyfriend is wonderful.

Tamara is excellent. She starts out as this afraid girl, trapped in the virtual world but oh man, she learns and she stands up for herself but still loves her daddy but grows up at the same time. I didn't really think that I would like her, but the more I think about it, the more I really do.

[ava-leigh-fitz.livejournal.com]

Now for the Graystones. I find them infinitely more interesting as a group of people because the dynamic is absolutely fascinating. What I love is that at the start they are two very loving parents who are increasingly frustrated with their teenage daughter. Likewise, the daughter has no connection to her parents values and wants to be done with it all - and yet, as she runs away, sends a missive to her mother because somewhere, she's still their little girl. It took me a while to warm up to Zoe because, well, I don't know why. But the fact that she is the first Cylon (in this round of history anyway) is the thing that really intrigues me. The way that she's Zoe but she's also herself and she doesn't know how to reconcile that. (Also, her interaction with Phil is adorable and yeah, I think he's wonderful).

And then we have Amanda and Daniel. They are, I think, my favourites without question. First of all, their portrayal of grieving parents is absolutely wonderful and entirely truthful. I also really love that in spite of everything, they love each other without questions. You get to see them, in all these little moments, of just smiling and supporting each other, or actually talking and it's fantastic.
Daniel I think, is ostensibly a good man but shown to do or enact bad things - like stealing the MCP and other stuff later with Zoe that I don't want to spoil you for. He's essentially, when you think about, amoral in that he is a good man and thus he may do bad things but because he's doing them, and because he wants at the end of it is good, they are good by default. It's a little bit like Willow!logic. The way things between he and Amanda play out is really interesting because it is, at the heart of it, about him appearing to move past Zoe's death and Amanda not being able to escape it. Of course, when you know that he's basically been trying to resurrect Zoe it's clear that he has his own issues, but Amanda can't see that, and doesn't know that. He does get taken to a place in the penultimate episode that made me really sort of uncomfortable, because it makes you confront the cold, hard rationalist side of him.

Amanda is so, so interesting to watch. She's a smart, well-educated and erudite woman, unafraid to share her opinions. She's also a loving but exasperated wife and mother who doesn't know where she's going wrong. She's also grieving in the most painful way. They really do ramp up the angst with Amanda, there's no denying it but I'm a sucker for that kind of thing. Her decline is essentially based on all her previously held conceptions, about her daughter, about the world, about her husband, are completely undermined. The thing that I love, watching her, is that for so long, she pushes through things, being supportive and fearless at the same time and yet clearly, utterly broken.

Other than the main characters, the plot is a little hard to pin down but I almost don't mind? Again, it's still finding its feet so I'm a lot easier on it than I would be on an established show. But the plot does allow for some really interesting discussions on the over-proliferation of technology and the damages of the virtual world, grief, the uses and abuses of artificial life and whether artificial life could be the afterlife. Which I think are all really great things to be brought up.

What I really like about the show, is that all of the waste and destruction of BSG is all for the love of two daughters and the hugely different ways in which that's handled. Both Joseph and Daniel start off in the same place: grieving, lost and desperate to get their little girl's back. But after the experiment fails, one ostensibly moves on, buries himself in work and the other holds on, burying himself in the attempt to find her again. That's something I absolutely love, that love and grief are the things that drive this; that for a big epic sci-fi show, it's actually all about the personal drama and motivations of these characters.

TL;DR THE CHARACTERS HAVE REALLY INTERESTING PROGRESSIONS AND THERE'S LOTS OF INTERESTING SUBTEXT ABOUT ARTIFICIAL LIFE AND THE AFTERLIFE AND IMORTALITYSorry, this probably isn't the most coherent thing ever and if there's anything you want clarification on then let me know.

[penny-lane-42.livejournal.com]

Where is all the praise coming from then? I'm so confused!

I watched an out-of-order episode the other night (where Zoe had to "shoot" the dog?), and I really liked the parts with her in it. The rest not so much.

I would read your post!

[ava-leigh-fitz.livejournal.com]

I'll echo that, it is really premise-based but I've actually found the character development kind of astounding. Tamara hasn't had many scenes but the development has been really interesting and I think a little balance between her storyline and the Zoe storyline would be nice. But overall, I think characterisation wise, it's got so much better. I think it's all about the heart, about grief, about each of these people are affected and what it makes them do.

[ava-leigh-fitz.livejournal.com]

...I am entirely surprised I actually had that much to say on the show. I thought I enjoyed it and was surprised that I did but wow, that was a long, long comment.

DURING WHICH I MANAGED TWICE TO FORGET TO MENTION ERIC STOLTZ'S ACTING. BUGGER. Well basically he's fantastic.

[next_to_normal]

I don't know. I haven't actually seen a lot of praise, but really the only reactions I've read about it are on Alan Sepinwall's blog, so maybe people are praising elsewhere.

The battle of wills when Daniel tests Zoe is probably the most compelling stuff of the whole season. I do find her relationship with Philomon to be adorable (yet kind of creepy), but like I said... anything not Zoe (or James Marsters)? Zzzzzzz.

[penny-lane-42.livejournal.com]

Wow. I feel like your thoughts on this show might actually be more interesting than the show itself, so how's about I just climb inside your brain for a while?

At first I didn't like Zoe because I hate the cultural trope of the kid always knowing better than the parents and blaming everything on them instead of taking responsiblility for her own actions...but! I feel like that's not where they were going at all, and they just set it up that way so that she could then learn. Right? Because I'm a lot more open to that.

It's a little bit like Willow!logic. Trufax: I kind of hate Willow!logic a lot. Just sayin'. ;D

As for Amanda, you make her sound wonderful, but watching the first couple of episodes I thought the actress was...not so great? Maybe I was wrong or she gets better or something? Or maybe it's just irrational dislike on my part.

I DO LOVE SUBTEXT.

I love you for writing this, because I love all the little things you see. I will let you know what I think if I decide to give it another chance!

[anythingbutgrey.livejournal.com]

IZI THIS IS LIKE AN ESSAY.

which is interesting because i don't really... like caprica though i wish i did.

[penny-lane-42.livejournal.com]

I think it's more about showing the extremes people will go to. That I can live with, since, obviously, a lot of people do terrible things in the name of religion (or in the name of anything else--I'm endlessly fascinated by the ways in which people use any excuse they can find to excuse their own selfishness--whether it's religion or nationalism or some tauted ideal).

Also, I think part of the reason I quit watching was that I didn't like Sister Clarice and I couldn't figure out if the show wanted me to like her or not. Which made for some dissonance.

In fact, the thing that really made me like Joseph Adama is that he finally just says fuck it, and reclaims his Tauron name and starts to become proud of his heritage. This would make me like it a lot. And I'm always up for a race discussion.

I've heard some interesting things about Tamara that made me think she could be my entry point.

[penny-lane-42.livejournal.com]

The fact that you you have this much to say about it really does make me think it might be worth taking another look at. Thanks, hon!

I KIND OF LOVE THAT YOU JUST SAID BUGGER. YOU BRIT, YOU.

[penny-lane-42.livejournal.com]

I've seen a lot of praise scattered about. *shrugs*

That was compelling. I actually put my computer down and watched that part.

[ava-leigh-fitz.livejournal.com]

It took me ages to work out Clarice and I really think that was a huge fault on the show's part. I think what it is is that her motives aren't pure, I mean, she steals information from the Graystone lab, she uses Amanda but when you put her up against Barnabas, though she's just as ruthless, her reasoning and methods are a lot more sound? IDK. I think it was an attempt at a grey area that they didn't quite handle right.

I honestly think they should focus a bit more on the anti-Tauron prejudice because it's so interesting. Also as I said, there's the Tauron mourning ritual which I found fascinating - celebrate your different cultures show!

Tamara is actually a good place to start I think, but there's not a lot of screentime devoted to her at the moment because the Zoe storyline is much more involved with everyone else.

[penny-lane-42.livejournal.com]

IZI'S AWESOME LIKE THAT.

I remember how excited you were for it! I'm sad that it hasn't pleased you! Though I suspect that I might not ever like it even if Izi's awesomeness makes it sound awesome.

[penny-lane-42.livejournal.com]

Okay, that makes me feel better. And I love that you're one of those people who can say, "This just doesn't work." I feel like in fandom I encounter a lot of people who want to fanwank everything and who insist that everything makes sense if you only think about it right and I'm all "NO! SOMETIMES BAD WRITING IS BAD, YOU KNOW?"

I've clearly had some run-ins with such people lately. *sigh*

[ava-leigh-fitz.livejournal.com]

That's totally cool by me!

I didn't like Zoe either because yeah no, that is not a trope I care for at all. But I think that's the difference between her and the Zoe avatar, in that the avatar is much more likeable because she genuinely has things to struggle against.

Oh Willow!logic. It's never a good thing but I always find it interesting to watch because playing around with morality is the best thing ever.

I can't remember how I felt about Amanda initially but I have grown to really, really like her because she doesn't feel like a trope to me? She's an amalgamation of tropes, just like real people are (that is, after all, why tropes exist, as exaggerated portions of personality/behaviour). I think she does get better acting wise but mainly because she's given a lot more to do.

SUBTEXT IS MY PLAYGROUND.

That's absolutely fine, any time m'dear. Whether you do or don't this was definitely something of an eye opening experience for me in terms of whoa, I really like this show apparently!

[ava-leigh-fitz.livejournal.com]

I KNOW I KNOW WTF I DO NOT UNDERSTAND WHEN I GOT FEELINGS ABOUT THIS SHOW.

It's weird. I honestly thought I watched it because I liked robots. Who knew I liked the super flawed people too?

[penny-lane-42.livejournal.com]

I like that--the things to struggle against.

I think the reason I hate Willow!logic so much when I usually like to watch artists play around with morality (but not in real life, so much) is that I feel like I was supposed to forgive Willow for everything because she's cute and sweet, and I'm all, "No. I still hold her accountable." I feel that I can safely assume that this is not the case in what's-his-face's case, so I'd be more open to it. :D

Oooh! No trope is good!

[ava-leigh-fitz.livejournal.com]

If you do, do let me know whether it improved. I think the show definitely got better towards the end, again because it sort of found its rhythm and was out of the 'i'm explaining now' phase. I see you saw the Daniel testing Zoe thing below and that was what I was talking about when I said that Daniel did something that made me uncomfortable. Because it was so difficult to watch and the motives were so twisted up and it was just a great bit of writing.

I LOVE THAT WHILE WE CAN'T SAY 'ASS' WITHOUT SOUNDING RIDICULOUS, WE HAVE BUGGER, BOLLOCKS AND BLOODY. SOMETIMES I LOVE MY COUNTRY.