lirazel | Two things you might enjoy if you're of the Whedon-ly inclined...

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Two things you might enjoy if you're of the Whedon-ly inclined...

1. I'm having a very interesting discussion here regarding Angel and his morality. And I think I'm ticking someone off. I'd love y'all's thought on whether or not I'm being insensitive and/or wanky--it's so hard to gauge tone on the internets! I'm Lirazel, obvs. Scroll down a bit until people start talking about whether Angel is redeemable. Also: spoilers for Twilightgate!

2.

redsilverchains and I have been having a blast making up fake plotlines for the hypothetical 7 seasons of Firefly right here. I feel like I want to turn this into a meme somehow and get a bunch of people in on it, but I'm not sure how to organize it. Thoughts?

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WORD, Lauren. So much word. You're doing a great job of expressing your opinion and, trust me, you're doing so very eloquently.

Haha! Thank you! I feel like whenever I post anything that isn't squee over there, I end up ticking people off and getting into arguments, and then I start second guessing myself: am I wrong? am I being ugly? does everyone hate me?

I guess I should have learned the lesson by now that whedonesque is for squee. But I want to talk about these things! The one problem about our lovely little corner of Buffydom is that most people agree with me about most things. I love having conversations with those who don't.

Anyway, thank you for setting my mind at ease. You're so lovely!

I just replied to you in that thread, btw. Great discussion! Let's keep it going. :)

I love you for saying what you did! Yay!

Replied again. :)

Your The Dark Knight quote got me thinking. GAH - I love that ending. It never fails to get me.

Awesome! It's a great movie.

I think I'm doing an awesome job of not saying, "Angel's brooding over his own actions bores me to tears, and the idea of him being with Buffy romantically makes me want to scream, and Spike, honestly, is in a much more morally secure place." Right?

*nods* Indeed. You're masking your frustrations well.

Well, whether I like Angel or not (or how much I like Spike) is completely irrelevant to the conversation, really. And I honestly like Angel's moral problems better in theory than in execution, but whatever!

This discussion is fascinating and I think you're doing an excellent job stating your position.

It's been really interesting to me, especially because I hadn't verbalized a lot of this stuff before. I've always been one of those people who figures out what I believe through writing it, and that's happening her.

And thank you for the vote of confidence! I appreciate it!

Really interesting discussion. In the past week or so, I've looked through some of your posts, and I've often been amazed at how similar your opinions seem to mine. And especially with Angel, though I do think you're nicer to him than I am. I just don't like him, because of how he makes decisions that he expects everyone to abide by. (My guess is that being an author might have something to do with it - I don't have to see things from his point of view, so I choose not to. Something an author doesn't really have the luxury to do. Well, unless they don't care about characterization.)

Now, don't get me wrong, I think Angel is a pretty fascinating character, but as a person (well, vampire) I just don't like him at all. And I have a hard time reading Angel character meta because they all seem use the hero thing as a jumping off point, when I think that Angel starting to help people is entirely incidental - after falling for Buffy he couldn't go back to keeping himself apart from the human race, so instead he did something that would make him more worthy in her eyes. (I do think he moves away from that as the seasons pass, but to me Angel isn't a hero because his motive for it isn't altruistic.)

I'm really curious about your opinion on Angel/Cordelia. (My take on it is that I think Cordelia would have been perfect for Angel because she wouldn't take his crap and she wouldn't let him mope. But then they went and ruined it by changing her, so that those qualities that made her so perfect for him were...okay, maybe not ruined, but certainly diluted. They tried to make it Buffy/Angel 2.0 when what they really needed was to get as far away from the putting-each-other-on-pedestals thing as they could.)

A confession: I don't like him either: I find him boring and patronizing. Except when he's interacting with Spike, Darla, (early season) Cordy, or Connor. Basically, people who won't take his crap (but more on that anon).

However, I also hate character bashing myself, so I give him the benefit of the doubt. Plus, yes, I've written him on occasion and then I do have to see things from his POV. Plus-plus, when I'm having a conversation on whedonesque (*grumblegrumble*), I have to assume that everyone looooves him, so I can't start from a point of "Angel's lame. His hair grows straight up, and he's bloody stupid," you know?

And I have a hard time reading Angel character meta because they all seem use the hero thing as a jumping off point, when I think that Angel starting to help people is entirely incidental - after falling for Buffy he couldn't go back to keeping himself apart from the human race, so instead he did something that would make him more worthy in her eyes. (I do think he moves away from that as the seasons pass, but to me Angel isn't a hero because his motive for it isn't altruistic.)
YEEEES. Just...yes. Plus he's just so boring, isn't he? Angelus is way more fun.

As for your Cordy/Angel thoughts THEY ARE EXACTLY LIKE MINE. EXACTLY. (Sorry, I use capslocks a lot!) Exactly.

Dude, you friended me at some point and I missed it? After this conversation, I definitely have to friend you back!

Pretty much the only times I genuinely like Angel are when he's as un-Angellike as possible, like when he's Angelus, or that season 1 dance sequence. Basically anytime DB gets to be more like himself and less like Angel. There's something so hypocritical and sanctimonious about him that it just puts me right off.

Dude, you friended me at some point and I missed it? After this conversation, I definitely have to friend you back!
I did! I think I commented to that effect on a fic entry or something. I've gotta warn you, though, I hardly ever talk about Buffy anymore. It was the show that got me into fandom, onto Livejournal and reading fic, but I think that because it was my start and my only fandom for the first few years, I talked myself out about it. At least in my own journal, I still love reading and discussing it in other people's journals. It's weird.

But hey, I saw you were watching Farscape. First time? How far in are you? (I do an annual Farscape rewatch thing, and even though I've never really been involved in the fandom except for making the odd icon and picspam, it's the one show that feels like my true constant in fandom, because it's followed me almost as long as Buffy. However, because the immersion was less complete, I have yet to burn out on it).

Dorky!Angel (and petty!Angel) are pretty much made of awesome. Even though I don't watch it with anything approaching regularity, I'm a big fan of DB on Bones, so it's gotta be the writing.

And Angel is totally sanctimonious.

I totally understand about first fandoms. I've left mine far, far behind though I still think back on it with fondness.

Yup! First time with Farscape. I'm only about halfway through the 2nd season (I'm at the three parter with the princess), and even though I really like it, for some reason it's slow going with me, so it might be a bit before I completely finish it. I'm excited that there are already people on my flist who love it, though; I'm certain at some point I'll start talking about it a lot! The characters are fantastic.

Oh, I think your arguments are right on the money. I'm not one to self-pimp (but don't feel so bad in this case, since most of the posts aren't by me), but I think you'd really enjoy some of the discussions about Angel (http://www.teaattheford.net/nook.php?id=24) over at Tea At The Ford.

Yay! More agreement!

And thanks so much for the link: I've tried to poke around at Tea at the Ford before but found it really hard to navigate, so I'm glad to be led right to something interesting. Again: thanks!

Yeah, it's not designed for people looking for a very specific topic: it's set up to encourage not-quite-aimless wandering. That was a deliberate choice, but unfortunately I do think it puts off quite a few people who might otherwise enjoy the place, just because it's so unfamiliar and confusing at first. (There is actually a logic to it, but probably not clear to newcomers.)

Anyway, happy browsing!

That explains a lot, actually, since I've always been sure there would be things I liked there, but I just didn't know how to find it. Thanks for the info!

That Firefly conversation is making me slightly teary...

*sniffles*

(In other news, I totally agree with you on Whedonesquey stuff.)

It's almost an exquisite form of torture, isn't it? THINK OF THE AWESOME THAT MIGHT HAVE EXISTED.

(Yay! I'm glad!)

TANGENTY.

I saw this and thought of you.

This all I have.

Also, because I lie and that isn't all, I would so partake/pimp out your Buffy Summer fic-a-thon thing. Just saying.

Edited 2010-01-21 02:22 (UTC)

I LOVE tangents! And I LOVE that! I...may have to take it for future use. Just in case I one day get tired of Red Forman squirting whipped cream on his head!

I would love you forever if you did! Not that I wouldn't always love you forever but YOU + BUFFY would equal EPIC.

TANGENTY.

I saw this and thought of you!

YAY IB ICONS. I can never have enough, no maam.

and the idea of him being with Buffy romantically makes me want to scream

Yeah, pretty much.

I don't think you're being offensive to anyone, apart from sundry Angel-worshippers who believe him to be the height of moral goodyness. And those people are worth ticking off, wouldn't you say? ;)

I didn't know Joss was planning 7 seasons for Firefly. Oh the sorrow...

And those people are worth ticking off, wouldn't you say? ;) You're such a bad influence! I'm trying to be good!

I didn't know, either, until

redsilverchains linked me to that article. Isn't it the saddest thing ever?

I know I'm incredibly late to this but YES to #2 :D If you do this, do cross-post all over the place.

Isn't it great? I'm going to try to figure out a way to meme-ify it....

#1 *thumbs-up* Hey, you sparked up some likewise intelligent posts and got a few rethinks on the character. Very cool.

I did (and still do) like Buffy/Angel but only in a nostalgic, tragic, it-was-my-first-grownup-ship way. I like them as a *doomed* ship. Unlike Buffy/Spike when there came a point that I was watching the show FOR it. And Spike is ALWAYS the man I imagine her reuniting with after S7. Always. (/ship ramble)

Just curious, assuming the comics don’t exist, how do you see Angel veering towards the redeemable side, post NFA?

#2 *Veronica Mars voice and finger-steepling* Eeeeeeeexcellent!

Maybe it could be in ‘ficathon’ format, only the ‘prompts’ would be the snippets from the ‘episodes’: a title, a cool quote, a shippy/touching/funny moment.

Like, someone comments with “I wept buckets in ‘Twilight’s Last Gleaming’” and someone replies with “Oh my gosh, yes when Mal and Zoe raised that tattered Browncoat flag!” and then someone else with “And when the camera cut to Wash looking on from the bridge and carrying baby Noah!”

Or someone starts with a cracky ‘prompt’ like, “Hey, remember when Simon lost a(nother) bet to Jayne and had to wear that floppy-ears hat when he was Kaylee’s date to the Mechanics' Convention?” and then someone replies with “Yeah, and then that goofy guy (gawd, I still can’t believe that was Enver Gjokaj!) wanted to buy it from Simon, who was only too (fiendishly) happy to get rid of it! And Jayne spent the rest of the episode chasing Enver around and he turned out to be a fanboy who had his own live band version of ‘The Man They Call Jayne’…”

Or for something simpler, it could be just a good old meme like: “List your top five favorite moments from season 2-6 of Firefly”, “Top ten lines of River that foreshadowed the season 5 finale”, “Five moments of Mal/Inara that broke my shipper heart…and five that put it back together”. And interested fans on your flist play along and then post it and make up their own.

Thank you! I appreciate the encouragment! I always second-guess my tone on things like this.

I absolutely loved what they did with the relationship in S2: it made for great plot and emotion. But in S1 Angel drives me crazy, and I have zero interest in doomed love, so S3 was torture. TORTURE. But I totally get why it would appeal to you in the nostalgic sense. Even though I'm ridiculously glad that Spike is the one you imagine her with later. Me, too! ALWAYS.

And I know exactly what you mean about watching the show for Spike/Buffy.

Huh. About Angel...I guess I think that post-NFA, he had two options. The first is to continue what he was doing: making decisions for the greater good and continuing to take morally questionable actions. If he did that, I would hope that Spike (and Gunn if he survived, poor guy!) would part ways with him, because I don't want my boys corrupted by stupid Angel! *pout* I can definitely see him taking that route.

The second would be to realize that he isn't above everyone else and to either go back to saving individuals as he originally did with Angel Investigations (which I honestly can't see him doing for a while considering that it would hurt to much to be reminded of all the people he's lost), perhaps traveling around to do it, or just trying to live a very quiet life, maybe doing something actually constructive for a change (but I do think that's outside his personality: he needs to always be SAVING PEOPLE and feel like he's special while doing it). I think in that case, he could definitely attain redemption, and when the final battle did come around, he'd be on the right side.

ENVER!

Sorry. I'm mildly obsessed.

Dude! Did you read that Sean Maher tried out for the part of Victor on DH? I mean, I think Sean's very talented (and would have made quite a good doll), but I am sooooo glad that Joss hired Enver.

I like your ideas! I think I might have to implement one shortly....

You are very cool. Have I mentioned that?

“OMG a pairing that Did It onscreen and it isn’t gross!” That was my awkward adolescent self’s reaction to S2 Buffy/Angel.

And I so get you about S3 B/A! The only reason I liked it was the Buffy novels (which were my introduction to the series) that made their together-but-not-togetherness a lot more sympathetic than I ever saw onscreen

Oh, I like the idea of Angel getting away for a while, just coming to terms with everything and everyone he lost. After that, who knows? It’s could wise him up a lot. There’s still Connor out there too (I think daddy!Angel is so much better on David than wangsty!Angel).

The first option resembles what he did as Twilight, though, don’t you think?
Though from what I’ve read, Twilight goes way, way over morally questionable (killing Slayers??).

He did? Well I love Simon like whoa, but you’re right…ENVER!

I bet they would’ve found some way to write Sean in as a Doll/client/programmer and he’d have been great. Sigh…

Makes me blush when you do! Right back at you, ma’am.

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