lirazel | exchange thoughts

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exchange thoughts

I've been seeing a lot of discussion on my ~~flist~~ reading page about fannish exchanges and people having really terrible experiences with them and it makes me so sad! Apparently there are a bunch of people out there with really terrible behavior who are ruining exchanges for other people, enough so that fans avoid specific exchanges or even exchanges in general even though they enjoy them in theory.

I myself have never had those kinds of negative experiences with exchanges. I have often received fic that was kind of meh, but it doesn't bother me much--I am extraordinarily picky about fic anyway, so it's no surprise that sometimes people don't write stuff that knocks my socks off!--but I have always tried to be gracious when I comment: to thank them for writing for me, to find a few things in the fic that I genuinely do love. I think I have done a competent job with this. I always want to make my writer feel appreciated because I genuinely love the gift economy so much! I love that someone else loves this fandom I love enough to write for it! There's so much to celebrate even if the fic didn't work for me!

I remember when I first started participating in exchanges lo these many years ago (2009ish? Maybe?), I was disappointed in the fics I received and I was (inwardly!) like, "Exchanges are a disappointment!"

But somehow I managed to shift my focus from receiving to writing and started to view exchanges primarily as mechanisms that push me to write things I would not otherwise write. Once I started looking at it that way, all my disappointment evaporated, and I still just flat-out enjoy exchanges.

But after hearing some of y'all's experiences, I don't blame you for your negative feelings about exchanges! Y'all have dealt with some crap!

I am interested in knowing whether any of you think there are some administrative things that could cut down on this kind of bad behavior. Are there things that those running the exchange could do differently that would make a difference?

Or is this, to your mind, an entirely attitude-based problem, just a case of people being jerks? I am genuinely interested in your thoughts about this!

Alternately, you can complain here about bad exchange behavior or tell me about how much you love exchanges or a specific great experience you've had with one!

I myself love them--I just really, really love how I always end up writing something I never would have written under my own steam. I've written some of my very favorite pieces for exchanges! Even some that didn't get much attention comment-wise just make me so happy! (For instance, my Seraphina fic has never had a wide readership, but I love that fic! I'm so glad I wrote it!)

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I haven't had bad experiences with exchanges either, except ones that were my own fault (wasn't mindful enough and hit someone's DNW, ouch), and the occasional whingey feeling when my fic didn't get as much attention as I wanted (which happens with fics outside exchanges too). I mean, yes, I've had recipients who didn't comment, and that's annoying. But I write for my own pleasure as well as to please the recipient, so if they don't comment, I'm still glad I wrote something. Also, I'm in awe of how much work has gone into making exchanges what they are, and all the effort people put out to run them and to make sure everyone has a gift (pinch hitters, man!). They make me feel hopeful about humanity, overall.

Also, almost all of the gifts I've received were good faith efforts even if I didn't care for them.

Same. It's that good faith that I can praise, even if the fic wasn't really very good.

and the occasional whingey feeling when my fic didn't get as much attention as I wanted (which happens with fics outside exchanges too)

I think every fanfic writer has this feeling! I definitely do.

Also, I'm in awe of how much work has gone into making exchanges what they are, and all the effort people put out to run them and to make sure everyone has a gift (pinch hitters, man!). They make me feel hopeful about humanity, overall.

Yes indeed!

I'm curious what kind of bad experiences people have had. . . Does it seem more like people being oblivious to norms or deliberately cruel?

like you, I've mostly always seen exchanges as a motivation to write something and on a very few occasions I've had a recipient not acknowledge my work, I've honestly gotten more than I've given out of the last few exchanges (ie I defaulted but still got great stories.)

It sounds like a mixture of both? A lot of people complaining about the fics they received? Or having extremely high expectations and then throwing fits if they aren't met?

Oh glory be, don't ppl know that's what anon communities like Yuletide _ coal or fail fandom anon are for??

I am not really a fan of those spaces but it's easy for me to avoid, and I can't fathom being rude to a writer because you didn't like your gift. Talk about ruining it for everyone.

Ha--someone mentioned FFA explicitly; I guess they weren't aware of its reputation. I too steer clear of those places because I know what they're like and I have no interest in that atmosphere. But if you didn't know, it would be a very unpleasant experience.

Oh yeah, I guess I would just assume that anon communities are where people go to be mean and steer clear -- but yeah, that could happen by accident or if someone's fic is mentioned specifically, a friend might tell then about because 'I thought you'd want to know.'

The only exchange I really ever did was Yuletide and *sigh* It was over a decade ago, but I really have to say that the YT chat soured me on the whole thing. I'm not sure if it's a case of mass hysteria or what, but ultimately it turned out not to be a good place to be especially year-round. Even if end of the year wouldn't be a terribly time for my anymore, I probably wouldn't do it.

I don't think that there's anything administrative anyone could do (aside from the fact that some of the new management were in that group...) though, it's just not my scene.

(And I do have deadline issues anyway, which is a contributing factor.)

You're the second person to bring up the YT chat, which I have never participated in, but yeah, it sounds like a not great environment. The only YT community stuff I participate in (besides posting an author letter) is the promo post for fandoms. Which by its very nature is going to be a positive place.

December is a really hard time for a lot of people. If there were a big equivalent summer exchange, I think that would pull in a completely different set of people.

What is Yuletide chat?

I honestly don't know!

I think maybe it was an IRC chat in the old days, and might have migrated to discord? But not sure

Back in the day it used to be an IRC chatroom that was active year round where people also hung out year round. It happened what generally always happens in these kinds of communities when there isn't a steady influx of people popping in and out (this can go one of two ways, the YT chat did not end up the good way).

But even aside from the year-round population, the chat is... Idk, as I said, I think it's some kind of mass hysteria. If you don't treat you're bad, if you only write 1k you're not living up to it while at the same time doing a whole toxic positivity that of course it's enough and it just....it just soured me on the whole thing.

I think it's a discord these days, but I'm not sure about the population and who all is there. I don't have time at the end of the year either way.

Oh yes, I remember people talking about the culture of pressure to participate to the max!

Yes, that is a good description of it, thank you!

Of course, no one would actually think it is like that even when you are in, but hindsight is 20/20 there.

I also remember that there was a lot of discussion of privilege at the time (this was pre-2010, so these were the days of the social justice warriors and the beginnings of the purity movement) and that it was very hard for them that I didn't get it - because all of them were American/Anglo-Saxon background and while I'm white, I'm continental European and our privileges do effectively look a bit different (it does not confer me any advantage to be Christian for example, let alone Protestant (ETA: which I'm not, I'm a lapsed Catholic), and it only confers an advantage to be white if you're the right kind of white, so if anyone was citing WASP culture to me I was like...no. which didn't parse for them - because of their American privilege I guess? idk). So all in all, it was definitely the wrong environment for me personally, but I really also think that the seasonal YT chat at the time was not the greatest place to be, in hindsights.

Whether this has changed I don't know, and of course this is only my decade old reflection on it with a lot more life experience now.

Edited 2023-01-09 20:36 (UTC)

Wow, that sure sounds like a wild thing to experience.

(For what it's worth I've always thought the 'Anglo Saxon Protestant' part of WASP went together -- I don't think Protestantism itself is necessarily seen as privilege, as there are plenty of poor and working class Protestants, esp in the South? WASP is more of a specific type of affluent white person who's not Jewish or Catholic or otherwise 'ethnic.' I can't imagine how this would have come up in Yuletide chat though!)

Agree with your parenthetical. The vast, vast majority of black people in the US are protestant. They aren't getting any kind of privilege from it. And, frankly, neither are the poor white people who make up the more charismatic/Pentecostal side of Christianity--at least not before the Trump administration.

2023 me agrees with you. pre-2010 (idk, 2008?) me had no clue and was confronted with the abbreviation for the first time and faced people who had different ideas.

Oh, yes, it makes total sense that you would interpret it differently if you didn't know the context--and since you aren't USAmerican, there is absolutely no reason you should have known the context!

It was definitely very weird.

Re: Anglo Saxon Protestant, I - in hindsight - agree with you. But, in my defense, I was in my early 20s and I had never heard about WASP before, so I was mostly like "wtf is going on here", because while a lot of US culture had made its way across, it was definitely not my culture (and still isn't, I just know more now). So I was trying to understand something everyone else had an intrinsic understanding of and who definitely was not looking at this as belonging together.

Re: How it comes up... Well, pretty much but people griping about something going on or there being a genuine discussion about privilege. As these things do come up elsewhere, this was not during yuletide season but another time during the year. In hindsight, my mistake was questioning it in the first place, but at the time, privilege - to me, I'm ESL and from a different cultural background - was not connotated with white privilege or whatever but more in the "having more money than" meaning of the word (and the concept was still relatively new on fandom spaces). So I was genuinely trying to understand. That was definitely a mistake.

Boy am I glad I never encountered those communities. That sounds like the opposite of fun. What a joy-suck!

Tons of peer pressure. Which I think simply happens in closed off communities. Which is why DW is the preferable option. Heck, even tumblr and twitter are better there, because while those of course also have echo chambers, they can't be closed off unlike, say a secret IRC chat or a discord server.

The only closed-off communities I've participated in fandom-wise were password-required message boards and a couple of locked-down LJ communities. So I really don't have any experience with them, but I believe you that they tend towards that sort of atmosphere.

I think it also happens generally, just think about cults.

I've been doing fewer exchanges lately, but that's less because of any particularly bad experience, and more because I have other things to do and want to prioritize my own ideas more so I'm only signing up for ones that either have themes I'm really interested in, or where someone requests something that I'm actively inspired to write. A major reason I do them is because having a deadline by which somebody else is expecting the thing to be done definitely helps motivate me to write stuff, but I'd prefer not to need that all the time.

more because I have other things to do and want to prioritize my own ideas more so I'm only signing up for ones that either have themes I'm really interested in, or where someone requests something that I'm actively inspired to write.

That makes sense! And sounds like it will result in better writing experiences for you!

A major reason I do them is because having a deadline by which somebody else is expecting the thing to be done definitely helps motivate me to write stuff

I relate to this.

I also love exchanges - swapping things out of love! and generally have a good time. I run into the usual fun-reducing situations from time to time, like recipients who don't comment. But honestly I don't think exchanges - at least the ones we do here on dreamwidth - exactly suffer from a lack of rules, so I'm not sure *more* rules is necessarily the path to more fun. I think it's just like any activity with other people, sometimes the people will be irritating. But most of the time they'll be great, so it's just the risk you take to play.

And for gifts I'm usually very happy! I'm one of those schmoopy people who is just delighted someone made me something, lol. And I mostly stick to themed or freeform exchanges. Which I think provides generally clear expectations which people do their best to meet in their own style, and I appreciate that about those types of exchanges a lot.

But honestly I don't think exchanges - at least the ones we do here on dreamwidth - exactly suffer from a lack of rules, so I'm not sure *more* rules is necessarily the path to more fun. I think it's just like any activity with other people, sometimes the people will be irritating.

Absolutely!

I'm one of those schmoopy people who is just delighted someone made me something, lol.

I love this!

My experience with exchanges is very limited: I wrote a yuletide treat once, and then signed up for Purimgifts one year, didn't give any instructions, defaulted, and never commented on the fic I received (which was not a fandom I was super into, but had listed so that I could get a match, and used characters I didn't really know -- not a bad fic, but not one I had much to say about!).

The treat I wrote (which is my only fanfic on AO3) was well received and made me think that I should write more fanfic -- but I'm not sure if exchanges are the way to get into doing that.

Yeah, exchanges are definitely for some people and not for others! Other than Yuletide, which I've been doing for a million years, I didn't really get into them until the past few years. Before that, they just weren't for me!

I'll admit, I've gone off exchanges in the past few years, but it's not really about anyone's behaviour - I just feel increasingly disconnected from fandom as a community. I guess I always have, in that my interests (even when I was small and not online) tended to diverge from what was popular. It wasn't even a conscious thing, my brain just seems wired to pick something that nobody else would/could notice or be invested in and make that my whole personality. So with exchanges, it's hard to find enough common fannish ground to be able to write for someone else. There's also the lag between signing up and actually getting/giving the fic, which I think comes down, again, to my interests being niche; if you're not in a community with a bunch of other people sharing enthusiasm for something, it's more likely to burn out faster.

None of the above applies to vidding, though - I love vidding exchanges. I find it a lot easier to vid for a fandom that isn't The Fandom Of My Heart than I do to write for one.

None of the above applies to vidding, though - I love vidding exchanges. I find it a lot easier to vid for a fandom that isn't The Fandom Of My Heart than I do to write for one.

Oh that's interesting! Maybe because vidding involves more direct interaction with the canon source?

I really enjoy the phenomenon of the fannish charity auction, which I know is not an exchange, but which does serve the purpose of getting me to write and record things I otherwise wouldn't, for the benefit of another fan. The idea that that fannish labor is going to both a) hopefully make the recipient happy and b) make some larger contribution to the world makes me feel very keen!

Otherwise, I think I've only participated in two exchanges in the proper sense: Purimgifts twice or thrice, and Black is Beautiful back in 2021 (?). Both were fairly low-intensity, with short minimum lengths. Both were also, I think, relatively small compared to Yuletide, with its hundreds of participants. That relative lack of complexity and pressure probably did help make them better experiences for me, personally.

The idea that that fannish labor is going to both a) hopefully make the recipient happy and b) make some larger contribution to the world makes me feel very keen!

Yes, love this!

That relative lack of complexity and pressure probably did help make them better experiences for me, personally.

Sure, that makes sense!

I think my exchange experience is pretty similar to yours -- my worst experiences being either "that was kinda meh" or "oops, there was a DNW there, but it's pretty obvious that it was an accident rather than something malicious on the side of the author". I think one thing that really helps is that exchanges are a two way street -- even if your assignment turned out to be a slog to write or your gift was kinda meh, you could still receive a really awesome gift or get some really positive responses to something you created.

The only rule that I think would help is one that a couple of the 10k-minimum exchanges have adopted, where you must include some sort of likes and/or prompts in your signup or linked letter. Having some idea of what my recip enjoys really helps the writing process go well! I assume this is less of an issue for people who do mainly freeform-matching exchanges, but since those tend to be on the smaller side, I have a harder time finding things to offer that other people are requesting.

I think one thing that really helps is that exchanges are a two way street -- even if your assignment turned out to be a slog to write or your gift was kinda meh, you could still receive a really awesome gift or get some really positive responses to something you created.

Yes! Definitely!

The only rule that I think would help is one that a couple of the 10k-minimum exchanges have adopted, where you must include some sort of likes and/or prompts in your signup or linked letter. Having some idea of what my recip enjoys really helps the writing process go well!

I have been lucky enough that every assignment I ever had had a letter attached. And it is SO helpful!! Even if you don't take advantage of a prompt, you know what kinds of things your recipient likes.

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