lirazel | GO AWAY SNOBS

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GO AWAY SNOBS

Well, this is the grossest article I've read in a while (not to mention: really, really poorly argued. And short). It reminds me of peope who when you ask them what shows they watch say, "Oh, I don't waaaaatch TV." And when you ask why, they don't have a good reason (like: I don't have the time because I'm busy raising kids/working three jobs/with school/whatever -or- I can't afford a TV -or- I'm a neo-Luddite -or- something like that) but instead smirk and say something about how how all TV is awful, LIKE I AM SUPPOSED TO THINK THAT YOU ARE SUPERIOR TO EVERYONE ELSE BECAUSE YOU DON'T WATCH FRIDAY NIGHT LIGHTS OR THE WIRE OR JUSTIFIED OR THE HOUR OR SOMETHING. YOU DO REALIZE THAT NOT EVERYTHING ON TELEVISION IS JERSEY SHORE, RIGHT? LIKE, YOU ARE NOT SO STUPID AS TO THINK THAT THERE IS SOMETHING INHERENTLY INFERIOR ABOUT THIS MEDIUM, RIGHT? I really, really hate people who think some mediums have more value than others. Like, I do not like comic books/graphic novels, okay? I have the world's hardest time investing in them. But I will die on this hill: they can be art just like anything else. Just because they don't speak to me doesn't mean that Maus or Persepolis or something isn't genius. GTFO with your snobbery.

Whenever someone says something like that, I always think of one of the most ubiquitous phrases in our house growing up: "Why not? Think you're too good?" Maybe I should start asking people that.

Ugh. If you genuinely enjoy reading Pynchon more than you do Hunger Games, that is cool with me! And if you want to argue that Shakespeare has contributed more to humanity than Stephanie Meyer, again: cool! And if the latest hipster-approved band moves your soul more than ABBA or something: that is FINE. But do not think you are superior because of your tastes and please take the time to acknowledge that there are people out there who don't just blindly follow trends but who actually connect to something in the art that you find disposable. I am not going to stand here and argue that everything I love is objectively good, because some of it is not. Some of it is poorly written or overproduced or otherwise fails from more "objective" standards. But I have reasons for loving all of the things I love, and if reason knows them not, that's okay.

I feel that I can say all of this because I used to be a snob and now I am not. When someone likes something that I find worthless, you know what I do? I ask them why they like it! And usually they have a reason for it! They saw something in a character that they identify with and that they don't normally see portrayed. Or they connect emotionally to a situation that they've been through, too. Or a relationship reminds them of someone precious in their lives. THESE ARE PERFECTLY LEGITIMATE REASONS TO LOVE SOMETHING. It doesn't all have to be about objective quality. Reason is not automatically better than emotions. Guess what? We need both in order to be human. And a lot of our problems come when we prize one over the other, sure. But we need both.

Ugh. Sorry for the word-vomit. I just have a lot of feelings.

[eta] Someone left this quote in the comments:

"When I became a man I put away childish things, such as the fear of childishness and the desire to be terribly grown up." - C. S. Lewis.

Gah. I just love that man so much. He always has the best quotes.

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I confess, my response to that article was: LOLno, Joel Stein.

Either he said that and meant it, in which case he's an idiot, or he said that to be Controversial, in which case he's a troll.

I do also agree with everything you've said above. However, this time around I really couldn't get beyond my LOLno reaction.

Your response was the correct response.

Either he said that and meant it, in which case he's an idiot, or he said that to be Controversial, in which case he's a troll.

Either he said that and meant it, in which case he's an idiot, or he said that to be Controversial, in which case he's a troll.

'Course, those two things aren't mutually exclusive. Joel Stein is vast and contains multitudes. He's perfectly capable of being an idiotic troll.

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snickfic - 2012-04-05 18:54 (UTC) - Expand

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next_to_normal - 2012-04-05 21:44 (UTC) - Expand

Your feelings are my feelings, and you are wise. People like that make me furious. What am I supposed to do, congratulate them on being able to read Shakespeare?

(Funny enough, I actually have a habit of replying that "I don't watch TV" ;).)

What am I supposed to do, congratulate them on being able to read Shakespeare?

Shakespeare is awesome! But exactly: I am not impressed that you can read him! Or that you like him! Nearly everyone likes him once they understand what he's saying! I am not impressed by you!

You watch TV! What are you talking about? Or did you just gain your knowledge of TVD by fandom osmosis? ;D

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upupa-epops.livejournal.com - 2012-04-05 15:23 (UTC) - Expand

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penny-lane-42.livejournal.com - 2012-04-05 15:34 (UTC) - Expand

This article ... ugh...

Thanks, Mr. Chauvinist "Adult" - let's blast an entire genre and MOVEMENT of fiction because it is "lesser" than.

This is an argument against scifi/fantasy literature that is DISGUISED as an argument about "age groups" ... really? Because replace "Adult" with "Male" and "Child" with "Female" and there isn't much different about this article than the many other arguments against genre-fiction, or literature aimed at women.

Stick to Realism, douchebag - I'm sure it will serve you well, after all- all the heroes are "Adults" right?

#i haz angst
#forgive my over-reaction to EVERYTHING

Oh, yes! All of my feelings on this are deeply tied to my feelings about snobbery re: genre fiction and things like that.

#forgive my over-reaction to EVERYTHING

Story of my life, really.

I can't understand why people feel the need to tell me they hate something they've never read, watched or heard. Where did you get your opinion, the ether?

I've heard I hate science fiction. I hate television. I hate modern music. Wow, way to cut yourself off from new experiences. You don't have to love any of these things, but don't act like me liking them makes me less.

Absolutely.

I've heard I hate science fiction. I hate television. I hate modern music. Wow, way to cut yourself off from new experiences. You don't have to love any of these things, but don't act like me liking them makes me less.

Yup!

lollllllllll, that article was making the rounds on tumblr so we could all be outraged about it and just.....WHY. Like literally yesterday I was having a conversation with a friend of mine about how we wish that things would be judged as good on the basis of.....WHETHER OR NOT THEY ARE GOOD. To be fair our conversation was about fannish purism/judging an adaptation solely on whether it matches its source material perfectly, but I FEEL THE SAME BASIC IDEA APPLIES HERE. And I will even happily concede that there are some things you Just Shouldn't Change when adapting a work! But dismissing whole works/people who like those works based on them being directed at children and therefore childish is actually the silliest most useless meter for anything ever. Like, oops, it doesn't matter how well-written or well-acted or well-crafted something is; if its target audience is under eighteen, it's automatically "mindless" and not of any serious value whatsoever.

(See also: people saying it's ridiculous to get emotional over something animated. ANIMATION IS.........JUST ANOTHER MEDIUM, FOLKS.............)

I can only imagine how tumblr was up in arms about it.

how we wish that things would be judged as good on the basis of.....WHETHER OR NOT THEY ARE GOOD

YES YES YES.

Like, oops, it doesn't matter how well-written or well-acted or well-crafted something is; if its target audience is under eighteen, it's automatically "mindless" and not of any serious value whatsoever.

Because kids are a different species, of course, and it's not like the things we go through as children affect us later and reading about people going through similar things might have EMOTIONAL RESONANCE for us or something.

ANIMATION IS.........JUST ANOTHER MEDIUM, FOLKS.............)

I 100% agree! As with comics, I have a harder time investing in it, but that is totally my issue and does not reflect on the medium at all.

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upupa-epops.livejournal.com - 2012-04-05 15:42 (UTC) - Expand

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I feel like all I ever do lately is rant about the subjectivity of art, but it is IMPORTANT, dangit!

Oh, yes. So much of this. I hate when people act like it's dumb that I really like Tv. Whatever, not all Tv is the same, and you're not even bothering to ask me *what* I like about Tv. Like, maybe I can talk about Tv more eloquently than you can talk about Mozart. Maybe not, but you don't know!

And, yeah, I am willing to get excited about all kinds of things, and to accept your excitement about them. And also, please tell me about the things you like. I don't care if it's Hellenistic sculpture or Call of Duty.

I think snobbery, especially cultural and geek snobbery, is another way of creating hierarchies and enforcing class distinctions where they really don't exist. All cultural artifacts are interesting in some way, regardless of their perceived merit and worth, and all media are capable of conveying things. I thought that was kinda a given. ;)

Whatever, not all Tv is the same, and you're not even bothering to ask me *what* I like about Tv. Like, maybe I can talk about Tv more eloquently than you can talk about Mozart.

Exactly!

think snobbery, especially cultural and geek snobbery, is another way of creating hierarchies and enforcing class distinctions where they really don't exist. All cultural artifacts are interesting in some way, regardless of their perceived merit and worth, and all media are capable of conveying things. I thought that was kinda a given. ;)

This is absolutely true, but apparently some people don't get it.

I saw that yesterday and was thinking of posting it. If you read all the other opinions in that article, it becomes clear Joel Stein is talking out of his ass. I personally want to ask Joel if we're supposed to be reading 50 Shades of Gray, the other big bestseller people are talking about. Is there some YA out there that is less than stellar? Of course. There's also adult books (like 50 Shades of Gray) that are absolutely terrible. But they fill a need in the readership for some inexplicable reason. Maybe Twilight and 50 Shades of Gray are giving something to their readers that they don't get anywhere else. And that's okay. What's not okay is getting seven friggen' figures for it - when it started out as Twilight fanfiction!

He should have just said adults should read good books, be they YA, Children's, or adult books.

Yeah, I LOVE how his opinion is universally panned in the comments. Gave me faith in the human race.

Ugh this article gets under my skin. I can't stand the "oh you're reading that [insert name of YA novel] - isn't it for kids?" It drives me crazy! I used to be very quiet about things I watched/read until I realized that it's ridiculous to limit myself like that for fear of people who will judge my taste. I love to hear people explain the why - especially if it's completely different from my own.

it's ridiculous to limit myself like that for fear of people who will judge my taste. I love to hear people explain the why - especially if it's completely different from my own

*fistbump of solidarity*

Go you!

That article didn't bother me because Stein's writing is such utter shite. (HAI WRITING SNOB HAI)

It's just hilarious to me that this dude who can barely form a coherent sentence, let alone an elegantly constructed argument, is playing the I AM SUPERIOR card.

You can't walk the walk, Stein. Sit the fuck down and shut the fuck up. You're making legit writing snobs look bad by impugning their credentials, damn. NOT ONE OF US. NOT ONE OF US.

~~~

No but in all seriousness, his argument is tripe and dripping with sexism. I hate people who think they're smart when in reality they're just following the whiff of intellectual elitism that they kneejerk recognize and imbue with male entitlement.

I've only ever read his ridiculous articles, so I'm very, very glad I've stayed away from his books.

I hate people who think they're smart when in reality they're just following the whiff of intellectual elitism that they kneejerk recognize and imbue with male entitlement.

This sentence made me explode with love.

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angearia.livejournal.com - 2012-04-05 16:46 (UTC) - Expand

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angearia.livejournal.com - 2012-04-05 16:48 (UTC) - Expand

When I became a man I put away childish things, such as the fear of childishness and the desire to be terribly grown up.

Or as a great thinker of this age put it:

I loooove that one! ♥

xkcd is the best.

What? What?

Not only does that article insult adults for enjoying YA lit, but it also insults young adult authors and young adults. Is he trying to say that people who write for teenagers are somehow less capable than people who write for adults? Because why would an adult write stories about things that effect or appeal to a group of kids unless they were somehow unable to connect to "the real world" right? And I can't even wrap my brain around how insulting this is to teenagers. He's saying that adults shouldn't lower themselves to reading something written for a less intelligent, less capable audience, and that's incredibly bigoted towards young adults. Does he think people under the age of 20 shouldn't attempt to read adult literature because it's too advanced?

And what about people who write for children AND adults? One of my favourite authors, Kelley Armstrong, has a long-running series for adults (which I read when I was a teenager, which just adds to the stupidity of drawing a line between YA and adult readers. KIDS READ STUFF FROM THE ADULT SECTION) and is also in the midst of publishing her second YA trilogy. Both of which I have read and enjoyed. Does that make teenaged!me smart for reading her adult books, or adult!me stupid for reading her YA?

Edited 2012-04-05 17:28 (UTC)

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penny-lane-42.livejournal.com - 2012-04-05 17:30 (UTC) - Expand

My sister is one of those smug "I don't watch TV". Of course the truth is her husband is so controlling that he always has the remote and so it's parked forever and always on sports or business. That is why she 'doesn't watch'.

And the 'read an adult book' is just so stupid. I mean any argument that lands someone defending reading Sookie Stackhouse mysteries or Laurel K. Hamilton over The Hunger Games is a stupid argument!

See, that's an actual reason! If you don't have access to one, okay!

mean any argument that lands someone defending reading Sookie Stackhouse mysteries or Laurel K. Hamilton over The Hunger Games is a stupid argument

Amen!

“The great thing about getting older is that you don't lose all the other ages you've been.” -Madeleine L'Engle

SO THERE.

This sort of opinion drives me bats because my love for fiction has always been all over the map. I was raised on books and anime and TV and movies and musicals and role-playing games and Star Wars and Disney and a zillion other things that have shaped who I am. There’s a whole buffet of stories out there! What, I’m supposed to forget it all once I reach a certain age? I’d starve!

I had that exact same quote in mind! She was just the best!

I feel exactly the same way!

Dude. I love it when you rant.

Whenever someone says something like that, I always think of one of the most ubiquitous phrases in our house growing up: "Why not? Think you're too good?" Maybe I should start asking people that.

BWAHAHAA! Yes, please. I would love to see this occur. We should all start asking this. A movement of people furrowing their brow, eying snobs suspiciously, and asking, "Why not, you too good?" It would sweep the globe!

I didn't read that Joel Stein article, but I read about it, and honestly, yeah. It just sounds like snobbery. Why, really, shouldn't adults read YA? I mean, I'm reading Hunger Games right now, and it's better than plenty of books I've seen marketed to adults. And there's some stuff I've been thinking a bit about, but I'm not really well-enough informed to know if I'm full of it or not--but I was thinking about how it seemed like a lot of YA is targeted at girls, which means--cue the ominous music--well-developed female characters. Also, it means more female authors. What it *doesn't* mean, however, is a focus on fitting in with the exact gender-standard for women. It doesn't mean being figuring out how to be a perfect woman or finding a perfect man or other stuff that a lot of books that are marketed to adult women emphasize (or appear to emphasize--I think publishing houses and marketing machines tend to twist the content of so-called Chick Lit, making it seem like mindless, gendered fluff, when really it is just stories about women--stories that aren't necessarily fluffy, but they *appear* fluffy based on the marketing, but I digress).

Also, I've told you this before, I think, but this whole "I'm too good to watch TV/regular-people movies" thing is seriously the reason that I hate Johnny Depp's guts. I hate him. With a fiery, burning passion. Because how stupid is that? He's an ACTOR. This is his craft. You're telling me that you can get NOTHING from the Wire, Johnny Depp? Or Mad Men? Or any number of excellent shows that I can't think of? Because if you think those artistic efforts are worthless, then I don't really think much of your opinion. And if you've just randomly judged ALL TV and modern movies (because Depp says that he only watches classic, 1930s and 40s-era films) then what does that say about YOUR work? And about how involved you are in your artistic vision? It's irresponsible, I say! To act like it's cool to not care about the people you will be working with, to not know anything about your colleagues' other projects. It's especially irresponsible when you're as influential as Depp is. But whatever. /Johnny Depp Soapbox.

In short, I love your rants.

Dude, I'm glad someone enjoys them. I do write a lot of them.

We should all start asking this. A movement of people furrowing their brow, eying snobs suspiciously, and asking, "Why not, you too good?" It would sweep the globe!

You have no idea how often I heard this question growing up. Sometimes joking, sometimes entirely serious. I am all for taking it to the masses.

but I was thinking about how it seemed like a lot of YA is targeted at girls, which means--cue the ominous music--well-developed female characters. Also, it means more female authors.

This has been accurate, at least in my experience, and I think it's tied to the fact that women writers were not as welcome in the adult sections, whether it was on the literary fiction side of things or the genre fiction. So they started writing for teen girls. I mean, I read constantly growing up, and there was so much awesome, awesome, awesome fiction for and about teen girls. It was amazing.

Suffice it to say, I would like to read more of your thoughts on this topic. :D

I personally hate Johnny Depp because he's a Polanski supporter, but your reasoning is another reason to dislike him.

He's an ACTOR. This is his craft.

SERIOUSLY. And especially now, with so many really, really talented former film actors (mostly actresses, actually, which is interesting) going into TV work, the idea that anyone would sneer at that is just ridiculous.

Frankly, Stein completely lost me ~~or he would have, if I'd had any respect for him to begin with~~ when he said he hadn't even read The Hunger Games and didn't have any idea what it was about. OH HEY, THEN YOUR OPINION IS WORTHLESS TO ME. There is very little I hate worse than judgmental pricks criticizing something they haven't even read/seen. Enjoy your superiority, Mr. Stein. The rest of us will be over here reading all the fabulous books you're missing out on because you're too ~grown-up for quality YA fiction.

In conclusion: FUCK YOU, JUDGY MCASSHOLE.

AMEN!

Hardison does not have time for this bullshit.

*applauds*

If his entire argument wasn't clearly ridiculous from word one, Stein would have entirely lost me at the point where he implied fucking Pixar movies are a silly thing for adults to watch. WHAT. And then again in the next sentence where he seems to imply the movies AS A FORM OF MEDIA "don’t require much of your brains" whereas "books are one of our few chances to learn."

What. WHAT. What.

Like you say, I get really annoyed at anyone who dismisses an entire medium or genre -- particularly when they use it to prop up another. As if there aren't "adult" books that are far more inane than your typical YA book. As if somehow one category is inherently better than the other. Bullshit.

And don't even get me started on the whole ~I don't watch TV~ thing. As someone who literally builds my life around TV, it just makes me roll my eyes. Like, what, I'm supposed to think you're cool for dismissing out of hand a medium that's in the middle of an incredible creative renaissance right now? I'm supposed to think you're somehow bettering yourself by purposefully missing out on some of the most expansive narratives, thoughtful small stories/episodes, hilarious comedies, and astounding performances that can be found in any medium, period? Yeah, no.

People are dumb, and snobbery makes me roll my eyes.

Girl, your rants about the subjectivity of art make the world a better place.

LIKE I AM SUPPOSED TO THINK THAT YOU ARE SUPERIOR TO EVERYONE ELSE BECAUSE YOU DON'T WATCH FRIDAY NIGHT LIGHTS OR THE WIRE OR JUSTIFIED OR THE HOUR OR SOMETHING.

Oh, snap.

I feel that I can say all of this because I used to be a snob and now I am not.

I would love to hear more about this.

Like, I do not like comic books/graphic novels, okay? I have the world's hardest time investing in them. But I will die on this hill: they can be art just like anything else.

First of all, I love the way you use the phrase 'die on this hill.' Second, I will water that ground with my blood at your side.

<3 <3 <3

I'm all for acknowledging if things are finely-crafted or not, or if things are problematic, but I hate the smug superiority that a lot of people have when talking about pop culture. I just hate the hipster nonsense attitude of either dismissing something just because you, personally, don't find it appealing, or just not even liking things because it's not cool to like things. YOU KNOW WHAT'S ACTUALLY FUN? LIKING THINGS. There are plenty of things that I don't really "get" but you know what? One of my favourite things about fandom is reading about people gushing about stuff they love, even if I myself don't care for it.

Great discussion. I love the C.S. Lewis and Madeleine L'engele quotes so much I just put them on my facebook!

I have always read young adult novels almost exclusively since I became a grown-up. I started when I inherited some children, because we spent a lot of time at the library getting out books, and I realized how awesome they were! It's all story, to the point, without the filler. Great stories, with all the longwinded sex and scenery descriptions removed.

ugh i hate that this guy is so self-congratulatory and smug that he'll probably just write off any negative feedback he gets for this as the immature tantrum of somebody whose brain was addled by too much kidlit.

mostly i just feel sorry for people like this, who are so quick to miss something that could be wonderful for them. but i am also incredibly mad at this idea of shaming anybody who finds worthy connections in media marketed at younger people. there is something so important about remembering and recognizing those connections, to universal situations and our past selves and realizing that in many ways we are not as Grown Up as we might think.

i was rereading the graveyard book. (have you read it?) and there's this scene with an older character explaining suicide to the protagonist and it was like a punch to the gut, because it was so much more succinct than the weary, long explanations i've found in adult literature.

there's another c.s. lewis quote for this:
"a children’s story that can only be enjoyed by children is not a good children’s story in the slightest."

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