GO AWAY SNOBS

[lirazel]

Well, this is the grossest article I've read in a while (not to mention: really, really poorly argued. And short). It reminds me of peope who when you ask them what shows they watch say, "Oh, I don't waaaaatch TV." And when you ask why, they don't have a good reason (like: I don't have the time because I'm busy raising kids/working three jobs/with school/whatever -or- I can't afford a TV -or- I'm a neo-Luddite -or- something like that) but instead smirk and say something about how how all TV is awful, LIKE I AM SUPPOSED TO THINK THAT YOU ARE SUPERIOR TO EVERYONE ELSE BECAUSE YOU DON'T WATCH FRIDAY NIGHT LIGHTS OR THE WIRE OR JUSTIFIED OR THE HOUR OR SOMETHING. YOU DO REALIZE THAT NOT EVERYTHING ON TELEVISION IS JERSEY SHORE, RIGHT? LIKE, YOU ARE NOT SO STUPID AS TO THINK THAT THERE IS SOMETHING INHERENTLY INFERIOR ABOUT THIS MEDIUM, RIGHT? I really, really hate people who think some mediums have more value than others. Like, I do not like comic books/graphic novels, okay? I have the world's hardest time investing in them. But I will die on this hill: they can be art just like anything else. Just because they don't speak to me doesn't mean that Maus or Persepolis or something isn't genius. GTFO with your snobbery.

Whenever someone says something like that, I always think of one of the most ubiquitous phrases in our house growing up: "Why not? Think you're too good?" Maybe I should start asking people that.

Ugh. If you genuinely enjoy reading Pynchon more than you do Hunger Games, that is cool with me! And if you want to argue that Shakespeare has contributed more to humanity than Stephanie Meyer, again: cool! And if the latest hipster-approved band moves your soul more than ABBA or something: that is FINE. But do not think you are superior because of your tastes and please take the time to acknowledge that there are people out there who don't just blindly follow trends but who actually connect to something in the art that you find disposable. I am not going to stand here and argue that everything I love is objectively good, because some of it is not. Some of it is poorly written or overproduced or otherwise fails from more "objective" standards. But I have reasons for loving all of the things I love, and if reason knows them not, that's okay.

I feel that I can say all of this because I used to be a snob and now I am not. When someone likes something that I find worthless, you know what I do? I ask them why they like it! And usually they have a reason for it! They saw something in a character that they identify with and that they don't normally see portrayed. Or they connect emotionally to a situation that they've been through, too. Or a relationship reminds them of someone precious in their lives. THESE ARE PERFECTLY LEGITIMATE REASONS TO LOVE SOMETHING. It doesn't all have to be about objective quality. Reason is not automatically better than emotions. Guess what? We need both in order to be human. And a lot of our problems come when we prize one over the other, sure. But we need both.

Ugh. Sorry for the word-vomit. I just have a lot of feelings.

[eta] Someone left this quote in the comments:

"When I became a man I put away childish things, such as the fear of childishness and the desire to be terribly grown up." - C. S. Lewis.

Gah. I just love that man so much. He always has the best quotes.

Comments

[snickfic]

I confess, my response to that article was: LOLno, Joel Stein.

Either he said that and meant it, in which case he's an idiot, or he said that to be Controversial, in which case he's a troll.

I do also agree with everything you've said above. However, this time around I really couldn't get beyond my LOLno reaction.

[penny-lane-42.livejournal.com]

Your response was the correct response.

Either he said that and meant it, in which case he's an idiot, or he said that to be Controversial, in which case he's a troll.

[upupa-epops.livejournal.com]

Your feelings are my feelings, and you are wise. People like that make me furious. What am I supposed to do, congratulate them on being able to read Shakespeare?

(Funny enough, I actually have a habit of replying that "I don't watch TV" ;).)

[penny-lane-42.livejournal.com]

What am I supposed to do, congratulate them on being able to read Shakespeare?

Shakespeare is awesome! But exactly: I am not impressed that you can read him! Or that you like him! Nearly everyone likes him once they understand what he's saying! I am not impressed by you!

You watch TV! What are you talking about? Or did you just gain your knowledge of TVD by fandom osmosis? ;D

[pocochina.livejournal.com]

Either he said that and meant it, in which case he's an idiot, or he said that to be Controversial, in which case he's a troll.

'Course, those two things aren't mutually exclusive. Joel Stein is vast and contains multitudes. He's perfectly capable of being an idiotic troll.

[kwritten.livejournal.com]

This article ... ugh...

Thanks, Mr. Chauvinist "Adult" - let's blast an entire genre and MOVEMENT of fiction because it is "lesser" than.

This is an argument against scifi/fantasy literature that is DISGUISED as an argument about "age groups" ... really? Because replace "Adult" with "Male" and "Child" with "Female" and there isn't much different about this article than the many other arguments against genre-fiction, or literature aimed at women.

Stick to Realism, douchebag - I'm sure it will serve you well, after all- all the heroes are "Adults" right?

#i haz angst
#forgive my over-reaction to EVERYTHING

[upupa-epops.livejournal.com]

Shakespeare is awesome! But exactly: I am not impressed that you can read him! Or that you like him! Nearly everyone likes him once they understand what he's saying! I am not impressed by you!

WORD. I'm especially not impressed when you can't tell me why you read Shakespeare.

LOL, TVD doesn't register as TV for me because I don't actually watch it on TV. TV, for me, is something with awful Polish voice-over that I avoid a lot (and even if I didn't avoid it, I'd have to sedate my own father in order to take over the remote control ;) ). When I think real hard, I remember that all those things I watch originally air on TV. Like, on Monday I got to watch Game of Thrones on TV, and it was AWKWARD ;).

[brunettepet.livejournal.com]

I can't understand why people feel the need to tell me they hate something they've never read, watched or heard. Where did you get your opinion, the ether?

I've heard I hate science fiction. I hate television. I hate modern music. Wow, way to cut yourself off from new experiences. You don't have to love any of these things, but don't act like me liking them makes me less.

[madcap-shiny.livejournal.com]

lollllllllll, that article was making the rounds on tumblr so we could all be outraged about it and just.....WHY. Like literally yesterday I was having a conversation with a friend of mine about how we wish that things would be judged as good on the basis of.....WHETHER OR NOT THEY ARE GOOD. To be fair our conversation was about fannish purism/judging an adaptation solely on whether it matches its source material perfectly, but I FEEL THE SAME BASIC IDEA APPLIES HERE. And I will even happily concede that there are some things you Just Shouldn't Change when adapting a work! But dismissing whole works/people who like those works based on them being directed at children and therefore childish is actually the silliest most useless meter for anything ever. Like, oops, it doesn't matter how well-written or well-acted or well-crafted something is; if its target audience is under eighteen, it's automatically "mindless" and not of any serious value whatsoever.

(See also: people saying it's ridiculous to get emotional over something animated. ANIMATION IS.........JUST ANOTHER MEDIUM, FOLKS.............)

[penny-lane-42.livejournal.com]

Oh, yes! All of my feelings on this are deeply tied to my feelings about snobbery re: genre fiction and things like that.

#forgive my over-reaction to EVERYTHING

Story of my life, really.

[penny-lane-42.livejournal.com]

Absolutely.

I've heard I hate science fiction. I hate television. I hate modern music. Wow, way to cut yourself off from new experiences. You don't have to love any of these things, but don't act like me liking them makes me less.

Yup!

[penny-lane-42.livejournal.com]

I can only imagine how tumblr was up in arms about it.

how we wish that things would be judged as good on the basis of.....WHETHER OR NOT THEY ARE GOOD

YES YES YES.

Like, oops, it doesn't matter how well-written or well-acted or well-crafted something is; if its target audience is under eighteen, it's automatically "mindless" and not of any serious value whatsoever.

Because kids are a different species, of course, and it's not like the things we go through as children affect us later and reading about people going through similar things might have EMOTIONAL RESONANCE for us or something.

ANIMATION IS.........JUST ANOTHER MEDIUM, FOLKS.............)

I 100% agree! As with comics, I have a harder time investing in it, but that is totally my issue and does not reflect on the medium at all.

[penny-lane-42.livejournal.com]

After being reminded about his grossgrossgross article about Indian Americans a while back, I suspect he is both.

Icon love!

[penny-lane-42.livejournal.com]

Oh, I don't like to watch things on TV either! Now that I'm so used to watching everything on my laptop, the TV just feels too far away--I feel disconnected from what I'm watching.

[penny-lane-42.livejournal.com]

I feel like all I ever do lately is rant about the subjectivity of art, but it is IMPORTANT, dangit!

[upupa-epops.livejournal.com]

As with comics, I have a harder time investing in it, but that is totally my issue and does not reflect on the medium at all.

Exactly! Personally, I don't like comics, and it's because once upon a time someone tried to talk me into reading them in a way I didn't like. So I don't read comics (and also O.S. Card) out of spite. But I'm glad other people don't have prejudices like that, because then they can tell me what happens in Buffy comics ;).

[ghostyouknow27.livejournal.com]

Oh, yes. So much of this. I hate when people act like it's dumb that I really like Tv. Whatever, not all Tv is the same, and you're not even bothering to ask me *what* I like about Tv. Like, maybe I can talk about Tv more eloquently than you can talk about Mozart. Maybe not, but you don't know!

And, yeah, I am willing to get excited about all kinds of things, and to accept your excitement about them. And also, please tell me about the things you like. I don't care if it's Hellenistic sculpture or Call of Duty.

I think snobbery, especially cultural and geek snobbery, is another way of creating hierarchies and enforcing class distinctions where they really don't exist. All cultural artifacts are interesting in some way, regardless of their perceived merit and worth, and all media are capable of conveying things. I thought that was kinda a given. ;)

[penny-lane-42.livejournal.com]

Whatever, not all Tv is the same, and you're not even bothering to ask me *what* I like about Tv. Like, maybe I can talk about Tv more eloquently than you can talk about Mozart.

Exactly!

think snobbery, especially cultural and geek snobbery, is another way of creating hierarchies and enforcing class distinctions where they really don't exist. All cultural artifacts are interesting in some way, regardless of their perceived merit and worth, and all media are capable of conveying things. I thought that was kinda a given. ;)

This is absolutely true, but apparently some people don't get it.

[eilowyn.livejournal.com]

I saw that yesterday and was thinking of posting it. If you read all the other opinions in that article, it becomes clear Joel Stein is talking out of his ass. I personally want to ask Joel if we're supposed to be reading 50 Shades of Gray, the other big bestseller people are talking about. Is there some YA out there that is less than stellar? Of course. There's also adult books (like 50 Shades of Gray) that are absolutely terrible. But they fill a need in the readership for some inexplicable reason. Maybe Twilight and 50 Shades of Gray are giving something to their readers that they don't get anywhere else. And that's okay. What's not okay is getting seven friggen' figures for it - when it started out as Twilight fanfiction!

He should have just said adults should read good books, be they YA, Children's, or adult books.

[athena3062.livejournal.com]

Ugh this article gets under my skin. I can't stand the "oh you're reading that [insert name of YA novel] - isn't it for kids?" It drives me crazy! I used to be very quiet about things I watched/read until I realized that it's ridiculous to limit myself like that for fear of people who will judge my taste. I love to hear people explain the why - especially if it's completely different from my own.

[penny-lane-42.livejournal.com]

Yeah, I LOVE how his opinion is universally panned in the comments. Gave me faith in the human race.

[evewithanapple.livejournal.com]

Don't forget him whining about getting shut down on Facebook after making a fake account for his infant son and trolling pictures of girl babies with "YYYYYYYEAH I'M GONNA HIT THAT." Truly, he is The Classiest.

[penny-lane-42.livejournal.com]

I MISSED THAT. Got a link?

What a gross person.

[penny-lane-42.livejournal.com]

it's ridiculous to limit myself like that for fear of people who will judge my taste. I love to hear people explain the why - especially if it's completely different from my own

*fistbump of solidarity*

Go you!

[angearia.livejournal.com]

That article didn't bother me because Stein's writing is such utter shite. (HAI WRITING SNOB HAI)

It's just hilarious to me that this dude who can barely form a coherent sentence, let alone an elegantly constructed argument, is playing the I AM SUPERIOR card.

You can't walk the walk, Stein. Sit the fuck down and shut the fuck up. You're making legit writing snobs look bad by impugning their credentials, damn. NOT ONE OF US. NOT ONE OF US.

~~~

No but in all seriousness, his argument is tripe and dripping with sexism. I hate people who think they're smart when in reality they're just following the whiff of intellectual elitism that they kneejerk recognize and imbue with male entitlement.