i just need to get this out of my system

[lirazel]

I would count it as a personal favor if Joss never, ever, ever used dubious consent in his stories again.

However, seeing as they keep cropping up in everything he's been involved in, I doubt this will happen.

What I really want to know is: WHY? Having Buffy find out she's pregnant? Perfectly acceptable plotline. Could be good or bad, depending on how it's handled. But WHY FOR THE LOVE OF SLAYERS DOES THE CONCEPTION NEED TO INVOLVE DUBIOUS CONSENT? If he wanted the father to be a mystery to drag things out, he could just have it happen offscreen and then have Buffy refusing to talk about it. And if he wants the dad to be a non-entity, he could have easily had her have a PERFECTLY CONSENSUAL one-night stand with someone who isn't important to the story.

The fact that he made the decision that he did...I just can't deal with this right now. Even if we've gotten some awesome fic out of it already. That's what I'll stick with.

Also: Scott Allie has made me not like him again. Way to go, dude.

Comments

[upupa-epops.livejournal.com]

WAIT. THIS IS WHAT HAPPENED???

I don't read Buffy comics, because I just don't read comics in general (this medium doesn't really "get to me"); I just know some things from what people tell me, and I don't care for spoilers. So I just opened your post out of pure curiosity. So excuse me for a sec, I'm having a "WHAT THE ACTUAL FUCK" moment...

[penny-lane-42.livejournal.com]

Long story short, the last comic ended with panel of Buffy seeing a positive pregnancy test.

Apparently (this has been confirmed by Scott Allie, the editor-dude at Dark Horse), Buffy got very drunk one night at a party (which we saw on-screen) and slept with...someone (we didn't see this). From everything I can tell (and I'm not reading the comics myself, so if someone needs to correct me, that's great), she blacked out and has no idea who the father is. Even if it was "consensual" the night before, she was apparently inhibited enough that she remembers nothing that happened.

This wouldn't be such a big deal except that this is a woman whose lover attempted to rape her in S6, who had flying-in-the-sky (literally) sex of questionable levels of consent with a former lover-turned-enemy (evil!Angel/Twilight, it's complicated) in S8, and is now PREGNANT in another case of questionable consent. Add all of those to Joss's track record as far as sex goes, and I feel like just being done with this guy.

[upupa-epops.livejournal.com]

Oh dear... Thank you for the explanation. I'll just read a summary of the two comics seasons and be done with it. I mean, I'm well aware of all the issues within the show itself, but what I hear about the comics makes me go: O_O

[sockmonkeyhere.livejournal.com]

Oh dear... Thank you for the explanation. I'll just read a summary of the two comics seasons and be done with it. I mean, I'm well aware of all the issues within the show itself, but what I hear about the comics makes me go: O_O

After you read the summaries, you can view some reenactments of them (that I made with Barbie dolls and are not in any way a complete mocking of the comics, no sir *lies*):

http://sockmonkeyhere.livejournal.com/47388.html
http://sockmonkeyhere.livejournal.com/48062.html
http://sockmonkeyhere.livejournal.com/48383.html
http://sockmonkeyhere.livejournal.com/49309.html
http://sockmonkeyhere.livejournal.com/49748.html
http://sockmonkeyhere.livejournal.com/51952.html

IDW Comics' version of post-TV AtS is included in the reenactments, too -- I just jumbled 'em all up together. ;D

[gryfndor-godess.livejournal.com]

I feel like just being done with this guy.

THIS. He is really so incredibly vile sometimes. I'm so repelled whenever I see comments about how "Joss is God" because his storytelling is not only not perfect, it's downright offensive a good portion of the time. And the particular offense of dub-con/non-con is one he's used enough times that it's deliberate, not a novice's "mistake."

A pregnancy storyline in and of itself has so much potential, but I don't trust Joss with it at all. I don't think he deserves any trust after what he did to Cordelia. :(

[penny-lane-42.livejournal.com]

I could not agree more.

And I try not to do the whole "bad feminist" thing because that way lies badness, but seriously, if he's going to do this, I wish he wouldn't use that label. It makes it all grate even more.

[gryfndor-godess.livejournal.com]

YES. Haha, I thought about also saying how much his "feminist cred" offended me, but I was like, probably shouldn't get too ranty and OT...but yes.

(And I dunno, I actually think it's not that wrong to call a celebrity a "bad feminist" if he or she is playing into rape culture the way Joss does so consistently. Cause unlike bloggers and fans, where it can get really ugly and inappropriate really quickly to throw around insults like that, someone like Joss is making money off of his reputation; and if he's abusing that reputation and abusing his characters in misogynistic ways, I'm more than willing to harshly criticize him in ways that I wouldn't otherwise. Okay, so now I'm OT. Sorry!)

[shipperx.livejournal.com]

This. What he did to Cordy was horrific.

[worldwasasong.livejournal.com]

I'm having the same reaction as the person above me. Details??? Wtf!

[penny-lane-42.livejournal.com]

See the comment above. It's not exhaustive--someone who's actually reading the season will have to correct me about details, but I think it should give you an idea of what's going on.

[shipperx.livejournal.com]

You basically got it. Buffy got Gog drunk, blacked out, woke up naked. Can't remember with who or when or how she had sex, but now she's pregnant.

[shipperx.livejournal.com]

Damn autocorrect.

[flake-sake.livejournal.com]

I amazed at how much they don't get what's wrong with the story. And the idiotic notion that they go the feminist way because they ignore the consent issues.

How can anyone who saw Veronica Mars and claims to be a fan write shit like that?

[penny-lane-42.livejournal.com]

I seriously do not understand how they think. I really don't.

[shipperx.livejournal.com]

ITA

[penny-lane-42.livejournal.com]

There are so many things about Joss's texts that I love, but his consistent need to turn sex into something as ugly as he does just kills me.

[shipperx.livejournal.com]

ITA again.

[prophecygirrl.livejournal.com]

This is EXACTLY my position on all of this. In fact, I just finished saying the same thing in a comment on my journal. This is Messed. Up.

UGH.

[penny-lane-42.livejournal.com]

I don't really care about what ridiculous shenanigans he gets up to in the comics. I really don't. He can make all the vampires glittery and have Buffy join the circus, and I may roll my eyes, but I won't have emotions about it.

But this is different. Because these characters deserve better than to be constantly subjected to his bizarre way of approaching sex. And his readers/viewers definitely deserve more than another narrative born of rape culture.

[prophecygirrl.livejournal.com]

Yes. I mean, some people are upset by a different spoiler that got leaked for later this season (intentional vagueness is my friend).

I have my own theory on that, but even if that spoiler turned out to be literally true?

I'd be fine with it. And even if the non-con didn't enrage me (which it does), it's just... sloppy in its repetition. Find a different story to tell. I got this one the first time.

[penny-lane-42.livejournal.com]

Totally agreed, even about the spoiler.

[theramble.livejournal.com]

Yeah, I'm just so sick of this dub!con trope (WHICH SHOULDN'T BE A TROPE) in Joss' work. My other disdain comes from the fact that it's YET ANOTHER unexpected pregnancy in one of my fandoms. Unexpected pregnancy? Can be good or bad. Maybe fourth unexpected pregnancy in few months in environment where abortion is still not dealt with openly? KIND OF FRUSTRATING.

(Sorry, I just have a lot of feelings. :D)

[penny-lane-42.livejournal.com]

I totally share your feelings. And this is a feelings blog--you never have to apologize for them!

We don't actually know if it was dubious consent do we?

[farmgirl62.livejournal.com]

Don't get me wrong, I think the whole point is to make this a "fatherless" child so Buffy can be a single mother. But here are the options:

1) Buffy and X are drunk as skunks, they have sex - consensually, and neither remember the next day. Is it dubious consent or bad judgment?
2) Buffy and X are drunk as skunks. Buffy comes ON to X and she seduces him. Could happen. She was seriously in a self-destructive behavior. In that case is it really dubious consent or just bad judgment?
3) Buffy and X are drunk as skunks. X comes on to Buffy and she resists him ---- oh wait, that means X is in the hospital because she could have put him thru the wall --- unrealistic scenario IMO. Remember how scared Giles and Xander were of Buffy in Bad Beer? She doesn't lose her abilities.
4) Buffy and X are drunk but Buffy is passed out. X is less drunk and has his way with Buffy. Now this is rape, not even dubious.
5) Buffy and X are drunk but X is more coherent. X seduces Buffy who goes along because she is feeling depressed and unloved. In this case I'll call dubious consent if X uses her depression.

So....I think the point of this is that there are at least two out of four realistic scenarios that make this bad judgment but not dubious. JMO.

I agree it's a shitty approach but I don't think it's a fascination with dubious consent. I think the objective was to make the father an absentee dad.

Re: We don't actually know if it was dubious consent do we?

[penny-lane-42.livejournal.com]

Given Joss's consistent, almost pathological, use of dubious consent in his stories, I just don't have any faith in him.

Re: We don't actually know if it was dubious consent do we?

[rahirah]

I think the point is, Joss didn't have to set it up so that dubious consent or outright rape was a possibility at all. But he did, and it's part of a larger pattern of using that trope in his work.

Re: We don't actually know if it was dubious consent do we?

[penny-lane-42.livejournal.com]

This. Exactly. Very well-said! :D