lirazel | This is really 101, I know, but it's been on my mind lately

Hm, I think the best immunization you can give kids against that kind of bullshit is a strong sense of self worth and critical thinking. It's important to learn that you need to question what the people before you did, to think things through for yourself and see if they really make sense to you.

Might not make for the easiest children, but I think it makes for those who can walk by hostile and oversimplyfied believe systems.

This is very true. Very true. But at the same time, society is such a potent force.

Like, my (beautiful, thin) little sister is very sensitive about her weight and looks and will interpret completley innocuous comments as being a slam against her physically. And for a long time my mama and I couldn't figure out where this was coming from--my mama never talked about weight at home, we have extremely healthy attitudes towards food at our house, and our parents were very picky about the media they let into our home (very little TV--we mostly watched public television and old movies--very few magazines, etc.). And I have an incredibly healthy body image, so what went wrong with Lil Sis?

We finally figured out that it was the difference in our friends--my friends were always the "good girls" who didn't get into any trouble and who were more interested in studying than boys and who read a lot and didn't take in a ton of mainstream media. Whereas hers were always flipping through CosmoGirl and listening to Top 40 and watching The O.C. and stuff. And it created a completely different environment for her than it did for me. And it's clearly affected her.

I mean, she's still a wonderful, strong young woman, but she has insecurities that scare the bejeesus out of me. It's things like that that I worry about.

I think a family can only do so much, you can offer some things, but in the end it's the kid, who has to take them.

It might be less important to shield children from something than showing them how to deal with it. Children will inevitably be confronted with the world as it is, but you can teach them to question what they see. To make fun of it, if it's stupid.

Show them that there is never just one way to look at things.

Also kids just have to make some mistakes, sometimes you have to have completely stupid interests for a while and work out for yourself that they're just not really all that great. I firmly believe that we learn our whole lives and sometimes a woman needs to get 30 or 40 or even older to realize how to defend herself against society's pitfalls.

Wisdom.

Even though it means a lack of power in a lot of ways, I'm glad I'm a woman and not a man. I just imagine it's so much harder for men to emerge from the poisonous environment unscathed.

YES. I love this post and agree with it so much. There's so much emphasis on correcting sexist notions about women in today's society that I think most people forget the prevalent notions about masculinity are almost as bad and damaging. It's just easier to ignore/forget about that damage because the negative effects of most traditionally "masculine" traits are felt by others and don't hurt the men themselves.

I do think that the ideas hurt men as well, especially men who don't easily fit into that sort of masculine ideal. But it's just harder to see because it aligns with our societal definitions of power.

We absolutely have to talk about these things. And I really want to see more guys step forward and say, "Let's talk about masculinity. Let's restructure it. Let's do this." Wouldn't that be awesome? It does happen, but not enough.

That's funny. Because I was thinking about this same business in re: Dr. Horrible. How concepts of masculinity end up drowning out individual identities and ultimately making people behave in heinous ways.

Also: word. I feel the same way--I'm happy to be a woman. I think we have more forces out there helping us to defy and question all the subliminal messages that we hear. Men really don't have that unless they take women's studies courses--which, let's face it, not many do because even in that small act, they are opening themselves up to have their masculinity challenged (not by the course and the concepts therein, but by their peers, parents, etc.).

And I've thought a lot about if I were to have kids (especially a boy) how I'd try and impart them importance of feminism. It just seems like there's so many walls. Because you, of course, want your kid to fit in, but good grief. Then they have to do stuff like play sports or video games or video games about sports. And all of that seems like it'd deliver the message opposite to the one I believe.

Also--I have a story. My boyfriend has a friend who coaches little league football (this guy doesn't have any kids--he just coaches for kicks, I guess). The kids are pretty young, like 8 or 9. During one practice, a little boy was staring off into the distance while the coach-friend was talking strategy.

Coach friend: TIM! What are you looking at?!
Tim: A butterfly.
Coach friend: WHAT'S MORE IMPORTANT--BUTTERFLIES OR FOOTBALL?!
Tim: [pause] Butterflies.
Coach friend: [Raises arm and points into the distance] Run to the fence.

I wasn't there when that when down--but when I heard the story, I was both laughing and ANGRY. And I was all: If I had been there and I was that kid's mom I would've beat coach-friend down with the fury of a thousand fists! No one ruins my special snowflake's love of butterflies! NO ONE.

I'm not sure how that story ties in--but I'm pretty sure it does somehow. Traditional concepts of masculinity suck.

Oooh! That's so cool (and very, very true) about Dr. Horrible. And all the characters are victims of it, but it kills Penny outright.

I think we have more forces out there helping us to defy and question all the subliminal messages that we hear.

Agreed.

And we really need masculine studies courses, too. And to make women's studies more available--we didn't have one at my school (for lots of reasons, one being it's very small and can't offer everything) though I got a lot of it through other classes with a specific feminist professor. But the education just isn't there for guys.

Because you, of course, want your kid to fit in, but good grief. Then they have to do stuff like play sports or video games or video games about sports. And all of that seems like it'd deliver the message opposite to the one I believe.

Exactly! Scary.

Tim: [pause] Butterflies.

I love this kid.

: If I had been there and I was that kid's mom I would've beat coach-friend down with the fury of a thousand fists! No one ruins my special snowflake's love of butterflies! NO ONE.

I know! Especially in light of all the new information coming out about how football affects brains. SCARY STUFF. I don't think I'd let my kids play football. It freaks me the hell out.

Oh, the story definitely ties in. Yes.

Traditional concepts of masculinity suck.

Yes.

And like, when people lament the whole "There aren't any real men anymore!" thing, I'm always torn. Because I think a lot of them are wanting all men to be Don Draper and obviously that is AWFUL. But on the other hand, I do think men are allowed to be adolescents much longer in our society and that is awful, too! I don't want that either! I want men who act like adults!

Thoughts I have. Have an icon of Spike and Angel trying to out masculinize each other.

And like, when people lament the whole "There aren't any real men anymore!" thing, I'm always torn. Because I think a lot of them are wanting all men to be Don Draper and obviously that is AWFUL.

Oooh. You should read this article. I think it does the best ever job of explaining the weird fixation everybody has on Don Draper (and there's bonus Tina Fey!).

Also--yes to the grown up men. I can't remember whether that article touches on the problem with Man Child Syndrome--and all the Jud Apatow movies that are made glorying in man-childhood. But yeah. I mean, I get that they're rebelling against the yoke of traditional masculinity by acting like a bunch of oversexed imbeciles--but there has to be a better way to express their discontent than that. It's so unproductive--and all it ultimately does is reinforce--and even strengthen--all the traditional gender roles that are thrust on women. Because we have to mommy them well into their 30s. It just doesn't help anybody.

Oooh! I can't wait to read that!

AND YES. Judd Apatow et. al. is exactly what I'm talking about.

It's so unproductive--and all it ultimately does is reinforce--and even strengthen--all the traditional gender roles that are thrust on women. Because we have to mommy them well into their 30s. It just doesn't help anybody.

YES YES YES.

Especially in light of all the new information coming out about how football affects brains. SCARY STUFF.

Do tell. *is curious*

A group of neurologists has been studying how consistent head trauma affects pro football players. They studied the brains of a bunch of them who've died and found that every single one had, to one degree or another, a very serious kind of brain disease caused by consistent head trauma. It affects the reasoning and memory parts of the brain, and apparently dementia is much more common amongst former players than in the general population.

Here's an older study, quoted in the New York Times:

But in September 2009, a study commissioned by the N.F.L. reported that Alzheimer's disease or similar memory-related diseases appear to have been diagnosed in the league's former players vastly more often than in the national population — including a rate of 19 times the normal rate for men ages 30 through 49.

Considering that the average of death for a pro football player is something like 52...yeah. It pretty much messes you up.

The NFL has put in place some really big penalties for "egregious" hits and they seem to be really shaken by the whole thing. Here is a bit more.

It was a big topic of discussion on NPR yesterday.

Whoa. *is freaked out*

Thankfully, Australian football has none of those problems - but every time I watch a game I am continually amazed by how none of the players are breaking their necks. Seriously! The stuff they do...

Yeah, "soccer" (I use the word only to distinguish) players I think don't have anything like the consistent hard hits that American football players do. The way they tackle has shifted from a sort of "Pounce on that guy, wrap your arms around him, and drag him down" to "Turn yourself into a human javelin and knock him over with the sheer force of your massive velocity." It's a very, very bad thing.

But pro atheltes/world-competitive ones just blow my mind. Even if I was so inclined and talented, I don't think I'd do it--it really does end up tearing up your body long-term, and in most sports you hit your peak young. Then what will you do?

You realise I'm not talking about soccer... right?

Yeah, I don't think I'd let my kids do ballet - just from having seen what it does to your feet.

I did't! I thought you'd shifted the topic!

Of course, players do break their necks. A college player here just broke his about a week ago. Really tragic.

Yeah, I don't think I'd let my kids do ballet - just from having seen what it does to your feet.

Agreed.

Edited 2010-10-26 19:46 (UTC)

No, what I mean is, Australian football is IN NO WAY soccer. It's completely different. And involves plenty of potential neck-breaking.

Aha. So it looks like it resembles rugby? No pads, and such.

Sort of vaguely. No pads, and a similar shape of ball.

But it also involves hugely big kicks, and jumping up in the air to-

...you know what? Watch this. Three minutes long, and it'll give you a better idea of what I'm talking about than anything I could ever describe.

As soon as I get home. *crosses heart*

That's actually really cool! I think I like it way better than our football--there seems to be more skill involved, rather than brute force. I'm not a fan of brute force, usually. It kind of looks like if you combined American football and soccer with a little cheerleading tower-building thrown in. ;D

And when they like climb up on top of each other to catch the ball! THAT IS SO COOL! But you're right--it's a wonder they don't break their necks.

How big of a deal is the sport in general? I'd say football is America's #1 sport--sorry, baseball. Something like soccer would rank way, way low. The stadiums in those shots looked kinda empty when the cameras pulled back.

It is pretty cool. Certainly extremely fun to watch. And very exciting!

How big a deal is it? Hmm...

Let me put it this way: you know how, at camps, or in new schools, or other places where they go round the circle and make you all introduce yourselves, they'll sort of end up going "Okay, what's your name, what job do you do, and what colour is your toothbrush?" - you know the sort of thing.
Well, in Victoria, one of the questions will always be "What team do you go for?" And they don't even say which sport they're talking about - just assume you know it's footy.

Aussie Rules is HUGE down here.

It's not as major in the rest of Australia, though. Most of the teams are from Victoria; although they're starting to get more from the other states.

On the other hand, we definitely have a different kind of sporting culture from you guys: no sports scholarships, for instance. The idea of "college football" is completely foreign to us (heh - literally).

Aha. Yeah, that's a bit how college football is in the South--the assumption is always going to be that you root for an SEC team.

no sports scholarships, for instance. The idea of "college football" is completely foreign to us (heh - literally).

That is a very, very good thing. *is envious*

Also! What's interesting is that the NFL and their penalties for egregious hits are totally disingenuous. First, because according to the documentary I saw on it, the small hits do at least as much damage as the little hits--and by small hits, I mean when they first come off the line of scrimmage and ram into each other--like they do 40 times per game--each of those hits is the equivalent of a car accident in which you're traveling 40 mph. And that's not even considered a "hit" in football. That's just the run of the mill stuff.

Also, they penalize players for bad hits, or helmet-to-helmet hits--but then they turn around and market photos of those hits, thus encouraging players to continue their violent play. See: http://morninggloria.tumblr.com/post/1358665228/tlmonahan-filed-under-i-love-hypocrisy#notes

Fascinating. And sad. And true.

And fascinating that I am fascinated by this when I don't even care about football. I was riveted to the NPR coverage. Also, it gave me something to talk to my granddaddy about. We have zero in common, so that was good.

I think what she's referring to is a bunch of recent studies that show that the repeated impact to the head that occurs in football (specifically American football, though it probably translates into other contact sports as well), causes a sort of low-grade brain damage.

There was a professional football player, who about 3 years ago, committed suicide. Over the course of his career he'd incurred an unusually high number of concussions. When they did the autopsy, they found that his brain--that of a 40 yr old man--had the appearance of an 80 yr old's. The player's wife later came forward and said that his short term memory was mostly gone--he essentially was suffering from dementia at 40 years old.

There was even a documentary I saw on HBO about it. A guy is starting a research foundation that gets NFL players to donate their brains after they die to study the effect of the impacts they endured while playing. Right now he has only a handful of actual brains (but several more pledges)--but it appears to be a pretty widespread phenomenon.

Ha! Oh look! While I was typing all this, y'all typed like 40 comments. I type slowly, apparently.

lol! I have a friend whose son played soccer for a while. Well, only for one season because he preferred to pick flowers during the game than play. It was kind of adorable.

I do think that the difficulties of being a man (and raising boys) is not addressed nearly as much as it should be. Women have to deal with a lot of crap, but I agree that for the most part that crap is out in the open and up for discussion. Body image, sexuality, violence, inequality, etc. are all things that are openly talked about. It still seems somewhat taboo, however, to discuss similar issues that affect men. I think it all boils down to that very damaging stereotype that women can talk about their feelings while men can't. A lot of men probably don't feel comfortable discussing their negative body image, or abuse they may be suffering at the hands of their partner, or the idea that they aren't "man" enough according to social norms. I always find it heartbreaking when my nephews give up certain things because they are considered "wimpy" or "girly" by their peers. I know that my nieces will face a ton of issues as they grow up as well (and possibly even more issues), but I can't help but think that they will have so many more resources at their disposal for dealing with those issues.

Yes. Women have fought so hard to create the space to talk about these things. We've battled for it and finally we can talk about them. But there hasn't been an equal battle for men. And I don't necessarily want women to refocus their energies in that direction because goodness knows we still have so much to accomplish on behalf of women. But I want more men to speak up and say, "We need to talk about this." There are guys doing it, but we need more.

I think it all boils down to that very damaging stereotype that women can talk about their feelings while men can't.

YES. THIS LIE IS EVIL.

I always find it heartbreaking when my nephews give up certain things because they are considered "wimpy" or "girly" by their peers. I know that my nieces will face a ton of issues as they grow up as well (and possibly even more issues), but I can't help but think that they will have so many more resources at their disposal for dealing with those issues.

Exactly. It breaks my heart.

I LOVE THAT BOOK.

LET'S ALL ACT SURPRISED THAT I'VE ALREADY READ IT.

LOL LOOK AT THAT SHOUTOUT TO ME IN THIS POST LOOK AT MY OBSESSION WITH MASCULINITY STUDIES LOOK AT IT.

YOU'VE READ IT? SERIOUSLY? I THINK I JUST HAD A HEART ATTACK.

When I think of masculine studies, I think of you.

UM YES. A YEAR AND A HALF AGO. IT IS STUNNING. AND ON MY BOOKSHELF AT HOME LIKE A CHAMP.

Yeah, not surprised at all. There are so many gender books I want to read. So many. I just turn into a flaily thing when I do. I was freaking out the entire time I was reading How to Suppress Women's Literature. FREAKING. OUT.

It sounds really interesting! I've had a lot of conversations with my recently-ex along similar lines. I've always (well, not always, for a while) felt uneasy about being a man, and then I've felt uneasy about my unease. She said that she remembered a time when she was on her period when she was 14, and thought, "Well, this is painful, but I'm still glad I'm not a boy." Which you know, a lot of that has to do specifically with that I think people actually do want to be their current gender (I don't want to be a woman), but I think the fact that the problems men have are not trivial is sometimes a little overlooked. Or rather, men can complain all they want to if they do so in a "masculine" way, which probably involves yelling.

Anyway. I actually do want to be a man. There's lots of traits coded as masculine that are very positive, and many of them I feel I lack. I also don't want to be a bad man, and, well, you're right that the man at a society level is not a good goal.

I know what you mean about unease--I feel that unease about being white. I think it comes along with conciousness of your privilege. You know you have it easier in a given area despite having done nothing to deserve it.

She said that she remembered a time when she was on her period when she was 14, and thought, "Well, this is painful, but I'm still glad I'm not a boy."

I have that thought all the time. Periods suck, but yeah, I'm glad I'm not a guy.

Or rather, men can complain all they want to if they do so in a "masculine" way, which probably involves yelling.

True. I think also there's the MRA kind of complaining where they blame everything on women and won't admit that women have it really hard, too, and genuine examination of the problems y'all have, which are always legitimate, though society doesn't want you to talk about them.

I remember having a conversation with one of my good guy friends where he talked about how every relationship he's been in, the girl he's with has a higher sex drive than he does (I don't know if there was actually sex involved, but the woman was the one pushing for more physical contact and needing it more). He's an incredibly up-front guy, and I was of course interested in hearing about his experience, but it made me wonder if many other guys feel comfortable admitting to that.

I actually do want to be a man. There's lots of traits coded as masculine that are very positive, and many of them I feel I lack.

Good. :D That's convenient for you. And you're right--courage and honor (true honor, not pride) and things like that are wonderful.

It's very clear that you're always making an effort to be a good man, and I can tell that your definition is not the same as society's.

Yes, being white too.

I remember having a conversation with one of my good guy friends where he talked about how every relationship he's been in, the girl he's with has a higher sex drive than he does (I don't know if there was actually sex involved, but the woman was the one pushing for more physical contact and needing it more). He's an incredibly up-front guy, and I was of course interested in hearing about his experience, but it made me wonder if many other guys feel comfortable admitting to that.

Sex is a big thing where social expectations come into play being a man, I think. When I was seventeen, I started dating my first girlfriend. Early on, before she really knew much of anything about me, I mentioned I was going to watch Chicago and she mentioned the Cell Block Tango scene, and added, "You'd like it. There's lots of scantily clad women in black lace" or whatever. Somehow it's always bothered me--because, well, yes, I'm going out on a date with her, I'm interested in women, but how does she get to decide what turns me on? And it's like that a lot. Men are horndogs, men are sex-crazed, etc. I think she was trying to indicate that she wasn't judgmental about having a high libido, which is appreciated (libidos shouldn't be vilified, I concur), but it's still such a baseline assumption. Along somewhat similar lines, another woman I dated interjected once, "If I were a guy I would get *so much pussy*. Do men really not know what to do. 'Oh, my favourite things are commitment, and changing myself.'" I indicated I was uncomfortable with that kind of attitude, and she mostly scoffed. At one point I tried to indicate I was uncomfortable with how fast we were progressing physically, and she wouldn't believe me and just assumed I was saying she was ugly, and then got confirmation from her male friends that that is no doubt what I must be saying. Formative-romantic-relationship issues, I haz them. (My recent-ex was pretty patient with me about it, too bad she went to England....)

Not to get too much into it, but I think too there is a lot of pressure on men to "perform" very well. With the added assumption that if the woman is ever sexually unsatisfied, it's 100% the man's fault. And if a woman cheats on a man, it's probably because he's sexually inadequate.

Good. :D That's convenient for you. And you're right--courage and honor (true honor, not pride) and things like that are wonderful.

It's very clear that you're always making an effort to be a good man, and I can tell that your definition is not the same as society's.

Thanks! I've also heard masculinity as solidity, which I like.

That expectation that men are ALL ABOUT SEX ALL THE TIME and would never turn it down is damaging in a lot of ways. And even feminists believe that lie--I remember on Jezebel a couple of weeks ago, they did studies about masturbation and only like 70% of the men said they did it often. And all the commenters were like, "They're so lying." Um, no. There are asexual men and men who aren't turned on in the typical way AND THAT IS OKAY. I hate that expectation. It also means that men who are assaulted by women (and though that happens much less than vice-versa, it definitely happens) don't feel that they can talk to anyone about it, because hey--they should have enjoyed it, right? This is especially bad when female teachers abuse their students: people make a lot of comments about how he must not have minded and talk about scoring with the teacher instead of noticing that that is rape/abuse, just as if it was a male teacher abusing a female student. It's a mess.

Not to get too much into it, but I think too there is a lot of pressure on men to "perform" very well. With the added assumption that if the woman is ever sexually unsatisfied, it's 100% the man's fault.

I'm glad you said that--I don't much hear about it from the male side. Mostly what I hear about is women lying to protect men's egos. And I typically don't have much patience with things we have to do to protect men's egos (as opposed to just being respectful of anyone around us), but if the men feel like they fail in that way, it puts a lot of negative pressure on guys, too.

And if a woman cheats on a man, it's probably because he's sexually inadequate.

Again, this is something I don't hear as much of, probably because most of the conversations about cheating I hear are between women. But I totally believe that that's what masculine society says.

I've also heard masculinity as solidity, which I like.

That is a nice spin on it.

That expectation that men are ALL ABOUT SEX ALL THE TIME and would never turn it down is damaging in a lot of ways. And even feminists believe that lie--I remember on Jezebel a couple of weeks ago, they did studies about masturbation and only like 70% of the men said they did it often. And all the commenters were like, "They're so lying." Um, no. There are asexual men and men who aren't turned on in the typical way AND THAT IS OKAY. I hate that expectation. It also means that men who are assaulted by women (and though that happens much less than vice-versa, it definitely happens) don't feel that they can talk to anyone about it, because hey--they should have enjoyed it, right? This is especially bad when female teachers abuse their students: people make a lot of comments about how he must not have minded and talk about scoring with the teacher instead of noticing that that is rape/abuse, just as if it was a male teacher abusing a female student. It's a mess.

Absolutely. Word on the female teacher/male student scenario. And the idea that men are necessarily lying if they say they aren't overtly sexual is a big problem, too. Plus, it hurts women, because if a man turns down sex with a woman it must be because there's something dreadfully wrong with her, and it can't be because the man actually isn't interested in sex at that moment....

ANYA: It's the hair, isn't it?
SPIKE: Nonsense, the do is fetching.
ANYA: Oh, so now you LIKE the hair.

Not to get too much into it, but I think too there is a lot of pressure on men to "perform" very well. With the added assumption that if the woman is ever sexually unsatisfied, it's 100% the man's fault.

I'm glad you said that--I don't much hear about it from the male side. Mostly what I hear about is women lying to protect men's egos. And I typically don't have much patience with things we have to do to protect men's egos (as opposed to just being respectful of anyone around us), but if the men feel like they fail in that way, it puts a lot of negative pressure on guys, too.

Yeah. I think the thing is, we're also told frequently that women lie to soothe men's egos. So there's the sense that men are supposed to *know* if there are any problems, without being told. Again, a mess. I think the best solution, really, is for both parties to feel free to talk about it, without feeling like there being a problem is the end of the world. Men are expected to know what to do out of the gate, and that if they don't there's something wrong with them. But like anything else there's learning involved.

And if a woman cheats on a man, it's probably because he's sexually inadequate.

Again, this is something I don't hear as much of, probably because most of the conversations about cheating I hear are between women. But I totally believe that that's what masculine society says.

Now that I think about it, I have no idea where that idea actually came from, so don[t assume I'm speaking in general. I think this is mostly what I implicitly believe.

Ugh. Yes. I hatehatehate the idea that guys are supposed to know things without being told. Like when their wife/girlfriend is mad at them and won't tell them why but expects them to know but they don't know and then she just gets more upset? This INFURIATES ME. We should all be honest with each other about our feelings and our needs. Absolutely.

Oh, okay. I'll keep that in mind. It's interesting that you say that, though. I (personally) would think it's about lack of emotional connection rather than sexual one. But then, I tend to value sex (I say this as if I've had it; I haven't, but I know enough about myself to know) as a demonstration of emotion rather than a force in itself. I'm pretty "stereotypically" female in that way (though I know a lot of women don't agree at all).

Andrew's into masculine studies. Not in a formal sense (though I've recced some books and blogs to him), but he often thinks about masculinity in society and how it molds men into some icky and violent roles. He's very aware of how society functions to instill such misogynistic and violent values in him, and it pisses him off a lot of the time.

Oh, and that makes him fantastic and decent and wonderful and that's why I'm dating him.

My sister's concerned lately because she's gonna be spawning a baby boy sometime next month, and she's not sure how to raise him without him soaking up all that aggressive crap. I have some advice with regards to teaching about consent issues, but beyond that, I'm a bit clueless, myself. It's not an easy question.

I find gender studies fascinating but masculinity studies boring. I don't know why, exactly. I'm just not very interested in dudes being dudes. At a certain point looking at how men are impacted by gender stereotyping takes the focus off of the very real physical/mental/emotional/sexual impact of that stereotyping on women.

As you said elsewhere, you feel a certain unease about being white. Well, I do, too. But I can't focus on that unease beyond what it teaches me about my privilege and how it informs my path and the perception of me in the world. I don't want to read about what it means to be white, and how we are all affected by racial stereotyping, blah blah blah. Not that racial oppression = gender oppression, but I think the analogy is clear.

Masculinity studies are valuable, I just feel meh when people get super excited about them. At the end of the day, the people who suffer the worst and most insidious effects of gender discrimination are those who are Othered: women, people outside the gender binary, people who consider the spectrum to encompass them, transfolk. Everyone will benefit from gender justice, much like everyone will benefit from racial justice, etc. But you can't say that someone who identifies as a cis, straight man will benefit to the same degree as someone who does not.

/soapbox

I'm comfortable with the balance of masculinity and femininity in the womanhood I perform. IRL I'm a snappy-dressing domestic goddess who can carry a sleeping four year old around the city for an hour and makes a mean cinnamon roll. This has caused me a lot of difficulty relationship-wise with dudes who don't get that proficiency in ladyness does not equal interest in conformity to the role of my assigned gender or in performing gendered labor without compensation.

Whew. I hope that makes sense.

Yes to all You said.

I don't have much sympathy for the so-called violence society doles out towards me and my fellow gender "buddies". Men are privileged and act on it, oppressing and diminishing (perceived) others. That's where the focus should lie. Because, in the end, we all have a mind and will and are able to act differently, especially with all the (written) history on the subject (so nobody in the western world can claim "I didn't know!"). If men still act like assholes all the time it has less to do with "evil society" and more to do with living the privilege.

Of course society molds us, we all strive on societal recognition and experience role models. I'm not refuting that. But we are also able to act differently to the taught model and actually strive for a better society.

On top, let's not forget that the so-called space for women to discuss matters and turn the spot light on mysogyny isn't changing a simgel thing for the populace of this world.

1.) This space is actually extremly limited to a very narrow place within western university studies. Western society makes up approximatly 10-15% of the world populace. Around 25% of that populace actually sees a university from the inside at one time in their lives.

2.) For every progressive law there is an equal amount of court decisions which manifest patriarchy and oppression of non-(white)males.

3.) If that space had any impact whatsoever we would actually see a change within society. But - nada, zilch. In a world where economy trumps all 2% of the world property belongs to women.

I rest my case.

(And the few and far inbetween men who are uncomfortable with their role in our society really have to suck it up. You (me) are an upright and decent human being while society gives you role models to be an asshole? Good on you! Don't cry - work!)

I think you're right, mostly (I especially love your 1-2-3!), and there's not a ton I disagree with you about except the idea that people can easily overcome societal brainwashing. If that were true, wouldn't we tell women just to get over their own feelings of inadequacy about their bodies, for instance. The resources exist! Educate yourself!

Obviously what society tells women is stronger, more powerful, and more damaging. But that doesn't discount that what it tells men is also a big force in their lives. And if you grow up, as many of my friends and relatives have, in fairly poor rural environments that don't privilege education and that definitely buy into traditional masculinity wholesale, it might not even occur to you to look for the information you're talking about--they probably really don't know that it exists. They just think you're wrong and they try harder to fit in. I'm not excusing them, because obviously they have an obligation to act decently, but I'm not going to discount the role their background has in their feelings towards gender.

For more, see my thoughts to

ladyofthelog.

...wouldn't we tell women just to get over their own feelings of inadequacy about their bodies, for instance. The resources exist! Educate yourself!

I apologize, i phrased my words badly. Because, that' s definetly not what i wanted to express.Soemtimes, especially when a discussion is near to my heart, i start hacking away on th keyboard, not noticing how a single grammatical slip or a wrong term might put my argument totally on it's head.

There is a fundamental difference between men acting on societal role models and women acting on societal role models. It is the difference i tried to lay out in my 1.) 2.) 3.):

Women are opressed, have limited possibilities of education, no economical power and face the very real and physical threat of being "put in their place". So, what i wanted to express is that (white) men cannot claim ignorance (i used the word "nobody", which was clearly the wrong word and also - androcentrism, much?! ;-)).

Patriarchy puts actually a lot of effort into limiting women's economical power, education and will to be free. (I wont go into other oppressed parts of mankind, but of course they do exist in large numbers.)

We are talking hierarchy here and it would be completely dishonest to tell the oppressed "get over yourselves"! So, that's really not what i wanted to express. It is why a movement of oppressed people need/profit from an avantgarde. (To pull this back to my initial miswording: I do think that educated and economically independant women should speak up and act as catalysators of the liberation movement In failing to do so they - perhaps without malice intent - become supporters of patriarchy.)

On the other side of the fence there are badly educated men - just because men unite against women, that doesn't close the chasm between men in power and less powerful men. And, yes, i concur with You: these men face worse chances to recognize their own privilege than, for example, me (coming from a white, middle european, highly paid white collar worker family background).

Obviously what society tells women is stronger, more powerful, and more damaging.

The way the power is distributed within society is probably a lot more damaging than anything that is told to women, the ideology (telling women how to behave) plays neatly into the economical possibilities of women. A woman trying to assert economical freedom faces a lot more difficulties even when coming from a privileged background as opposed to men from the same background. And these difficulties are very real economical and political obstacles, regardless of "what is told" (what is told just reflects upon this harsh reality).

I apologize again for getting all rage-y and mixing up words (as well as using "tough" language and phrases. Macho much?! ;-)).

Not that racial oppression = gender oppression, but I think the analogy is clear.

I don't know. Race obviously doesn't actually exist (though that doesn't keep it from being a huge force in our culture), but I do believe that gender actually does exist. Maybe 90% of it is socially constructed, but I think it's always going to exist. I'm not sure they're parallel in that way. And yeah, reading about being white is totally boring.

At the end of the day, the people who suffer the worst and most insidious effects of gender discrimination are those who are Othered: women, people outside the gender binary, people who consider the spectrum to encompass them, transfolk. Everyone will benefit from gender justice, much like everyone will benefit from racial justice, etc. But you can't say that someone who identifies as a cis, straight man will benefit to the same degree as someone who does not.

Of course. And I never want to take the focus off of women. Ever. But.

1) I find the psychology of masculinity and the way it's enacted very interesting. Just on an "I enjoy it" level. Probably because it's so foreign to my own way of thinking--the biggest influences in my life were always women, and in most ways I feel like I live in a very female world. I understand feminism instinctually, but masculinity is more of an enjoyable challenge.

2) Women can work as hard as we want, but things aren't really going to change until men start treating us differently as well. And I think the best way to get them to do that is for them--not us--to create a new kind of masculinity. And in order to create something new, they have to understand what exists now.

As a woman, my focus is always on women's struggles. I'm never going to focus my energy in another direction and I don't want other women to either. But I do want men to do it. They absolutely have that responsibility to work hard at creating a new definition of masculinity that doesn't hurt women the way it does. And I think masculine studies is invaluble in that.

This has caused me a lot of difficulty relationship-wise with dudes who don't get that proficiency in ladyness does not equal interest in conformity to the role of my assigned gender or in performing gendered labor without compensation.

I totally get that. I haven't had any relationships, so it hasn't been my experience first-hand, but I also perform as pretty feminine in most ways, but I'm also not interested in general conformity. I can only imagine how frustrating it is for you when people expect that from you.

100% word to this post. This is why I will always maintain that feminism is absolutely necessary - for everyone. Because it's about breaking down those toxic societal roles. Because it's about smashing the fucking system.

the rest of society is going to be inundating them with all this poison, all these horrible lies about who they are and how they can prove their own worth. Like...how can I compete with that?

IAWTC. You've hit on one of the main reasons I don't plan to have children. I'd like to be optimistic and hopeful, but let's be straight up here: I'm not happy with the world I live in, and I don't want to bring other people into it. I am admiring of people who are willing to tackle it, though.

This is really 101, I know, but it's been on my mind lately

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I preemptively apologize for being a hater.

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Re: I preemptively apologize for being a hater.

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