Hey, y'all!

[lirazel]

Get your Xander!hate on! eleusis_walks is doing his 30 Days of BtVS, and even though there are many, many topics I strongly disagree with him on, he is always thoughtful and awesome and interesting. And the things I do agree with him on? I agree violently.

Like our mutual hate for the ultimate Nice Guy Xander Harris. He basically lists every single hateful thing that Xander ever says/does and I am glorying in my hate. He also has a love-post devoted to Anya, which I haven't gotten to read yet, but I know is wonderful because anything involving Anya is wonderful. And eleusis_walks loves Dawn and Cordy and Jenny and basically a ton of awesome ladies, so I forgive him for not loving my boy and my girl enough. ;D

So join the hate fest! Or if you like Xander...well, I would like to hear why. Because it is beyond my understanding.

Comments

Re: I don't have it in me to be a hater today (maybe ever, but definitely not today)

[angearia.livejournal.com]

What kind of bizarre foreign language class are you taking??? When I studied French, we mastered the wine drinking and the cheese eating first. And when I studied Russian I learned how to order vodka in Russian, then drink said vodka. That's just common sense. You start with the basics.

Re: I don't have it in me to be a hater today (maybe ever, but definitely not today)

[angearia.livejournal.com]

I like this song! I understand nothing! But it is apparently The Best, y/y?

Re: I don't have it in me to be a hater today (maybe ever, but definitely not today)

[angearia.livejournal.com]

THERE IS A UNICORN IN THIS VIDEO!!!

Re: I don't have it in me to be a hater today (maybe ever, but definitely not today)

[eleusis-walks.livejournal.com]

I just think the show reaffirms in "Grave" -- through Xander -- the male need to protect and control female sexuality, which is exactly what he was being so fucked up about earlier in the episode, so I'm not sure how he learned or where the show is criticizing him.

[eleusis-walks.livejournal.com]

I think even in S6 there's very little attempt made to show Anya's POV and the ending of "Grave" basically reaffirms all Xander's beliefs about women needing to be protected by his male aegis, so idk. It's a mess.

So, going by most of the discussions I read around Xander, the point that he was a creep (but not only a creep) got across without any of us being beaten over the head with it.

This is interesting to me, to hear you say that, because actually? In this fandom I've mostly seen lots and lots of Xander apologia.

[eleusis-walks.livejournal.com]

the hate train has very affordable payment plans okay

[angearia.livejournal.com]

Okay now I'm imagining Xander being tied to the back of the train and dragged 'cross country. Awww. Also, bwha!

Thinking more on Xander, I felt like Cordy and Anya got the more sympathetic portrayals in the breakdown of their relationships with Xander, so much so that they could pursue vengeance and it felt justified. Actually going through with the vengeance? Well, a step too far. But they were the ones wronged. So I think the show portrays Xander as a jackass quite a bit.

Re: I don't have it in me to be a hater today (maybe ever, but definitely not today)

[penny-lane-42.livejournal.com]

Yup! The Best! That music video was on constantly when I was living in Vienna, so I feel a special love for it. That and the Scissor Sisters' "I Don't Feel Like Dancing."

Re: I don't have it in me to be a hater today (maybe ever, but definitely not today)

[penny-lane-42.livejournal.com]

Haha! I love the capslocks and exclamation points!

[eleusis-walks.livejournal.com]

Oh, see, I think the show actually goes to great pains to avoid Anya's PoV except in "Entropy", where she's played as kind of an ex-girlfriend gone psycho. Cordelia also is relegated to the background and written primarily as a shrew until we find out about her lost fortune.

[rebcake.livejournal.com]

Well, on the Spike side of fandom, there's a fair amount of Xander hate. All those apologists are apologizing to somebody, right?

[eleusis-walks.livejournal.com]

Ha. Fair enough. I am never anywhere near the Spike side of fandom, really.

[redsilverchains.livejournal.com]

I've never tried writing more than two fandoms in one fic before, so I hope I can pull it off! And yeah, I have so much love for deadpan snarkers.

The fact that we never saw Ron grow older?
Or maybe it's how much Ron grew up from age 11-17. Or, like Lauren said, the British-ness of his humor!

[ever-neutral.livejournal.com]

It's fine. I honestly didn't expect agreement from anyone. I was fairly sure I was going to get a dozen people jumping on me anyway, because what am I if not an idealistic fool. But to clarify: I have no problem with eleusis_walks's original post. The subject is 'least favourite character' after all. What I was reacting negatively to was the atmosphere of everyone gathering around to rejoice hating on something. I've had too many shitty experiences with that before. My issues, whatever. (Though I suspect not just mine.) But if it's something that you all need and enjoy, don't let me stop you.

[ever-neutral.livejournal.com]

Whoa whoa whoa, no, I wasn't referring to your post. (I think I mentioned that I agreed with your post.) I'm very up with this 30 day meme. Your post bothers me not at all. What I find a little weird is the ensuing atmosphere of community joy that hating on something has caused. It's a less specific concern, and one that I'm not at all directing at you personally.

[eleusis-walks.livejournal.com]

Okay, I was just kind of 'yikes', haha.

[shamoogity.livejournal.com]

Xander was my favourite character for a long time. I'm not sure if he still is; I have become aware of some more problematic issues with his character, but I loved Xander. He's probably still one of my all-time favourite fictional characters.

He was always the funniest character for me, which is a big thing for me. I also loved his loyalty and how he kept fighting even though he was never the one who got the glory or the appreciation, or even the one who got to be cool. I also just loved the subtle indications of his difficult home life that escalated in the later seasons and his fear of becoming his dad and of getting left behind by his friends...it all just rang really true for me, and was handled subtly over time, especially in the earlier years. He always felt like a whole, complex person. He was insecure, of course, and could handle it terribly, but it always rang true for me and made me interested in him as a character. And despite his insecurities, he was never threatened by Buffy's strength; it just made him love her more. And when everyone else got way too caught up in their own drama, he was the one quietly paying the bills, cleaning up every time the house got trashed, doing all that practical, unglamourous stuff.

He treated Anya badly, yes, but I always kind of saw their relationship as him being the latest thing Anya tried to define herself by and him putting up with Anya because she was so devoted to him and he was so insecure. Which again, is pretty terrible of him, but again, seemed like something that you see in a lot of RL relationships. Much like Spike, he was a compelling character for me even though I didn't always approve of his actions.

Anyway, now that I am older and hopefully wiser, I can definitely see how ridiculous his advice to Buffy in Into the Woods was and how horrible it was that he tried to, as Buffy put it, "invoke the great roofie spirit" in Bewitched, Bothered, and Bewildered. But that stuff is pretty outweighed by all the reasons I love him.

Re: I don't have it in me to be a hater today (maybe ever, but definitely not today)

[shamoogity.livejournal.com]

I really, really love this comment; it's very insightful and balanced. Thanks for posting.

[shamoogity.livejournal.com]

penny_lane_42, I hadn't actually read all the other comments when I posted this. I didn't realize the context, so I just wanted to say that I hope you don't take this as me having been offended by the post. You asked for reasons why people like Xander if they like him and so I obliged. It's always hard to hear criticism about your favourite characters, but I can certainly see why someone could hate him. Plus you've always been gracious and mature when I've criticized Spike. So yeah, no hard feelings whatsoever on my side.

Random commment: I suddenly realized that I am not sure of your first name. Is it Lizarel or am I making this up? I feel terrible that I'm not sure, when we've been LJ friends for years now.

[penny-lane-42.livejournal.com]

It's always so fascinating to me how we react to different people. No matter what character you're talking about, it's pretty much guaranteed that if you love them, someone else will hate them, and if you hate them, someone else will love them.

I don't really find him funny or find anything in him to relate to. Also, I just had a visceral reaction to his Nice Guyness from the first few seasons and never got over it. So it's very much an emotional reaction on my part and I'm not even going to pretend that it's balanced. He just hits all of my...what's the opposite of kinks? Squicks? He hits all of my squicks.

[penny-lane-42.livejournal.com]

Oh, don't worry about it! I'm very glad you weren't offended, because I certainly didn't mean to offend anyone. Mostly this journal is full of my ~LOVE~ for the usual suspects, so I was just letting this out of my system this once. And my invitation for reasons was genuine--I always like seeing other people's perspectives.

Plus you've always been gracious and mature when I've criticized Spike.

That's wonderful to hear, because sometimes I don't feel mature! I just want to whine about it! But the reasonable part of me reminds me that everyone has a right to their opinions. ;D

But yeah, I'm very glad there are no hard feelings. I would feel truly awful if there were, since the last thing I meant to do was imply that others can't have a differing opinion. Mine just happens to be extreme in this case.

Lirazel is my penname everywhere but here (it was already taken before I signed up here). But my real name is Lauren. I answer to both! And I feel like I'm not quite sure about yours, either, or perhaps I've just forgotten! I get so used to the usernames that I sometimes don't keep real names in my mind.

[penny-lane-42.livejournal.com]

Oh, I would never want anyone to jump on you! That's not cool here.

What I was reacting negatively to was the atmosphere of everyone gathering around to rejoice hating on something. I've had too many shitty experiences with that before.

That is totally understandable.

I had been reminded just a few days ago of Xander's saying that thing about coming back to town and Buffy having a horrible life and him taking her out to dinner and her crying and it just INFURIATED me. So this post came along at the exact moment that let me let that out. Besides, I mostly spend my time talking about the characters I love (for good reason--it's more enjoyable and more healthy) , so it was a one-time take-a-vacation-and-enjoy-that-some-people-actually-agree-with-me thing.

And I was absolutely sincere in wanting to hear the reasons people love him. So I'm glad that there were lots of defenses of him in this post, at least. I wanted this post to be more balanced, and I think people really stepped up to the plate for that, and I'm glad.

[ever-neutral.livejournal.com]

Oh, we're cool here. I understand that need to vent. I just have this knee-jerk reaction of PANIIIIIIC when I see a lot of bashing going on, because I start automatically counting the minutes 'til a big fan-war erupts.

I wanted this post to be more balanced, and I think people really stepped up to the plate for that, and I'm glad.

I am glad too. Tbh, what I was worried about was that some Xander fans might show up and become defensive and then get mass-attacked for disagreeing. That stuff always makes me feel a little sick. But I acknowledge that I was probably overreacting there. :)

[ever-neutral.livejournal.com]

I mean, to clarify - I don't think your post goes into fan-judging territory at all (which is what I was meaning with the 'unsafe' thing). But I'm pretty aware of what fandom's like, and I was expecting that sooner or later somebody somewhere was gonna start directing derogatory comments not just at Xander but also at his fans. It was a pre-emptive knee-jerk panic. Not personal.

[shamoogity.livejournal.com]

But see, I don't think it's guaranteed that if you love one character, someone else will hate them. There are characters who are just poorly written and don't inspire any sort of feeling one way or another because they are not really characters, just plot devices. I think fandom for Joss's work is so huge because it's really easy to get passionate and riled up about his characters one way or another.

As for it being very much an emotional, visceral reaction for you, it totally is for me too. I tried to give you some sort of rational explanation, but a lot of it was just a feeling. I guess it's kind of like how we're all attracted to different people in real life as well. There always tends to be this huge inexplicable factor. And it's quite possible that if I had gotten into BtVS in my twenties, when I was more aware of feminist issues, etc., Xander wouldn't have been a favourite of mine. It's hard to separate my Xander love from who I was from the ages of 11-17 when I was watching the show for the first time.