Warning: and now I will be schmoopy

[lirazel]

Okay, I should know better than to read any post that is aimed at the general BtVS fandom public and asks whether Buffy was really in love with Spike. Like, Lauren, why would you do that? You know it's just going to depress you!



But I don't think I could have anticipated just how much it would depress me. Because just about everyone there is of one of two opinions: A) no, she never loved him, even if she cared about him, or B) she only loved him in the moment when he was dying for her.

WHAT. Are we even watching the same show? I mean, I understand all about room for interpretation and since 90% of Buffy's emotional communication in S7 is wordless, there's more room for disagreement than if there was lots of explicit, "OMG SPIKE I JUST LUUUUURV YOU SO MUUUUUCH! WHEN I KISS YOU I WANT TO DIIIIIIIIIE." In case you haven't figured it out, the "When I kiss you I want to die" line is possibly my least favorite line ever. I find it quite literally the opposite of a healthy romance. I rag on it a lot. I get that. But I can't help but feel like the people who feel that way just don't understand Buffy in S7.

And hey, a lot of people would admit they don't. S7!Buffy is personally my favorite Buffy, but I know a ton of people feel a distance from her.

So. Here is a hint for understanding Buffy in S7, people: Watch her body language. Watch the actions she takes. Forget what's coming out of her mouth; it doesn't matter. I...just...look at this. Look at it! And then look at this!

I just don't understand. You don't have to like that Buffy loves him, but seriously? From the moment he confesses about his soul in the church until the moment she saves him from the First in "Showtime," she is falling in love with him. And then when she looks up at him in "Showtime"? Her eyes swimming with tears and her whole heart just right there in the way she looks at him? GAH. That is love, y'all. From then on, I don't doubt whether she loves him.

One of my favorite moments in S7 is when one of the Potentials (Kennedy? Rona? One of the two) is all like, "What is with you and this Spike person! Get over it! We don't want to hear you talk about him anymore!" (Actual quote appreciated.) Why is this one of my favorite moments, you may ask? This seems strange. The answer is that it just underlines how much Buffy is thinking about him. How much she talks about him. How very much he is in in her heart.

Which is a lot. When gabrielleabelle finally gets to S7 in her line percentage county thing (which I love you forever for doing, Gabs!) I kind of wish she'd count up the percentages of who Buffy talks about. The First would probably be number one. But Spike is number two. She talks about him a ton. About how he has a soul. About how he's their strongest fighter. About how she has to save him. He is always on her mind. (Some would say to the detriment of other things, but honestly? I just feel sorry for the girl: falling in love in S7 is like the least convenient thing ever. The First and the Potentials and everything? When does she really have time to fall in love?) She's trying to say, "Hey, this guy is important to me. I know you don't understand that and you'll probably attack me for it because y'all are always trying to tell me what to do in my personal life and I listen to you a little too much. But I'm trying to get you to see who he is and what he's given me and how important he is so you'll just leave me alone about him and not tell me that you want 'more' for me or whatever!" That's what she's trying to say.

But anyways, I said don't listen to what she says. Think about how she brings Spike into her home. Think about how she feeds him from that bag of blood (that scene gives me chills. This is the girl-turned-woman who wrinkled her nose when handing Spike a mug full of blood back in S4, and now she doesn't flinch when he's all vamped out and it's just that gross bag!). Think about how she nearly dies fighting the ubervamp to get to him. Think about how she keeps him near her. Think about how she touches him again and again and again. (Who else does she touch that season? Not many people.) Think about how she runs to him and lets him hold her. Think about how she touches his cheek. Think about how she only seems relaxed and herself when she's with him.

I think part of the issue is that people are judging Buffy-in-love by the way she was with Angel. Which, frankly, is silly. She was a teenager! It was her first love! And it was the typical, dramatic, over-the-top love of a girl trying to figure out how to be a woman. And she was so young, then. So heartbreakingly open with her emotions. So trusting. She had no problem saying that she loved.

But then life happened. S5 happened, with Glory and Dawn being in danger. S6 happened, with life after death and then depression. S7 happened, with a whole 'nother load of responsibilities and no one really to help her carry them.

The key for me to understanding Buffy in the later seasons is the scene where she talks to Giles about feeling as though she's losing the ability to love. (OMG why is "Intervention" so amazing? I adore it so!)

BUFFY: I'm just ... starting to feel ... uneasy about stuff.
GILES: Stuff?
BUFFY: Training. Slaying. All of it. It's just ... I mean ... I can beat up the demons until the cows come home. And then I can beat up the cows ... but I'm not sure I like what it's doing to me.
GILES: But you've mastered so much. I mean, your strength and resilience alone-
BUFFY: Yeah. Strength, resilience ... those are all words for hardness. (pause) I'm starting to feel like ... being the Slayer is turning me into stone.
GILES: Turning you into stone? Buffy-
BUFFY: Just ... think about it. (gets up, paces) I was never there for Riley, not like I was for Angel. I was terrible to Dawn.
GILES: At a time like this-
BUFFY: No.
GILES: You're bound to feel emotionally numb.
BUFFY: Before that. Riley left because I was shut down. He's gone. And now my mom is gone ... and I loved her more than anything ... and ... I don't know if she knew.
GILES: Oh, she knew. (gets up, puts his hand on Buffy's shoulder) Always.
BUFFY: I don't know. To slay, to kill ... i-it means being hard on the inside. Maybe being the perfect Slayer means being too hard to love at all. I already feel like I can hardly say the words.
GILES: Buffy...
BUFFY: Giles ... I love you. Love ... love, love, love, love, Giles, it feels strange.
GILES: Well, I shouldn't wonder. (frowns, sits on the coffee table) How serious are you about this?
BUFFY: (walks past him, sits on sofa) Ten. I'm serious to the amount of ten.

She can't say it. And this is in S5! This is before dying and S6 and depression and everything else! She's only going to fill this way more as time goes by!

By the time S7 rolls around, Buffy is no longer the trusting, open little girl. She's died and struggled through clinical depression. She's a full-grown woman with the kind of responsibilities a lot of adults can't handle. And she has had to learn to love a different way. She keeps it tightly inside her and only really shows it through her actions. But it's still there. Listen to the First Slayer:

BUFFY: I have a few questions ... about being the Slayer. What about ... love? Not just boyfriend love.
FIRST SLAYER: You think you're losing your ability to love.
BUFFY: I-I didn't say that. (sighs) Yeah.
FIRST SLAYER: You're afraid that being the Slayer means losing your humanity.
BUFFY: Does it?
FIRST SLAYER: You are full of love. You love with all of your soul. It's brighter than the fire ... blinding. That's why you pull away from it.
BUFFY: (surprised) I'm full of love? I'm not losing it?
FIRST SLAYER: Only if you reject it. Love is pain, and the Slayer forges strength from pain. Love ... give ... forgive. Risk the pain. It is your nature. Love will bring you to your gift.

It's a different way of loving. And yes, it's a sadder way. A little more jaded. But Buffy is the queen of self-sacrifice, and love has always been about sacrifice. Look at everything she gives up during the last several seasons of the show. That is love.

At this point Buffy is so incredibly closed off that I don't even think she tells Dawn she loves her in S7! (Which I wish she would have. Buffy-and-Dawn is easily my second-favorite Buffy relationship of any kind and is honestly the one I think is most important to her. Sort of like I will CUT YOU if you think anyone is more important to Angel than Connor.) She has a couple of nice friendly moments with Xander and that really nice one at the end of "Same Time, Same Place" with Willow (which, again: is wordless and beautiful).

So if you're looking for the big, flashy dramatics of the Buffy/Angel pairing, thinking that's how Buffy always acts when she's in love (instead of that just being how she acts when she's 17 and young and in love), then yes, you probably won't see just how much she loves Spike in S7. Because her love of Spike looks so very, very different.

In S7? They have a marriage. I mean, that's always the way it's felt to me. (Although, as green_maia points out, Buffy is the husband and Spike is the wife. Which makes me giggle: these two have always been about the gender-role-swapping.) They're partners, they keep their relationship only to themselves (I call S7, "The Season of Buffy and Spike's Beautiful, Private Love" for a reason), and it makes them stronger and more dependent upon each other. It's committed and they don't have to talk about it endlessly or analyze: they live it.

Yes, it's fragile. And they both seem too scared that if they breathe on it, it'll shatter. (They're wrong. They're so much stronger together. But they've been through so much that it's understandable they feel that way.) It's so, so private and personal that they don't want to share it with anyone else (ohwaluvusbab and I have talked at length about how much we love and adore how private their relationship is and how much it makes us flail with joy). It definitely hasn't reached its full potential yet: it hasn't reached that final, ultimate stage of easiness where they've both moved past their insecurities.

But it could. The foundation is all there. That's why I never get tired of writing post-NFA fic, because I really believe that they have all they need to have a full, healthy, adult, mature relationship. I do. And I never stop believing that.

Now. What is debatable to me is at which point she realized that she loved him. I could believe you if you argued that she didn't know until he was dying and standing there all beautiful, shining in the light of his soul and his sacrifice and his journey. Buffy's so out of touch with herself, so scared of her own emotions, that I could imagine her not having any clue to the depth of her feelings until that moment. But that depth? Is bottomless. I think it would terrify her if she really realized how much she has to give and how much she wants to give him. I bounce back and forth about whether he believed her or not. On my more hopeful days, I believe that he did. Those are happy days.

I'm going to make kind of a controversial statement: I think S7 might be my favorite season. Now wait! I'm not saying that it's the best--it's clearly not. There are so many things wrong with it that I could write a list a mile long. But it's the season of that gives me Buffy and Spike learning to love each other in all the right ways. After all the pain they've put each other through, they choose to love and give and forgive. Gah. This season is about grace. What more could I want than that?


A sidenote: I know that when I initially watched the show, I identified with Spike so closely that I saw everything through his eyes. I was like the stereotypical Spuffy fan, then: the romance was important because it was important to him. (Though I never hated Buffy, as a lot of the stereotypical Spuffy fans do.) I wonder when things changed for me. I still identify with Spike. He's still one of my favorite characters ever, the character it's always easy for me to love and understand. But somewhere along the line Buffy's perspective on this romance became possibly more important to me. And I feel like angearia and I are some of the few who see it that way. Weird.


This isn't an "Argue with me!" post. You can say, "I disagree," all you want, but I just really wanted to get my feelings down on paper and wallow in my own love for these two. angearia and I were talking just last night about how much we love them--more all the time--the kind of love that just makes you feel like your heart is going to explode. And even though I said a lot of what I just said in my manifesto, I needed to say it again for my own sake. So...don't argue with me, okay? Expressing disagreement is fine, but this is a happy post. 'Kay? Kay.

Comments

[quinara]

This post is lovely.

I'm going to make kind of a controversial statement: I think S7 might be my favorite season.

And heeee, I'm going to turn your Unpopular Fannish Opinion into the cliché way UFOs go, because S7 is definitely my favourite season. Not controversy as far as I'm concerned! ;)

[penny-lane-42.livejournal.com]

Aw! Thanks! I'm always a bit embarrassed when I post things like this, because they're always written on the fly, stream-of-consciousness without any sort of plan or second thoughts, and I feel kind of silly compared to other people's well-constructed meta. Mine is usually just flail, you know? So thank you!

Wooot! I think I could have told that from your writing: you write some of my very, very, very favorite S7 fic. I feel like you just get them in S7 and I adore it!

[eilowyn.livejournal.com]

*Reads only what's above the cut* I WAS JUST GOING TO WRITE A LOCKED POST ASKING F-LIST WHAT THEY THOUGHT ABOUT BUFFYQUESTIONS - IS IT AS BANGEL-CENTRIC AS IT SEEMS?? BRAIN TWINS FTW! *Goes back to reading entire post*

[penny-lane-42.livejournal.com]

No, I actually think it is! Or maybe it just feels that way because it isn't what we're used to? All I know is that whenever shipping comes up over there, or Spike, or Buffy's feelings for him, I get depressed!

[aerintine.livejournal.com]

I would like to frame this post.

I responded to the question - and got specific about her words at the end - precisely because in that crowd, words are all that matters. It's infuriating really. But I feel like on a forum like that, amongst the common attitudes I see displayed there, the only thing that might get through to them is pointing out what comes out of Buffy's mouth. And to take those words seriously. Because they're never going to pay one bit of attention to the truth that is in her entire body - the love she speaks with her face and her actions. They just never will. It's sad, because they're missing the point entirely.

Season 7 is my favorite season too! Not because it's the best overall anything regarding story continuity or anything - but because it is a perfect story about transformative grace. For Spike and Buffy. For Willow. For Xander. For Anya. For Andrew. Less so for Giles and Dawn, but the elements are still there. *hearts my show*

[penny-lane-42.livejournal.com]

Aw! Thank you! That's flattering!

OH YES. I agree with you entirely about the phrasing and about those people just never getting it. Absolutely.

Wow! I never thought other people loved S7 the way I do! I know that it's weak in a lot of areas (you mention Dawn, and one of the things that breaks my heart about the season is how they set her up as so awesome but they never do anything with her!), but the grace just moves me so much. I'm glad you agree!

[pamsblau.livejournal.com]

Wonderful post, Penny!

I agree with you, with everything.

Don't worry, the comm isn't Bangel centric and we rarely ask shipper questions. I just thought i'd see and hear what people think and believe in now after all these years and...season 8.

[eilowyn.livejournal.com]

and...season 8.

I love how fandom in general (not comics-centric fandom that flails on a monthy basis) tip toes around season 8! It's very wanktastic, isn't it?!

And I hope you weren't offended by my implying that the comm was Bangel-centric. Just the posters (and a certain couple who always post the minute you ask a question and tend to dominate the conversation) sometimes feel Bangel-centric.

[norwie2010.livejournal.com]

I think it is wonderful that You are so emotionel and eloquent about Your love of this at the same time. Really, You say "flailing" - i say wholeheartedly intelligent, tender, emotional, supportive. It is good to read Your words everytime You write something about Buffy ('n'Spike).

While i think S7 misses a lot of opportunities to be great - the Buffy and Spike story in S7 is just pure grace. As are You.

[penny-lane-42.livejournal.com]

Aw! Thank you! I am so very emotional, clearly, but I am so, so pleased that you think it's eloquent, too!

You're making me blush! Seriously! Thank you so much!

While i think S7 misses a lot of opportunities to be great - the Buffy and Spike story in S7 is just pure grace.

Absolutely agreed.

As are You.

Again with the blushing! You're too kind!

[maddie2927.livejournal.com]

oh my gosh I thought I was all alone in my fantastical love for season 7! I mean, I knew other people liked it, but I also knew the general consensus of how people felt about the "later seasons"

WHATEVER. I LOVE S7. WE SHOULD ALL START A CLUB.

honestly though, I completely agree with you about s7, for me it is about the moments. Another one of my more unpopular opinions? I think Chosen is quite possibly my favorite episode. ever. WEIRD, RIGHT?
I'm just fangirling you so much right now. I'm not sure any of this made sense in my histeria. OH WELL.

[penny-lane-42.livejournal.com]

It's a very weak season, it really is, but my love for it is irrational, and I'm glad others love it, too

And S5-7 are far and away my favorites. I'm definitely a later-season-lover. I love them way more than the earlier ones.


I'm just fangirling you so much right now.

Aw! You're too sweet! And yes, it did make sense, so don't worry!

[ceciliaj.livejournal.com]

I agree with you :)

I love S7, and I love your idea about marriage here. Not too much more to contribute than that, but...keep fighting the good fight.

[penny-lane-42.livejournal.com]

Yay for more S7 love! I'm surprised at how much is popping up around here!

I don't think the writers necessarily intended a marriage, but it just feels like one to me. I love it.

but...keep fighting the good fight.

Hee! Thanks, I will!

[snickfic]

Awwww. *basks in the schmoopy Spuffy-love.*

Your flailing is always a joy.

[penny-lane-42.livejournal.com]

Hee! Well, it's good to hear that it's enjoyable and not wildly self-indulgent! I'm glad you can bask!

[diamondtook862.livejournal.com]

I heart this post.

This is why I love Spuffy. Season 7 is why I love Spuffy. I understand why season 7 would be your favorite season. I find season 6 fascinating and call season 5 my favorite for the combination of plot, characters and potential!Spuffy, but none of the Spuffy would mean a fraction of what it does to me if not for THIS relationship in season 7. Their mutual, mature relationship makes all the rest worth it. It's a beautiful thing.

[penny-lane-42.livejournal.com]

but none of the Spuffy would mean a fraction of what it does to me if not for THIS relationship in season 7. Their mutual, mature relationship makes all the rest worth it. It's a beautiful thing.

Exactly!

Up until now, I've always said S6 is my favorite, and I still think it's the riskiest one with the most interesting things to say. And I think S5 is the best. But I rewatch S7 the most, so that's got to mean something, right?

Thank you!

[molly_may]

But S7 is MY favorite season! I'm used to it being a lonely position, and now I've got to deal with all you interlopers! Heee.

Anyway, YES. It's all about what Buffy does, not what she says. She's the Hand, not the Mouth, so her actions are always more important than her words.

[penny-lane-42.livejournal.com]

Ha! All of a sudden there's S7!love exploding out everywhere! What's up with that!

I know we're just poseurs, but maybe you'll let us hang out with you? ;D

She's the Hand, not the Mouth, so her actions are always more important than her words.

YES!

In case you haven't noticed, that picspam of yours is my favorite of all time. I link to it like a linky thing. Constantly.

[slaymesoftly.livejournal.com]

I agree completely. How anyone can watch season 7 (as in, use your eyeballs and see/listen to what Buffy is doing) and not understand that she loves Spike is beyond me. Although, I guess if you don't want to see it, and/or think it has to be all about the "I wuv you"s and swooning at the sight of him... But enough about people swimming in Egypt.

It's all about what she does, not what she doesn't say until it's almost too late. And I prefer to think Spike understood that. Most days, anyway. Sometimes I write him as not having believed her, but I have my fingers crossed behind my back when I do it. *g*

I'd even posit - based a bit on "Why does everyone think I'm still in love with Spike?" in season 7, and her reactions in season 6 (watch her face, people) when she's sees him with his "date" ("yeah, it hurts a little") and with Anya (pure devastation - those nitwits who think Sarah can't act are crazy), and then her line about "try not sleeping with my friends" (paraphrasing) - that she was in love with Spike in season 6. Just not in a particularly healthy way and not something she wanted to admit to herself or anyone else - especially him.

Beginning at the very beginning, you've got respect and admiration even when they hated each other. (And why both with the passion of hatred for someone who's just a natural enemy?) Then you've got developing tolerance for and reliance on each other (Buffy goes to him for help protecting her mother and sister - before she knows he's in love with her) and they end season 5 as comrades-in-arms and friends. Season 6 begins with more friendship and then there's passion and sex. Okay, maybe not healthy passion and sex, but I'm not into believing that you can have that much sex and kissing and touching without some sort of emotional connection. We know Spike was in love; Buffy was in denial. That's my theory and I'm sticking with it. :)

Sorry for taking up so much room. I really just meant to say "Yes. Right you are!"

[penny-lane-42.livejournal.com]

nd I prefer to think Spike understood that. Most days, anyway. Sometimes I write him as not having believed her, but I have my fingers crossed behind my back when I do it. *g*


Exactly! That's so how I am!

those nitwits who think Sarah can't act are crazy

These people drive me crazy. SMG is masterful!

that she was in love with Spike in season 6. Just not in a particularly healthy way and not something she wanted to admit to herself or anyone else - especially him.

Yeah, she definitely had much stronger feelings than she ever would have admitted to, but she was in such a bad place that she couldn't love him in a healthy way like she does in S7. But the feelings? Oh, yeah. They're there.

but I'm not into believing that you can have that much sex and kissing and touching without some sort of emotional connection.

I'm with you. I can't imagine such a thing.

I like your theory! And never, ever apologize for an awesome comment like this! I love discussions and insights and other peoples' opinions! You're always welcome!

[treadingthedark.livejournal.com]

Beautiful post. It's sad but we Spuffys tend to get chased away easily. I honestly think that's why we got Spacefucking. We disappeared in the mainstream, and the 5 Bangels and their socks just kept pounding away!

[penny-lane-42.livejournal.com]

Well, we definitely like to hang out in our corner because we get ragged on so much.

I honestly think that's why we got Spacefucking. We disappeared in the mainstream, and the 5 Bangels and their socks just kept pounding away!

I don't know...I still the spacefrakkin' is supposed to be very, very bad. And I don't think it's some kind of reward for the B/A fans. But then I'm way more optimistic about S8 at this point than most people are. We'll see!

[next_to_normal]

It's interesting that you touched on the different perspectives on the romance at the end there, because one of the things that occurred to me is that, as much as I agree with you, I can see how people might come to the conclusion she didn't love him. After all, Spike himself came to the conclusion she didn't love him. Even he needed the words.

I like the reference back to "Intervention," because I think it's barking up the wrong tree to expect the words from Buffy. She's just not that open. (And, sidebar, one of the reasons I have latched onto Buffy so hard is because I'm not that open, either. I hate getting to the "I love you" stage of a relationship, because the guy always gets there before me and it's awkward. I hate being mushy. Even beyond romance, I'm not a gushy person, or prone to flailing. I'm just not comfortable expressing myself that way, so I totally get Buffy's reservedness.)

That... was a long sidebar. I forget what my point was. Right, perspectives. I can understand seeing it from Spike's perspective and needing the words, because their relationship has been so confusing and complicated that it's tough to trust your instincts. But it's also a fundamental misunderstanding of Buffy's character to expect her to be comfortable with that kind of openness, so I'm not sure what to say to people (including Spike, lol) who can't believe she loves him without a more effusive display of emotion.

[penny-lane-42.livejournal.com]

I definitely agree about the different perspectives. And I want her to get to the point where she can say the words a little more easily to him because I know that's important to him. But one of the big reasons she and Riley didn't work out is because he was always wanting her to be weepy and gushy and that isn't her! And I think Spike realizes that, and after they get to the point where he's more secure in her love, I think he wouldn't push to the point Riley did--to the point where she had to break away--and it would work out. He'd push her just enough because he needs to hear it, but not too much, and she would say it more often because he needs to hear it but not as often as he might like. It would be a compromise, the mark of a real relationship. That's how they are in my head.

I'm actually more of a Spike with the spewing of emotions and the telling everyone I love them. I'm gushy by nature, though I haven't been in a relationship, so I don't know if I would be different in those circumstances. I think that's one of the things that made it hard for me to understand Buffy for a long time--she's so different than I am. But now I really appreciate her reservations.

[blackfrancine.livejournal.com]

I LOVE YOU SO HARD RIGHT NOW. AND ALWAYS.

First, I didn't even look at than Buffy Questions post, because I knew it would fill me with rage. And then I'd have to talk myself down from the roof of my house, ranting, and all the neighbors would be scared of me.

But this post and looking at molly_may's picspams just has totally soothed any budding rage (which was starting from JUST THINKING about that BQ post!).

Why is this one of my favorite moments, you may ask? This seems strange. The answer is that it just underlines how much Buffy is thinking about him. How much she talks about him. How very much he is in in her heart.

OK. I'm a dork, and I'm about to reveal my deep and abiding love for Bridget Jones. So be prepared. BUFFY HAS MENTIONITIS! Mentionitis is a sure fire way to detect the onset of love. So says Bridget Jones/Helen Fielding.

But, yes. I think it's Rona who says "enough about this Spike guy already." And the way that she says it is filled with such genuine venom, that it makes it all the more poignant.

She REALLY is sick of Buffy putting Spike above everyone else. She REALLY is sick of hearing about how great a fighter he is.

And that's sort of underscored, now that I think about it, by Kennedy's reaction in Get It Done, when Kennedy says "Is what he does best get thrown through a floor?"

Because she's irritated too. And yes, Kennedy's a bit of a pill regardless--but here's Spike, who's hurt, and he just risked his life, and you're gonna ridicule him? Most people would only do that if they were really irritated with him (which she has no reason to be) or if he really didn't live up to the expectations that had been set--because Buffy had established super sky high expectations with her constant talking-up of Spike's abilities and importance.

Think about how she feeds him from that bag of blood (that scene gives me chills. This is the girl-turned-woman who wrinkled her nose when handing Spike a mug full of blood back in S4, and now she doesn't flinch when he's all vamped out and it's just that gross bag!).

I LOVE this scene. The way she looks at him. So unflappable. The utter acceptance in her face is just... guh.

And then later, when he says "I don't remember anything"--and she assumes he means about feeding or vamping out right before feeding. And she's still completely forgiving, not at all disturbed that--essentially--he threatened her.

BUT! he means that he doesn't remember being triggered and killing people. And she says, "Oooh, that" (or something) like she's just remembering that herself.

SHE'D ALREADY LET THE KILLING GO. It's supposedly why he's there, tied up, but it has stopped occurring to her that that's why he's there. As far as Buffy's concerned (at least in this moment), Spike's in her house--in her bedroom!--so that she can take care of him, and get him back to himself.

My heart just exploded again.

And they both seem too scared that if they breathe on it, it'll shatter.

Gah! Yes. There are a handful of scenes, where Buffy makes a tentative expression of affection to Spike--and he literally stills. He's afraid to move because it will undo the affection she's offering. In those moments, I can pretty much hear my own heart break for them. They're both so fragile and afraid of damaging the relationship.

To be continued...

[blackfrancine.livejournal.com]

I think part of the issue is that people are judging Buffy-in-love by the way she was with Angel. Which, frankly, is silly. She was a teenager! ... And she was so young, then. So heartbreakingly open with her emotions. So trusting. She had no problem saying that she loved.

OK. So, I agree with 90% of your assessment. My slight departure is based on something that I have yet to see anyone else mention. So, I'm gonna go out on a (very narrow) limb, and try and explain.

I think Buffy, when she's involved with Angel--even in seasons 1 and 2--is already a person who guards her emotions. She' already someone who is in the process of learning how to shut others out and close herself off. But, like you said, she's so young. And she's still filled with that youthful optimism, so a large part of her (the majority, probably) wants to be open.

With Angel--the first "I love you" that is spoken between them comes because Angel asks Buffy point blank if she loves him. He puts her in the "I love you" corner--where you either have to say it, or it's likely the relationship is gonna go south. He demanded his I love you. And so she gave it to him.

Now, don't get me wrong. I think she did love Angel. But she wouldn't have said it without him pushing her. After the first I love you, it's easier. She doesn't seem to have a problem expressing herself--because her love was requited, and she wasn't rejected. (I think of her father in Nightmares--that her ultimate fear was this man that she loved telling her that he never even wanted her, that she was a burden, and that he didn't love her.)

What this has to do with Spike? Well, in season 6, Spike was willing to push Buffy. And I think she wanted to be pushed in those very ways. At least some part of her did (not necessarily a healthy part of her, but still). But come season 7, soulful Spike is not so willing to push. And Buffy is a thousand times more closed off than she was as a teenager. So, yeah. The verbal expression of love between them seems unlikely indeed. She has walls a mile thick around her heart, and Spike has developed an allergy to walls. They both are people who need to be reached out to.

And THIS. THIS, I tell you, is what makes Buffy's expression of her love in Chosen so amazing and remarkable. The sheer terror she had to overcome to say those words. She's someone--she's always been someone--who needs people to push to get her to express herself. But there, in that moment. She tears down all those walls all by herself. It's literally something she's never done before. Except maybe when she's on the tower with Dawn in the Gift.

And that's why, I think, it could never be faked. She'd never just throw him that bone. Because those words are so deeply locked within her, that she feels like she's risking her own destruction in order to bring them out into the light. She'd NEVER do that if she didn't mean it.

I find that scene in Chosen moving not just because of the love between Spike and Buffy--but also because of the bravery Buffy shows. She faces down her fear, and cuts its heart out. She tells the man she loves more than anything that she loves him. Right before she's going to lose him forever.

I'm actually tearing up right now thinking about it.

Was that response long enough? Sheesh. You've caught me on the heels of my Spuffy revelation/rewatch of season 7. I have lots to say.

[gillo]

There is no possible point where I could disagree. Except perhaps that she doesn't realise she loves him - at the very least I think she does after Touched. The First refers to her undead lover sleeping in her arms, and she makes no attempt to deny it, because she knows it's true.

[penny-lane-42.livejournal.com]

:D

My feelings on when she realized it change pretty often, so I don't disagree with you at all--but I can see how others wouldn't arrive at that conclusion, you know?

[sarian71]

Can't put this post to memories fast enough!

I'm in awe how you can put all these feelings and thoughts to words so easily. :)

Spuffy was the only thing that really, truly worked in S7, and I'm eternally grateful for that. The way Buffy delicately showed her love in her actions was imho one of the most beautiful things in the whole series. As was the way they slowly but surely found peace in each other.

*feels warm fuzzies*

[penny-lane-42.livejournal.com]

Aw! You're sweet! They just come! I don't know where they come from, but they do! I've been in BtVS fandom for a while now, and I'm just now getting to the point where I feel confident enough to write down my thoughts and post them. Before they, I could post fic, but not anything else. Now I just post whatever pops into my head.

The way Buffy delicately showed her love in her actions was imho one of the most beautiful things in the whole series. As was the way they slowly but surely found peace in each other.

Yes! It's so warm-fuzzies-inducing!

[petzipellepingo.livejournal.com]

Season Seven isn't my favorite but it's definitely in the top five.

They're partners, they keep their relationship only to themselves (I call S7, "The Season of Buffy and Spike's Beautiful, Private Love" for a reason), and it makes them stronger and more dependent upon each other. It's committed and they don't have to talk about it endlessly or analyze: they live it.

Yes, it's fragile. And they both seem too scared that if they breathe on it, it'll shatter. (They're wrong. They're so much stronger together. But they've been through so much that it's understandable they feel that way.) It's so, so private and personal that they don't want to share it with anyone else

Yes, that's it exactly! I couldn't have said it better.

[penny-lane-42.livejournal.com]

Oh, it has so many weaknesses, it really does. But I've reached the point where I can say, "I watch this show for Buffy, for Spike, for Dawn, and for Buffy/Spike, and then there are lots of bonuses like Anya and Andrew and Cordy and Oz and Jenny and early!Giles, but it's basically just about the Summers girls and Spike for me." And once I said that, I realized I could love S7 wholeheartedly!

Glad it works for you!

[treadingthedark.livejournal.com]

Buffy definitely loved Spike, but she was too damaged by her history to show it easily. And Spike feeling unworthy because of his new soul doesn't believe her. But you could see it, in her actions and words, she loved him. It's complicated. Which makes it interesting.

[penny-lane-42.livejournal.com]

Yup! I love the complications! But at the same time there's a gentle simplicity. It's why I love them.

[angearia.livejournal.com]

Love keeps growing here. Deeper and deeper. ♥

[elisi]

I don't have time to read this (yet), but take it as a given that I agree with you. I mean, I don't have this quote (by Jane Espenson, I think) on my sidebar for nothing. ;)

"If someone is there for you, is asking nothing of you and has loved you faithfully and unconditionally for all those years and if that person is the one that you turn to for comfort and support when you are at your most vulnerable, and if they give you that comfort and support unconditionally asking nothing in return, then whether you acknowledge it or not, that is love, so yes Buffy loved Spike."

[2maggie2.livejournal.com]

Fabulous post. I don't disagree with you, though I'm not sure I agree with you either. On the question of whether she loved him, I end up seeing both sides. That's why the comics have been important to me -- I've always wanted more clarity on it. I do have hopes for what's to come - but her having known all along that he's back is a set back for me. But I digress. I think there's a case to be made that she loved him, and people who deny that are just not paying attention.

What I am 100% sure of, though, is that Spike didn't think she did. Blackfrancine has a good point about him needing to be reached out to in season 7. He's not going to make assumptions about what her actions imply. He doesn't trust himself to make those sorts of assumptions.

Sigh. I love how close they got, though. It's beautiful in season 7, and it's a scandal that some people treat season 6 as the epitome of Spuffy. It's not.

One hopeful thought about the comics: Did you notice that Spike and Buffy have to start by picking up a narrative thread. Thanks for saving us. Last they were together they were in the middle of a story together. Her first remark opens the door onto that history.

Angel? No narrative thread to reconnect. Whatever ideals hold them together, it wasn't a story they were telling together. She doesn't have to start by referring to the last time they saw each other. Indeed, he keeps saying things that remind her that he doesn't know her story any more.

I kind of hope that cashes out. :)

[deird1]

But somewhere along the line Buffy's perspective on this romance became possibly more important to me. And I feel like angearia and I are some of the few who see it that way. Weird.

Me too! I do!

[eilowyn.livejournal.com]

Me *counts* three or four! I don't know what number I am . . .

[jennylayne.livejournal.com]

I love this post seriously to the amount of ten. :)

I know that when I initially watched the show, I identified with Spike so closely that I saw everything through his eyes. I was like the stereotypical Spuffy fan, then: the romance was important because it was important to him.

me too. But over time Buffy has grown on me, Spike is still my favorite but she is a close second. I hadn't realized that this way a "thing" for so many people.

[gryfndor-godess.livejournal.com]

I go back and forth on whether I think Buffy was in love with Spike- and I usually fall on the side of she loved him, but she wasn't in love with him, if that makes sense- i.e., I see it as she loves him as a best friend and has the potential to be in love with him but isn't quite there yet.

But I don't think that's a failure to understand Buffy in S7 (which is one of my two favorite seasons, too, and I love Buffy herself so much in it) so much as just having a different POV on love. But I'll admit, I'm relatively young and have never been in love, so for all I know, I could be making the difference between "love" and "in love" a whole lot bigger than it is.

Basically, I have a hard time reconciling Buffy being in love with Spike with the Angel-kiss and with her smile two minutes after Spike dies; but if anyone could convince me that she was in love with him, your meta could. I love how unabashedly flaily you are, and you extrapolate on their relationship so insightfully.

The point about them being married is spot on (and makes me want to flail, too, thinking about it), and I completely agree that they have the potential to be healthy and mature and wonderful together. I feel comfortable knowing that either way, whether you believe she loved him in "Chosen" or not, they'd end up together and in love and happy (eventually) post-NFA because the foundation is there and so strong in S7.

I hope you didn't consider that "arguing"! Your flailing is awesome, and as I said, if anyone could convince she was in love with him, it's posts like this! :)

[zombie_boogie.livejournal.com]

Oh see this is why I wanted to friend you - because of wonderful meta like this. I've spoken to marketchippie quite a bit about this, but so much of the conversation surrounding Spike/Buffy seems to either be about how "disgusting" they are or about their "twu wuv" in a way that ignores the real complexities and nuances of their relationship (a lot of which is very dark but oh so fascinating and achingly beautiful because of that darkness).

I'll admit that I haven't watched all but a couple of episodes of season 7 since they first aired, but I recently bought the season on DVD and I'm planning a re-watch. I'll be looking out for a lot of the things you mentioned! I think the reason that a lot of people are hestitant to call what Buffy felt for Spike "love" is because it doesn't fall into a straight-forward definition of love, either as defined by the world at large or by the show itself. Let's not mince words by trying to downgrade her feelings from "love" to "caring" just because that feels more comfortable and less significant. I don't have any doubt that Buffy did love Spike in S7, even though I agree that she didn't realize that until the very end.

Oh this ship. I haven't had the opportunity to talk about it in so long. THIS SHIP.